Spa Panel Breaker won't Flip to "On"

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biertourist

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*Sigh*

I've finished wiring my control panel and did an initial test using 2 extension cords plugged into different 120v circuits (yes, I know). Now I've wired up my Home Depot 50 amp GFCI spa breaker panel and... nothing...

I've wired it identically to PJ's diagram here:
power-panel-5a.jpg


But the breaker just won't flip over successfully to the "on" position...
I pressed the "test" button before doing anything else and now it just won't flip to the "on" position...

I can take a picture of how it's wired and post it here tonight to assure everyone but it really looks like it's wired perfectly. What are the odds of getting a bad GFCI breaker? -What are the odds of returning it after I've cut holes in the box and knocked out the knock outs?


This sucks, I'm SOO close to being able to power this thing up and now I'm stuck...



Adam
 
I wan't to clarify that the breaker isn't quickly resetting or anything scary like that; it just won't "click" to the on position.
(When plugged in or unplugged.)

I'm using a 4 wire, 50amp electric range plug as my power input.

Adam
 
Turn off the breaker feeding this panel in your main panel and see if the breaker remains latched. If not I'd say the gfci is mechanically deficient. If it does remain latched then the wiring is wrong.
 
Breakers can be deceiving. A new breaker typically comes in a tripped (middle position). You need to flip the breaker all the way in the off position, first (it will click). Then, throw it on.
 
Yep click it all the way off and then all the way on. Gfci breakers are strange like that.
 
Not just gfi's. residential breakers trip to the middle position. With only a few exceptions, they all have to be switched off, then on.
 
I REALLY had to click it way off; this WAS the problem, embarrassingly enough.


Now the full control panel powers up correctly EXCEPT for the power out to my elements and my indicator lights (240v in-line with the elements).... It only registers up to 120v with the multimeter and the kettle element's contactor puts out a pretty loud hum (less loud when the element is connected)...


Time to T-shoot with my schematic and multimeter tonight...


Adam
 
Ok, guys I need some help here.

I've got 120v going to each of my elements but the side that's SUPPOSED to be coming through the SSR isn't being passed. I've got 120v hot going into the SSR (new FORTEX) but nothing coming out...

-I also don't see any voltage passing to the SSR coming from the PID controller -I'm expecting that there should be 12v or 24v showing up but I'm not seeing anything. Can someone help me troubleshoot this?

-The light isn't on on the SSR but I just don't know if the SSR is bad, something is programmed incorrectly with the PID controller, or the PID has something wrong with it --where do I go from here?

It's been almost 5 months since I started this build and I'm SOO close to being able to brew again and this is just driving me crazy!


Adam
 
Whats your wiring diagram?

Also, what PID are you using?

If it's the Auber 2352, I may be able to help...
 
Have you set all the settings correct on your pid? If you are using the auber one then kal has setup instructions on his site. Also, i think the auber ones have a light that indicates that it is sending 12v to the ssr, if so is that lighting up?
 
Yeah, If you have an Auber, there should be a light to the left of to the set value (Green Numbers) that will light up if the PID is trying to light the element.

I had a problem with having my PID set to "Cooling" mode, instead of "Heating" mode. I read the whole darn manual trying to figure it out.
 
Auber 2372 but 99.875% the same.

Diagram here: http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/542031_10151426040401929_447115019_n.jpg

Not sure how useful the diagram will be vs. the actual implementation.


Should the PID control circuit going to the SSR have a measurable voltage?
Shouldn't the light on the SSR be on? -Is it the "hot" side or the control side that powers the SSR's indicator light?
I should qualify that I am seeing a small amount of voltage coming out of the SSR but it's 10s of volts...


Adam
 
I believe the PID should have a DC voltage to the SSR if it is firing.
Does the green light turn on in the front?

The SSR light will only be on if the PID is providing current.

Can't help with the extra small amount of current coming from the SSR... That's odd to me.
 
Auber 2372 but 99.875% the same.

...
The PID is a completely different unit than most. It has an internal SSR & it is not intended to be used to control an external SSR.

From the manual:
Please note that this is NOT for our DC triggered AC SSR. It can not handle more than 300W (at 110V ) either.

Bottom line? IMHO - You have the wrong PID for the application that you are trying to accomplish.
 
The PID is a completely differeny unit than most. It has an internal SSR & it is not intended to be used to control an external SSR.

From the manual:


Bottom line? IMHO - You have the wrong PID for the application that you are trying to accomplish.

Thanks PJ! I would've spent another day trying to troubleshoot this in vain.

I never thought for a second that an Auber PID controller existed that couldn't control an external SSR....
I spent a long time with both the 2352 and the 2372 spec sheets up side-by-side and the conclusion that I came to was that for $2 extra that the 2372 included an extra built-in 2amp capable SSR; I had no idea what I might eventually use that "extra" capability for, but thought that it might come in handy. -The note about it not working with Auber's SSRs or more than 300 watts of power, I thought was an incompatibility with AUBER's specific SSRs based upon the way that it was worded; obviously if it's only a 2 amp built-in SSR the built-in SSR can't handle much wattage...

No brewing for me for a while longer while I try to exchange this for the 2352...

Again, I think I'm glad I paid a little extra and went with Auber for the support as it's dumb moves like this that can be costly if you don't have good support...


*Sigh, why can I only learn the hard way?*


Adam
 
Can anyone think of a brewing application that the 2372 can actually be used for? (to cycle a pump on an off for HERMS brewing maybe? (assuming that you have another PID controlling your HLT heat)


Adam
 
You could use the internal (SSR) relay to switch external mechanical relay/contactor instead of SSRs if you wanted.

Or, even use the internal (SSR) relay to switch a small stepdown transformer like a wall wart that would have the appropriate DC output to switch the external SSRs. You probably have a small one in the junk box with 9 - 12VDC output that you could implement for free and get up and running.
 
The best solution? Call the owner of Auber Instruments tomorrow and see it he would arrange an exchange for a different PID (SYL-2352).

You might be able to work out something with him. I believe he is an outstanding businessman that helps us all.

EDIT: Also reference this thread. He would be very interested. (Just saying.)
 
The best solution? Call the owner of Auber Instruments tomorrow and see it he would arrange an exchange for a different PID (SYL-2352).

You might be able to work out something with him. I believe he is an outstanding businessman that helps us all.

EDIT: Also reference this thread. He would be very interested. (Just saying.)

They agreed to issue an exchange almost instantly; I don't think this is a rare occurrence, at all.


Adam
 
This is the exact reason I used Auber. I've never heard a single bad word about their support.

+1 to them, and good luck to you! Let me know if you need any help setting up the 2352!
 
Thanks Sicklesr; I've read the 2372 manual 3 or 4 times now so I think I'm pretty much good-to-go when the new controller gets here.


Anyone have some recommendations for setting up the PID controller to obtain the best accuracy?


So far the recommendations that I've collected are:
1. Use a PT100 sensor vs. a thermo couple; ensure that you're using the same awg copper wire end-to-end or even better purchase Auber pre-made deluxe cable; if using a thermocouple for the love of all that's good don't install it backwards!
2. Run auto-tune PID calibration with the sensor installed in the vessel it will be used in and close to the temperature that it will be used at (for the HLT calibrate starting 5-10 degrees below your strike temp with it programmed to stop at your strike temp)
3. Manually calibrate the PID controller's temp readout with a high accuracy thermometer in ice water, at boiling, and at my typical target temp (strike temp for my HLT) and then set the off-set parameter in the pid controller if necessary

I will also be running a pump to circulate the water in the HLT as it heats to ensure that the heat is even; I'll be doing this on brew day as I heat the strike water so I'll keep everything as similar as possible to actual brewday.


Anything else?


Anyone know any other interesting pros or cons of setting it up in Fahrenheit or Celcius? -I've been in Ireland the last 5 years so I'm actually more comfortable brewing in Celcius but I remember from the 2372 manual that there's a configuration setting that is only available in Celcius vaguely...



Adam
 
P.S. I'd LOVE to see a future PID controller that supported multiple autocalibration settings. (Then you could have a single PID calibrated for both your HLT and your boil kettle and just swap PT100 sensors, you could also calibrate for when you feel like insulating the vessel and when you don't feel like insulating it; or summer temps and winter temps or 5 gallon batch size and 10 gallon batch size or recirculated HLT and non-recirculated HLT etc... and on and on and on.)

OR being able to calibrate it for your fermentation vessel while cooling and your HLT while heating, etc...

Again, a super useful feature that would make a single PID controller much more accurate when used in multiple scenarios.
-What I'm thinking is that after calibration all of your settings get stored in "Config =1" and "Config=1" and if you have a saved auto-calibrated configuration you can just load these saved configurations as the first item in the menu. (Think of the electronic adjustable car seats that have saved settings for passenger 1 and passenger 2.)


I'd give a MASSIVE preference to buying a PID controller that supported multiple auto calibrated settings like this vs. one that made me purchase a separate PID controller for everything that I wanted to do.

Adam
 
P.S. I'd LOVE to see a future PID controller that supported multiple autocalibration settings. (Then you could have a single PID calibrated for both your HLT and your boil kettle and just swap PT100 sensors, you could also calibrate for when you feel like insulating the vessel and when you don't feel like insulating it; or summer temps and winter temps or 5 gallon batch size and 10 gallon batch size or recirculated HLT and non-recirculated HLT etc... and on and on and on.)

OR being able to calibrate it for your fermentation vessel while cooling and your HLT while heating, etc...

Again, a super useful feature that would make a single PID controller much more accurate when used in multiple scenarios.
-What I'm thinking is that after calibration all of your settings get stored in "Config =1" and "Config=1" and if you have a saved auto-calibrated configuration you can just load these saved configurations as the first item in the menu. (Think of the electronic adjustable car seats that have saved settings for passenger 1 and passenger 2.)


I'd give a MASSIVE preference to buying a PID controller that supported multiple auto calibrated settings like this vs. one that made me purchase a separate PID controller for everything that I wanted to do.

Adam

While not being as tidy as your suggestion, you should still be able to accomplish this "manually".
Just note down the P, I & D values after running an autotune on you set up in each configuration. Then if you want to change to another configuration all you need to do is reinput those values. Should take about 10-20 seconds to change configurations once you know the values. I know it is not as nice as your request but really it is the difference between changing one value compared to changing 3 values that you had to write down. :D
 
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