Can homebrew ever equal microbrew quality ?

I love microbrew beer, and the challenge to to equal or best it, in terms of taste, quality.
Using only simple plastic fermenters, basic equipment...is it possible to succeed ??

99 % of all homebrew I've tried never quite beats microbrew, imo.

Yes. All it is is just extracting sugars from grain, boiling hops, fermentation via yeast, and carbonation/conditioning. Microbreweries just do it on a larger scale.

Truthfully, most of those microbreweries emply master brewers who have a lot more training and a lot more experience than most of us have here - this is what they do for a living, so they better be good at it!

That said, it is absolutely possible to meet or exceed their quality - it just takes time to build up your skillset to the point that you can reliably do so.

Better!
Especially if you go all grain, good yeast, good water and control
fermentation temps.

I don't know the homebrew you've been drinking but often if you have good techniques you can easily make a better beer than a micro brew. You can't get fresher beer than the stuff you make yourself.

I've had some terrible homebrews, but I've also had some terrible microbrews!

I think it's absolutely possible, and I'm a big critic! One thing that helps is you can create a beer geared to your taste. If you taste a microbrew you like, you can still pick out something you'd change. For example, I'll enjoy a beer but then say, "Hmmm, I think I'd like this better if there was a citrusy note on the end and there was a stronger malt backbone" and then go home and recreate the beer the way I want. That's one great advantage to making your own!

The thing is, it doesn't happen by accident. Close attention to yeast pitching rates, fermentation temperature, water, ingredients, and process make all the difference!

Yooper said:

I've had some terrible homebrews, but I've also had some terrible microbrews!

I think it's absolutely possible, and I'm a big critic! One thing that helps is you can create a beer geared to your taste. If you taste a microbrew you like, you can still pick out something you'd change. For example, I'll enjoy a beer but then say, "Hmmm, I think I'd like this better if there was a citrusy note on the end and there was a stronger malt backbone" and then go home and recreate the beer the way I want. That's one great advantage to making your own!

The thing is, it doesn't happen by accident. Close attention to yeast pitching rates, fermentation temperature, water, ingredients, and process make all the difference!

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The one in red is the biggest one in my opinion. That one is so over looked or not even considered. I know I ignored it for my first brew and as a result I could not even drink it. My beer got noticeably better in the winter and then started getting funny again in the spring. I connected the dots and built a fermentation chamber.

The other items listed are important too and I'm sure I'll run into one of those at some point. For the most part, most of the posts I read in this forum are about off flavours that result from a warm fermentation.

Micro-brewers have all of those items listed down pat. It is just part of the procedure for cranking out beer for them. That is at least something to aspire to.

on saturday we went on a beer sampling to 6 different small breweries in st louis. tried sample sizes of more than 40 different flavors. the single hopped citra i poured out of my keezer before going downtown was in the top three of beers i drank all day.
the reason was simple. it wasn't a fancy beer, but it was brewed to exactly my tastes. many of the brews we tried that day were super yeast forward (i don't like that) or malty as all hell (i don't like that), i like hops, lots and lots and lots of hops; and screaming high ABV too.
so i guess it depends on opinion, but with proper attention to technique and a little practice, it is fairly easy to make a beer that you will enjoy more than a profesionally made one. (see how i didn't actually say it was better.) as somebody else mentioned, especially with a hoppy beer, freshness matters a ton!

I've tasted some crap home brews also but now know that's probably coz low cost ingredients were used &/or too much water used to maximize return. Coupled with poor skills all leads to crap beer.
I am VERY much an amateur but have made a very nice high % stout using better quality ingredients, extra malt & dextrose than recipe called for. Used 2litres less water & have a really nice (for me) thick, edible stout. I like it & that's all that matters to me.
Am I going to put microbrewers out of work? I doubt it. But there must be far better home brewers out there than me.

As stratslinger said, these guys are pros. So they should have a lot more experience...BUT...

I assume that with some practice, following a recipe correctly should yield some good results... Its like the difference between a chef and an amateur cook. The chef comes up with these butt kickin recipes...the cook just follows along.

That being said, my very first batch of homebrew is still fermenting..Just joined this forum(hi!)...so I could be wrong?

Yooper said:

I've had some terrible homebrews, but I've also had some terrible microbrews!

I think it's absolutely possible, and I'm a big critic! One thing that helps is you can create a beer geared to your taste. If you taste a microbrew you like, you can still pick out something you'd change. For example, I'll enjoy a beer but then say, "Hmmm, I think I'd like this better if there was a citrusy note on the end and there was a stronger malt backbone" and then go home and recreate the beer the way I want. That's one great advantage to making your own!

The thing is, it doesn't happen by accident. Close attention to yeast pitching rates, fermentation temperature, water, ingredients, and process make all the difference!

Click to expand...

Yooper pretty much says it all. I have tasted some OK but not great home brews and I have tasted some excellent homebrews.

I like being able to make a beer that I like. The best part of homebrewing is creating recipes. I have a couple that I like and all of my friends really like. They started out as simple recipes that I tweaked until they are just what I want.

Pay attention to details and you can make great beer with minimal equipment. Fermentation temp control is a big factor as are the others that Yooper mentioned.

Totally. Have you seen some of the beers on here? They look fricking amazing.

reason I'm asking, is one of my home brew friends wants to buy one of those massive copper kettles and other professional brewing equipment.
He seems convinced better equipment will produce better quality beer....
less chance of any oxidation , more tighter control over temperature ( stovetop temp control is variable ) .

dimmy32 said:

reason I'm asking, is one of my home brew friends wants to buy one of those massive copper kettles and other professional brewing equipment.
He seems convinced better equipment will produce better quality beer....
less chance of any oxidation , more tighter control over temperature ( stovetop temp control is variable ) .

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That's probably not going to help, to be honest. If you can't make a great beer on the stovetop, expensive equipment will not improve it. I've tasted fabulous beers out of a bucket set up.

The techniques really are key here, not the equipment, unless you have a stove that can't reach a boil or a major equipment issue like that.

dimmy32 said:

reason I'm asking, is one of my home brew friends wants to buy one of those massive copper kettles and other professional brewing equipment.
He seems convinced better equipment will produce better quality beer....
less chance of any oxidation , more tighter control over temperature ( stovetop temp control is variable ) .

Click to expand...

Tell him to buy a mini fridge and a temp controller. That single change to my system yielded the greatest increase in quality, taking my homebrew from being drinkable to being better than most of what I can buy at the grocery store.

If one of those things your friend is considering is better fermentation temperature control, that will help vs no control. But I have been using an Igloo cooler filled with water and ice bottles to control temps in my fermenter for a few years and it works extremely well, so it's not necessary by any stretch to use "professional" equipment to get the results you want.

IffyG said:

Tell him to buy a mini fridge and a temp controller. That single change to my system yielded the greatest increase in quality, taking my homebrew from being drinkable to being better than most of what I can buy at the grocery store.

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I assume you use this to put your primary fermenter in ?
what sort of temps are optimal for ales ? ( I realize lagers need much cooler temps )

Yeah, I put my primary (and only) fermentation vessel into the minifridge and set an appropriate temperature for whatever yeast I'm using. It try to keep the beer at about 62* F during active fermentation and then cold crash at about 40* to get the yeast out before I keg. In addition to having control over the fermentation of ales, it's going to make brewing a lager as easy as lowering the temp of the fridge.

Also as mentioned above any method of temp control is going to be better than no control at all, but I'm lazy and would much rather spend 100 some odd bucks to have something I can set and forget. If your friend has the time to putz around with trial and error with a cooler and ice bottles, have him give that a try.

I brewed my first batch 6 weeks ago, I opened a beer last Sunday after 20 days on bottles, wow , I almost cry: great color, clean, aroma and flavor. Love it. I pour three samples ( two micro beers and mine) and give them to a friend, he could not tell which one was mine

Yes,

To make top quality beer you need 6 things:

1) proper sanitation
2) fermentation temp control
3) good yeast pitching rates
4) proper aeration of wort
5) repeatable processes (take notes)
6) good recipe and consistent water


None of these have to be terribly expensive and can easily be done at home. If you focus on these things you will eventually be producing great beer. I know my beer has continued to improve with this as a focus and I expect to continue improving. I believe I am finally at the point where my recipes and water are where I need to focus. Trying to get into the simple is better mindset (more different ingredients does not equal better beer).

the key to good beer is consistency and being able to change one variable at a time until you have your process down. Some set ups can eliminate variability more than others.

Are you kidding? Of course homebrews can be better! Not only can homebrews be better, but homebrews are usually taken care of better than microbrews that sit on warm shelves for months.

I unfortunately have to disagree with Yoop. I absolutely think that improved equipment translates to improved results. Tighter control tolerances and better sanitation along with improved processes translates to more consistent, accurate, and quality product IME. For example, adding an oxigination system and yeast lab will improve your chances of attaining ideal fermentation conditions. Temperature controlled fermentation will improve and allow you to positively control fermentaion characteristics. The list is nearly endless IMO and they almost all make a differnce.

That said, yes you can make pro quality beer at home, it just doesn't happen that often (again IME) and is difficult to do.

dimmy32 said:

reason I'm asking, is one of my home brew friends wants to buy one of those massive copper kettles and other professional brewing equipment.
He seems convinced better equipment will produce better quality beer....
less chance of any oxidation , more tighter control over temperature ( stovetop temp control is variable ) .

Click to expand...

I know Yooper's said it already, but I've gotta agree with her: Equipment does not make beer - brewers do. Actually, strictly speaking, brewers make wort, and yeast makes beer.

Now, if you're doing partial boils on the stove top, you can definitely glean some improvement simply by stepping up to a turkey fryer (or similar) and a 7+ gallon (10 gallon's great if you've got the room!) pot and boiling your full volume. But that's a far cry from any kind of professional equipment. And why copper? At the volumes we work with, stainless steel is great, as is properly prepped aluminum - and I'd guess both are cheaper.

If he really wants to invest money in some brewing toys in a way that will help his beer, a few people have already pointed out the single best investment he could make: fermentation temperature control. See above, where I said yeast make beer? Well, brewers have a role beyond feeding them wort - we have to give them the best environment possible in which to do their work. Fermentation temperature control can have huge benefits to your beers - and your friend's money will be better spent on this that it will on fancy copper kettles.

Hmm, it's kind of already been said, disagreed with, restated and argued to this point. People are pointing you in the right direction I think with temperature control equipment. Sanitation goes without saying, but after that, temperature control is key. I would probably argue yeast health/pitching rate next. Better equipment is nice, but I think you get diminishing return with investment. I make some nice beers on my all-grain setup, but made a partial mash, partial boil mild on my stove top a few months back and wasn't expecting much from it. I pitched healthy yeast, controlled the temps and ended up with a beer that was pretty danged good, and far better than anything I brewed in my first few months of brewing.

Absolutely-homebrew can be as good as, if not better than microbrew (or "majorbrew", for that matter). It can also be much, much worse. Of course, there's also fallacy in that conceptual comparison: there is no standard "microbrew" quality. (and that's even more true for homebrew)

The homebrews that we've all had probably fall along a wider distribution of quality, since we have no QC department, we brew once a week/month instead of every day, and we tend to be hobbyists rather than pros, who tend to be formally trained, even if they didn't start off that way. Plus there is a market dynamic in the microbrew space: while a mediocre homebrew may continue to be consumed for 30, 40, 50 pints, whereas a mediocre microbrew won't be purchased again, you'll tell your friends not to buy it, etc. You may not have the opportunity to sample the lower end of the microbrew spectrum as the weaker attempts fail faster.

Plus, we do have some advantages that brewers don't have.. fewer cost pressures (besides SWMBO, but I wont lose my job if I am low on my efficiency numbers time after time), timing, control, etc. (I like maltier, less bitter beers. So I tend to tweak recipes in ways that tone down the bitterness slightly, or maybe shift the hops from earlier to later in the boil as I'd prefer to gain flavor/aroma than bitterness. Control is fun!)

So relax and have a homebrew. Some of yours and others will be better than certain microbrews, and some won't.

Absolutely. It takes a lot of work and time (pitching rates, fermentation temp control, etc), but it can certainly be done.

Better equipment won't get you better beer unless you know how to use it. And a Homebrewer who knows what to do can make beer every bit as good as a good Microbrewer with very little equipment.

Most equipment upgrades that cost real money are really for convenience.

I agree with Homercidal.
Most of my equipment upgrades are for convenience. They have only improve the process slightly but cut down on my workload (and downtime) during a brew-day considerably.

well, my friend wants better quality, but also larger volumes than the usual 23 L. buckets. This part, I understand.
Why copper ?
The guy is a doctor and makes a lot of cash. I suspect he wants something to show off in his basement.

Logically, if you take the same recipe, same brewer, and use different equipment, better equipment will give better results.
I think the guy will be dissapointed a bit , when his beer doesnt taste THAT much better...but as we all know, making beer is part skill and part luck.

I will be a broken record... assuming you have a good recipe, good beer depends on:

1. Good water, geared to the desired taste
2. Tight temperature control (and pH if so inclined) of mashing and sparging
3. Pitching healthy yeast at the correct temperature
4. Oxygenating to proper levels at pitching
5. Fermentation temperature control
6. Proper sanitation
7. Low oxygen exposure after primary has completed

These are the things that can be improved to get better beer. Some expensive equipment can help these things. As others have said, fermentation temperature control is an easy thing to accomplish and worth every penny. An expensive kettle probably won't do much. But if your friend really wants one, he should get it. Just tell him not to expect good beer until he addresses the important things.

Copper will work, but it is expensive and will turn green eventually.
I would rather SS, expensive (not as much as copper) and stays shiny forever.
A little polish once a year will keep it looking brand new regardless on what metal it is made of.

I would also group larger volume brewing in the convenience column as well.

I also agree that the new equipment will improve his brew, just not much. Without a process improvement, if his bucket brew is a 4/10 then his brew with the new equipment may be a 4.5/10. But fancy equipment may motivate him to improve his skills thus improving his brew.

Good Luck!

dimmy32 said:

Logically, if you take the same recipe, same brewer, and use different equipment, better equipment will give better results.

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Sure, I have a pretty kick-ass system now, but I don't think it makes better beer than my old system. It's just far more convenient to have pumps, a bigger system, an automatic HLT, etc.

dimmy32 said:

I think the guy will be dissapointed a bit , when his beer doesnt taste THAT much better...but as we all know, making beer is part skill and part luck.

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And I think luck has nothing to do with good beer at all! It's 100% technique and good ingredients. That's it.

Yooper said:

And I think luck has nothing to do with good beer at all! It's 100% technique and good ingredients. That's it.

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I've gotten "luckier" the longer I've been brewing and the more I've learned!

Most micro brewers or craft brewers were, or still are home brewers. These folks have taken the same good practices and talents and brought them to a commercial scale. I was listening to jamil zanechef and Gordon strong talk about judging on the show "brew strong." both agreed most commercially brewed beers from Germany and the US would not score higher than the mid 30s in most BJCP sanctioned competitions; however, the NHC and most AHA winners are scoring in the mid 40s with their home brew.

Now making extract brews on the kitchen stove with no fermentation temp control, no large sterile yeast starters, not building up water chemistry, and not paying close attention to consistency and mash PH, are what you are referring to then I agree. That does not mean one bit that good beer can not be made on the kitchen stove with extract batches, but for award winning beers, you are competing with folks who routinely use the above mentioned practices.

My advice would be to attend a couple local homebrewer's club meetings and taste some beer from people who have been brewing for a while. Also visit your local craft brewery and talk to the brew master. You will rapidly learn he/she is brewing just as most of us do just on a 40 bbl system instead of a 20 gallon system.

My wife and I use the same brew sculpture that stone brewery uses for their pilot brews, but if our process and mechanics are not consistent and perfect, then we just have a nice digital stove with large spaghetti pots. It all comes down to brewing science. I'm sure once you've had a chance to taste award winning beers you will agree they far surpass a lot of microbrews.

[email protected]. on tap: homemade sarsaparilla and easy virtue blonde. primary: heffewitzen, blow your top steam. conditioning: fruity monk Belgian wit

when i say "luck" it means making the same recipe, the same way...and having the beer taste a bit different each time. For that reason most microbrews combine several batches, to ensure consistent taste.
As far as microbrew bottled beer goes...I agree some of it isnt as good as homebrew...but I usually drink microbrew beer from the tap..which is amazing.

I'm sure if you tried homebrew on tap you would think it's pretty amazing too.

What you call luck pro brewers and home brewers alike call constancy. With my system and practices I know that because of my notes and brewing practices I can duplicate each batch each time. This took quite a while and quite a bit of money spent on equipment and clean room materials, but my wife and I have achieved the consistency and system efficiency we have strived for. With the addition of a fully digital S.M.A.R.T system from B3 I can make my house beer the exact same each time. This is important not only for our own purposes, but also in competing. It also helps if we wish to tweak a recipe just a tad in that we can change water profile, hop additions, hop varieties, or yeast strains and pretty much know what we will end up before brewing it. I don't like surprises in the brewery, and nor do pro brewers.

I think once you start attending homebrewing meetings, and maybe become really involved in the BJCP judging process your mind will be made up.

[email protected]. on tap: homemade sarsaparilla and easy virtue blonde. primary: heffewitzen, blow your top steam. conditioning: fruity monk Belgian wit

dimmy32 said:

when i say "luck" it means making the same recipe, the same way...and having the beer taste a bit different each time. For that reason most microbrews combine several batches, to ensure consistent taste.

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Batches are not combined to account for luck. One of the main reasons is because the ingredients are never EXACTLY the same. Things are grown with more or less water in a given year or part of a year, grown in different soils at different times, crops are affected by fires, etc... which leads to differences in grains and hops throughout a year or years. Also, even with the same batch of grain from the same delivery date to the brewery, the characteristcis and taste will change with storage. And many (I think Daniels suggests not all) hop varieties "degrade" with time. Also, if a batch makes it out of the brewery after bottling more slowly for whatever reason, flavors may change. For all of these reasons, none of which are luck, batches are mixed by many breweries. This is taken to extreme measures at places like BMC breweries where customers want EXACTLY the same beer day to day, month to month and year to year.

I'm just saying.

It's funny but reading what I wrote, I can see someone calling all those factors luck. To me, they are explainable differences but I suppose it's just semantics.

I think that when you seemed to initially infer that luck is the reason that sometimes a batch turns out well can upset some of us who fairly consistently make good beer because we have learned how to do it.

7 out of 8 party goers chose my Guinness clone over Guinness in a blind taste test!

To me, that question is like asking "Can a local band ever be as good as a major nationwide band?" and the answer is of course. The big guys have more money and tools at their disposal but you can do awesome things with even the most basic tools. Not just in brewing, in everything.

Also, if you're chalking up a lot of your brewing to luck, you're wrong....there's a reason for every thing that went wrong or right in your beer, it's all about how much you're willing to learn.