Brew swapping Etiquette.

Dear Doctor Phil ipe:

So I'm fairly new to brewing myself, but not Home Brew, I have several friends who are brewer's and have been for years.

Occasionally we swap Brew's between ourselves, sometimes for comparison other times just for the hell of it or to return the favor. I always enjoyed tasting my mate's home brews ( something I can now reciprocate ) its awesome to see their take on certain beers.

A couple of the guys are AG brewers one just does extract. The extract brewer is always giving me new beer to try, I have recently been able to repay his generosity by giving him a few of my own

So that's the story, here's the punchline, Every Beer he give's my tastes the same all I get from it is soap. The last Bottle he gave me was a Coopers Kit Stout, the body was thin the colour was very light and again all I could taste was Soap !

I have had this kit before from another mate, and I really enjoyed it, it had a full body plenty of stout pazazz and no soap.

My question is, should I let my mate know this is what im getting from his beer's ? he always seems very pleased with them so I'm a little apprehensive to tell him I dont really enjoy them.

Have anyone come up against this ?

Cheers Mark

Tough decision.

I would give him an honest critique of his brew. the idea of having others taste your brew is to give you good feedback. If it is good you want to know. If there are problems, with good honest critique, you can help him improve his brews. The thing with crits is to be honest and not get personel, but just make the point that it is just about the brew.

I say this as an art profesor that gives crits all the time. Most people have a hard time seperating a negative about their work, from a negative about them. Make sure they understand that is is just about the beer and not an attack against him.

What do your other buddies think? Do their opinions mirror yours? I would think that if everyone is in agreement that there some off favors, then you guys should tell him.

He'll never get better without some constructive criticism.

I had a friend who started brewing Mr. Beer kits. I shared some of my brews with him and he brought over one of his beers on day while i was brewing. I think that it was supposed to be an American wheat but it was so cloyingly sweet that I even to this day, I am really not sure. I opted not to say anything because it was a kit and he was brand new to brewing. I didn't want to discourage him.

Markd27 said:

What do your other buddies think? Do their opinions mirror yours? I would think that if everyone is in agreement that there some off favors, then you guys should tell him.

He'll never get better without some constructive criticism.

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Yes we all have picked up the same soapy taste in his beer, one guy did try to approach it with a little humor mentioning that it did taste soapy, but he didn't take well to that.

I'm not sure he can pick it up, he has had several of the other guys beer's I'm assuming that he may be chalking the taste diff up to the diff between extract and AG.

Mine are all extract at the moment, so maybe now he may notice the diff between mine and his.

Cheers Mark

Mb2658 said:

I had a friend who started brewing Mr. Beer kits. I shared some of my brews with him and he brought over one of his beers on day while i was brewing. I think that it was supposed to be an American wheat but it was so cloyingly sweet that I even to this day, I am really not sure. I opted not to say anything because it was a kit and he was brand new to brewing. I didn't want to discourage him.

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That's my fear also, he has been at it about a year or so now.

I'd offer to sit in on a brew day with him to see what he's doing. Maybe he's not rinsing something properly, or there's an issue with his water.

I was helping a friend get back into brewing and sat in on a brew day of his. I found out he was using bleach to sanitize, but he didn't rinse it after. No wonder his beers tasted awful.

AgentHubcap said:

I'd offer to sit in on a brew day with him to see what he's doing. Maybe he's not rinsing something properly, or there's an issue with his water.

I was helping a friend get back into brewing and sat in on a brew day of his. I found out he was using bleach to sanitize, but he didn't rinse it after. No wonder his beers tasted awful.

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That's a great idea ! I will def make an offer to do that cheers.

IMO, don't say anything except "thanks for the beer" unless he directly asks you for criticism.

While you're waiting for that to happen, work on a way to put it gently without saying anything untrue. If there's anything positive you can say, I'd lead with that, and then pick the biggest problem and point that out. I would also stick to no more than a couple points of criticism, and if at all possible, try to say a roughly equal number of honest positive comments.

My logic is this. He clearly enjoys making the beer, and likes to share it. That's cool and generous, even if it's not great quality. If he is happy with what he's making, there's no reason to start telling him it's bad (and spontaneously criticizing it will very likely be interpreted that way even if you are very careful). If he does ask for your opinion, you ought to be truthful, but you don't need to unload with a detailed critique. It sounds like he has a lot of room to improve his methods, so I think it would be most effective (and also most tactful) to point him toward resolving the biggest problem first.

Since your friend broached the soapiness and met with negative results, I would be doubly inclined to hold off.

I have been told over and over about my "brutal honesty". 99% of the time it is good, but that 1% can be tough. People that know me love/hate my honesty, but they respect it none-the-less. I haven't associated with many HBers, but I ALWAYS make sure that when someone tries my HBs that they be brutally honest with me as well. I WAAANT IT! Especially if it's bad. I feel that if every beer that I make is liked by EVERY person that tries it then someone has to be lying to me. Not everyone that gets some of my HBs likes all the styles that I make. To date I've had only 2 friends say anything negative about my brews. What that did to me is respect their responses more than the others.

That's just me though. I work differently than most. I LOVE constructive criticism. Kiss-asses need not apply. haha

GL




P.S. You and your Political Correctness crap can kiss my glass! :rockin:

I would just let it go. He already took to mild criticism poorly, why beat a dead horse? If he likes what he brews, let him. If he point plank asks for critique, you can either be cordial, or honest. I choose cordial in regards to homebrew. Honest is for more important endeavors.

Thanks for the advice all. I might continue to play this by ear, I personally am open to constructive criticism but I'm not sure my mate is.

Cheers Mark.

Sounds wise. I'd also say that if you are ALSO a brewer, it's a little different than if you were a random test subject. Criticism (or an offer to help) could be mistaken for trumpeting your superiority, no matter how sincerely well-intentioned you are.

I would give him an honest opinion, but approach it in a way that shows you are trying to pinpoint a particular flavor you are getting. I wouldn't indicate that you don't like it, but more of a "I notice this in all of your beers, what's yoru process." I guess I don't really see the point in skirting the issue. We are after all, all trying to improve our beer, aren't we? Maybe there will be a rough patch, but just think of the smile on his face when instead of saying, "Yeah, uh, yeah, um, the beer was OK." you can actually snap back and say, "WOW, that was a great beer." I know there is no greater satisfaction for me than when friends call me to see if they can come over for a beer.

How can one expect to get better when he doesnt get honest feedback?

Just my .02.

We don't become better people by getting a blue ribbon for everything we accomplish. If there's something wrong with his beer, there's something wrong with his beer.

Maybe he had a dirty mouth as a child and actually likes the taste of soap as a result?

my friends and I trade beers often.... And we are pretty honest, however other than overcarbing issues, we've all had excellent beers. Sometimes something may not be "my style" but I can at least appreciate the beer for what it is.

let him know you are getting a soapy flavor - i think that flavor is due to underpitching or lack of aeration, causing a fermentation lag... see if he'll start to do some starters and aerate better.

I make starter wort with the 3rd/4th runnings from my grain, I boil it down to 1.040 and freeze it(screw $5 a lb DME) IF you hand him free starter wort it might give him an incentive to do starters.

Jus tell him it tastes a bit soapy. If he's a dude then he'll be able to take it. No biggy

I have a brewing friend that I swap beers with. The point is to critique one another's beer - but we do understand that ahead of time.

Still, if sombody kept giving me new beer to try, knowing I also brewed, I'd have to tell him.

dpatrickv said:

How can one expect to get better when he doesnt get honest feedback?

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That is a very good point, and a very good reason for someone to request feedback and take it constructively. However, it's up to that person to decide whether they're interested in the feedback. I really don't see there as being a duty to give this guy an opinion.

phenry said:

We don't become better people by getting a blue ribbon for everything we accomplish. If there's something wrong with his beer, there's something wrong with his beer.

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Eh, not sharing your criticism isn't the same as giving him a blue ribbon for his craft. Be honest---don't tell him it's great, or even that you like it, unless it's true---but the opposite of this is just not saying anything.

The way I think about it, this guy gave a gift. As with any gift, I don't think it's appropriate to point out the flaws in the gift, just be appreciative of the thought.

If he's taking part in a swap where the whole idea is that you give each other beers and offer back criticism, and he's aware of that dynamic, that'd be different. Again, though, the OP seems to think this guy may not be interested, and apparently has shown discomfort with the feedback in the past. Why push it? Are you really being a better friend by offering unwelcome feedback?

zeg said:

That is a very good point, and a very good reason for someone to request feedback and take it constructively. However, it's up to that person to decide whether they're interested in the feedback. I really don't see there as being a duty to give this guy an opinion.

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I'm having a hard time imagining that someone can get into this hobby, invest all the time it takes to make that first brew, and then turn around and NOT want to get better or not want to know what people think about what YOU made.

Maybe those folks exist, I just have a hard time wrapping my head around it. Bottom line, I would tell him. I'd tell him everyone else tastes it, so it's not just you. If he gets butt hurt about it, apologize for being out of line and move on. If he was my friend I'd care enough to take the chance of offending him if there was a chance that he'd appreciate the help and improve the quality of his brewing.

Markd27 said:

I'm having a hard time imagining that someone can get into this hobby, invest all the time it takes to make that first brew, and then turn around and NOT want to get better or not want to know what people think about what YOU made.

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Well, I'm with you in the sense that I generally want feedback, and I am critical enough of my own product that I am not likely to be offended because I already know about the flaw. As long as the feedback is more constructive than "this sucks, jerk," I wouldn't mind.

But not everyone feels this way. I guess my point is that when you're dealing with a friend, you ought to be aware of his perspective. If you're someone who absolutely has to speak his mind and he's someone who is going to be upset by it, that might be a sign that you're not going to be compatible as friends. But sometimes we make concessions in the interest of friendship even if we don't entirely understand.

I've found that it's best to always give your honest opinion. Sometimes new brewers don't respond well to negative feedback, but in the end it will make them a better brewer and they will probably thank you for it - especially if you can offer them suggestions about how to correct the faults that you perceive in the beer.

So just an update on this one gents, I was around my mates place this weekend and we got to talking about his brew and in particular how we both went about cleaning out our bottles.

I was not at all surprised when he said he just uses plain old dish soap and then rinses with the ( Bottle rinser ) tap attachment just using one squirt then moving on to the next !

At this stage I did mention that I found his beer to be a touch soapy and that I thought this may be due to him no rinsing enough.

He had an English Ale ready to bottle for the next day, I offered to help him bottle it ( and im sure as most bottlers know its a pain in the backside to bottle ) so he took me up on the offer.

He still insisted on using Dish washing liquid but I was sure to rinse thoroughly in near boiling water ( as I do Myself ) not using his tap attachment.

In a couple of weeks we will see if this made any diff, Thanks for all the replies and advice !

Cheers Mark

I rinse my bottles in plain ol water after each use...then sanitize right before bottling ... I soak labels off with pbw. If i have time i use the dishwasher with a sanitize cycle. Dish soap is nasty stuff.

Hell, I haven't even worried about the labels. Leave them on for all I care.

I do the same though for cleaning, as soon as a beer is poured it is rinsed 3xs and set to dry. When bottling time comes up I inspect each bottle for anything missed and if needed clean more thoroughly. Than sanitize and rack.