Brew Masters on Discovery w/ Sam Calagione

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I find it laughable that so many people on here are criticizing DFH for dumping the beer. I've read people saying it should've been blended or sold as a special edition.

Every poster on here would be blasting Sam for not sticking to selling high quality beer if that had gone out the door. I give him credit for making the decision to dump it instead of selling an inferior product.
 
Thought it was interesting that the brewmaster was shielding the mash temp from the camera - claimed that it was proprietary. Any guesses at what mash temp they mash that beast at? Montanaandy

Whatever it was, I bet it was lower than the batch that they dumped!
 
I find it laughable that so many people on here are criticizing DFH for dumping the beer. I've read people saying it should've been blended or sold as a special edition.

Every poster on here would be blasting Sam for not sticking to selling high quality beer if that had gone out the door. I give him credit for making the decision to dump it instead of selling an inferior product.

I don't think that there is much disagreement that there was no way they should have put it out as DF 120 - it would have kill the brand/segment for that beer.

I do believe that the beer was really, really lousy - otherwise they would have tried to salvage it in some manner. What that would have consisted of, who knows? When you are running a $12 mil per year business you don't just throw away $500K without exhausting all reasonable resources. Montanaandy
 
i bet if it wasn't on camera, he might have tried to do something with it.

you're telling me sam is creative enough to put out some of the weird things he's put out, but not enough to do something with an off-flavored 120?
 
Whatever it was, I bet it was lower than the batch that they dumped!

No doubt, although they seemed to be stressing the difficulties that they have with the yeast producing such an off the charts, high alcohol beer such as 120. Montanaandy
 
i bet if it wasn't on camera, he might have tried to do something with it.

you're telling me sam is creative enough to put out some of the weird things he's put out, but not enough to do something with an off-flavored 120?

Good point. Just as they were not going to say that they produced lousy beer while the cameras were rolling they probably would have tried to salvage it if the cameras are not rolling. Much better PR to say that we are going to take a $500K hit because this does not meet our standards than to say that we are going to figure out a way to use this lousy beer somehow. Montanaandy
 
Anyone here been to the DFH Alehouse in Gaithersburg, MD recently? I was there about 3 weeks ago and they had a beer on tap that was simply called "Dogfish Head Ale". I asked the bartender about it and he told me they haven't really been given much info about it, but the rumor was that it was from a batch of 120 that didn't turn out correct. So my gut tells me that perhaps they didn't pour ALL of the bad beer, that they might have salvaged some of it and spun it off as something else. I did try it, and it was certainly a different type of brew for Dogfish, it was rather boring, it was definitely missing something.
 
I had to go to bed before the end of the show and sorry for asking if this has already been said but did they figure out why the yeast failed to do the job? Can they continue to risk $$ on such a risky brew??
 
Not 100% sure that comes from the retail price. They said they dumped 400 bbl (12400 gallons), roughly 132,266 12 ounce bottles at roughly $8.50 a bottle. (Guestimate based on an average cost of a bottle retail, - a 15% markup) Brings the loss up to just over $1,000,000. If you look at a clone recipe and do the math on a 10 gal recipe vs a 12400 gal you will see that it costs roughly 35k in grain alone, after other factors including water hops labor utilities I'm willing to bet its close to 500k. Seeing as how its such a time intensive beer (I know I've tried to clone it.) I'm sure the labor is outrageous.

That makes more sense, and I didn't mean you shouldn't factor in lost profit or the opportunity cost consumed by that batch. I understand their resources are constrained, but clearly they did not incur the cost of finishing and distributing (including the retail markup) the beer yet, both variable costs.
 
I had to go to bed before the end of the show and sorry for asking if this has already been said but did they figure out why the yeast failed to do the job? Can they continue to risk $$ on such a risky brew??

They didn't give any reason for it, but given the fact that it had high unfermentable sugars (they added more yeast to the test batch in the lab, which didn't work, and mentioned afterwards that they tried yeast fuel and that even if they added "a million times more yeast" that it wouldn't make a difference) the only explanation is that they mashed too high.
 
They didn't give any reason for it, but given the fact that it had high unfermentable sugars (they added more yeast to the test batch in the lab, which didn't work, and mentioned afterwards that they tried yeast fuel and that even if they added "a million times more yeast" that it wouldn't make a difference) the only explanation is that they mashed too high.

Sounds like a lot of costly mistakes. I wonder if anyone got a warning or fired? I know if a stupid mistake on my part cost my company 500k I would be out the door or have at least one foot out.
 
Sounds like a lot of costly mistakes. I wonder if anyone got a warning or fired? I know if a stupid mistake on my part cost my company 500k I would be out the door or have at least one foot out.

Nah, that is bad business practice. I bet you whoever botched the batch wont make the same mistake twice.
 
Anyone here been to the DFH Alehouse in Gaithersburg, MD recently? I was there about 3 weeks ago and they had a beer on tap that was simply called "Dogfish Head Ale". I asked the bartender about it and he told me they haven't really been given much info about it, but the rumor was that it was from a batch of 120 that didn't turn out correct.

I was there a few weeks ago when I was visiting friends. Our server described the Dogfish Head Ale as having something from the 60 (I don't remember what she said), the alcohol of the 90 and the hops of the 120... you might be on to something here.
 
I was there a few weeks ago when I was visiting friends. Our server described the Dogfish Head Ale as having something from the 60 (I don't remember what she said), the alcohol of the 90 and the hops of the 120... you might be on to something here.

Sounds an awful lot like they just blended a batch of 60 with the failed batch of 120, which is what Sam proposed as they were sitting around the conference table. Wow, if that's the case I'd be very disappointed - smile for the cameras, and give 'em a song and dance about the honour of DFH and how they would never sell a product that was in any way defective, and show some beer being dumped. Soon as the camera's off, turn off the valve, and salvage the beer.
 
I thought it was funny that when they sat down to taste the 3 year vertical (06' 07' and 08' i think) that they preferred the oldest. That beer needs some age on it in my opinion. Of course the 4 year old bottle tasted the best.

The other thing I didnt understand is that they did not have an 09' bottle. When he was holding the 08' version, he made a comment that it was a year to the day that the last batch was brewed. What happened to the 09?

Was I seeing things or was it the delicious Bourbon Cty Vanilla stout I was drinking?
 
I guess that I am puzzled by the fact that if you had what the brewmasters were deeming "good beer" that you would still dump it. Why not bottle or keg it and make it available to employees? I am assuming that it made more sense from a financial standpoint to free up the tanks for another beer but I was cringing when I saw them dumping so much product (they obviously were too). Montanaandy

I bet a couple employees took some home in growlers.


I think this show must have been filmed in early 2009. The tree-house was in Beer Wars and there was a February 2009 date on one of the beer cases.
 
I can't believe a little amylase enzymes wouldn't have broken the big sugars up and made that beer more fermentable.

That's what I was wondering...you'd think they'd add something to the beer to break down the unfermentables rather than dump the batch (travesty!!).

THey should have bottled it and donated it or something. People would have loved to drink that beer. Give it to homeless people...or someone! What a waste...
 
The move to dump it was genius.

Of course they could have sold every last drop of it as a limited edition, and even though I would still buy a bottle of it, I would never forget that they bottled a mistake as a new item. Are they Microsoft or something?

They displayed on national television that they have strict quality standards and that they stick to them even if it means taking a pretty big hit.

They will inevitably gain much more from dumping that batch on camera than the $500k they have lost.
 
The move to dump it was genius.

Of course they could have sold every last drop of it as a limited edition, and even though I would still buy a bottle of it, I would never forget that they bottled a mistake as a new item. Are they Microsoft or something?

They displayed on national television that they have strict quality standards and that they stick to them even if it means taking a pretty big hit.

They will inevitably gain much more from dumping that batch on camera than the $500k they have lost.

They will gain much more, perhaps, but what about all the people all over the world that could have used that beer...people starving that could really use the calories...they all lose.

Call me old fashioned, but I only see it as a waste of food and a waste of booze. I understand they have a reputation, but they just moved down a peg in my eyes.

What about a bread factory that makes a huge batch of bread that doesn't taste just right? Should they just destroy it? I don't think so, personally. Beer > bread.
 
Seems like DFH is damned if they do, damned if they don't in this situation (and anything else cover in the show). It's pretty obvious from this thread that people just want to hate on them no matter what decisions they make...
 
They will gain much more, perhaps, but what about all the people all over the world that could have used that beer...people starving that could really use the calories...they all lose.

Call me old fashioned, but I only see it as a waste of food and a waste of booze. I understand they have a reputation, but they just moved down a peg in my eyes.

What about a bread factory that makes a huge batch of bread that doesn't taste just right? Should they just destroy it? I don't think so, personally. Beer > bread.

My mother used to work at a large supermarket chain (years ago) and when I asked her about the stuff that was too old to sell and what they did with it she said they threw it out and could not give it away. My guess is some stuff gets sent back to be recycled but the point is they could not give it away, had to be disposed of.

I thought that was a shame too with homeless people and all but from a business perspective proabably smart. How many people would take expired free food over paying full price?
 
My mother used to work at a large supermarket chain (years ago) and when I asked her about the stuff that was too old to sell and what they did with it she said they threw it out and could not give it away. My guess is some stuff gets sent back to be recycled but the point is they could not give it away, had to be disposed of.

It's sad. People could use it, but perhaps there isn't the infastructure or logistics to get it where it needs to go.

In terms of beer, I would have donated it to a distiller, and see what could be done in terms of salvage. :)
 
It's sad. People could use it, but perhaps there isn't the infastructure or logistics to get it where it needs to go.

In terms of beer, I would have donated it to a distiller, and see what could be done in terms of salvage. :)

Muffin bottoms?? :D
 
+10,000 as to why a company that "thinks outside of the box" would dump $1/2 MIL worth of beer that was perfectly fine but out of spec.

I'm fairly certain they didn't actually dump it and just blended and served at their brewpub.

But that begs the question: Why in the hell would they fudge the facts for the show - now the public at large just sees the bad management.

*irk
 
I think this show must have been filmed in early 2009. The tree-house was in Beer Wars and there was a February 2009 date on one of the beer cases.

My bet is that this was actually filmed as the pilot episode, but they realized they needed more of a hook for the audience than just "making beer" - so I'm guessing they bumped the more exciting (to the general viewer) "international" shows up to the head of the line. Once you have people watching, you can throw in more of the science of brewing like was highlighted a bit more in this episode which would likely bore people if it was the first episode.
 
you're telling me sam is creative enough to put out some of the weird things he's put out, but not enough to do something with an off-flavored 120?

Yeah, you could throw it in barrels and add some funky junky to it and who knows?

I guess as a businessman you do have to know when to walk away and write it off. You will spend time, money and resources trying to save it and no guarantee it is worth saving.

Besides, if it turned out awesome it might have been unrepeatable!
 
The way I see it is that somebody at Dogfish Head seems to know a little about what they are doing hence their success so I would have to assume the order to dump the beer is based on a logical commercial brewery standpoint!

Of course no beer lover in their right mind would want to see that beer go to waste but when you have the volume of production that they have, it can be a lot more costly to have have product taking up space and resources when you can be getting other product out the door!

I actually liked the cedar beer episode and hope to see more like it, otherwise I have been kind of on the fence about the whole thing!
 
I thought it would have been cool to see them do something like a limited time dock sale or something. Like five bucks to fill a corny, ten bucks for a sankey. It's not like they would recoup a bunch of money from this but it would be cool to throw a bone to all their local fans.
 
I'm fairly positive that this is not the ONLY mishap that has ever happened in commercial brewing. If everyone started covering their blemished by blending or other techniques. Can you image the amount of crap that would be on the market right now? I can see it now...Dogfish Head Toilet Water brew "Didnt quite meet our standards but we didn't think you'd notice".

Sure it may be a bit of a publicity stunt, but why not take advantage of the brand that Sam has build (not only DFH but in himself as well).
 
If you pause on the charts you will see that they knew for at least 25 days that the fermentation was stuck. As professionals brewers they did or tried everything known to try to correct the problem. This wasn't something that a few tasters discovered one day and it was dumped shortly after that taste test. I bet everyone that worked there knew that the Big Gun Jammed, and before tasting knew it was going to be sweet. This was just edited for TV.
 
The way I see it is that somebody at Dogfish Head seems to know a little about what they are doing hence their success so I would have to assume the order to dump the beer is based on a logical commercial brewery standpoint!

Of course no beer lover in their right mind would want to see that beer go to waste but when you have the volume of production that they have, it can be a lot more costly to have have product taking up space and resources when you can be getting other product out the door!

I actually liked the cedar beer episode and hope to see more like it, otherwise I have been kind of on the fence about the whole thing!

Agreed, i think people don't realize that in business Time AND space equals money and that beer taking up space was just not practical for a relatively small brewery like DFH. Sure they could have stored it until they brewed a beer that could be properly blended with it and sell it as a special one off, but what about all the other brews that needed to be put out to keep the company afloat? Business is all about cash flow, keeping barrels and barrels of bad beer you have no idea how to fix is not a good way to keep the cash flowing, specially if it's taking up space that some other beer that can be put out to market sooner needs.

It's sad. People could use it, but perhaps there isn't the infastructure or logistics to get it where it needs to go.

In terms of beer, I would have donated it to a distiller, and see what could be done in terms of salvage. :)

As sad as it is, it's still all about money. Looking for a way to use stuff you can't sell isn't that easy nor is it cheap.

I don't think a distiller would have taken it, they are all pretty particular about what they put into their "distiller's beer" and I doubt they would have had the warehouse space to accommodate a special one off 120min IPA Whiskey much like how DFH didn't have the space to accommodate the beer in the first place. I don't even know how the logistics would work for transporting that much liquid beer and keeping it sanitary.
 
The move to dump it was genius.

Of course they could have sold every last drop of it as a limited edition, and even though I would still buy a bottle of it, I would never forget that they bottled a mistake as a new item. Are they Microsoft or something?

They displayed on national television that they have strict quality standards and that they stick to them even if it means taking a pretty big hit.

They will inevitably gain much more from dumping that batch on camera than the $500k they have lost.

Good will and a $500k tax write off. My guess is that they won't owe any taxes this year. Most likely the beer was worth more as a write off then what they could get from selling it at cost or additional marketing/labeling costs.
 
If you pause on the charts you will see that they knew for at least 25 days that the fermentation was stuck.

I agree. The brewers knew there was a problem well in advance and the TV producers ran with it.

And, the "super secret" mash-in temperature for the test batch of 120min was 143F. Their attempt to hide the temperature probe readout is laughable. Nothing beats slow motion playback on a DVR! :D
 
And, the "super secret" mash-in temperature for the test batch of 120min was 143F. Their attempt to hide the temperature probe readout is laughable. Nothing beats slow motion playback on a DVR! :D

So am I the only one that thought he was just hamming it up for the camera?
 
Call me old fashioned, but I only see it as a waste of food and a waste of booze. I understand they have a reputation, but they just moved down a peg in my eyes.

I really don't see the big deal. I would be willing to bet every brewery dumps batches.
 
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