Stuck Fermentation w/ 1056

After a ten year "home-brewing sabbatical", I finally decided it was time to brew a batch of homebrew 4 weeks ago. I had long ago sworn off extract brewing, so I picked up where I left off and proceeded ahead with planning out a smoked porter.

A few days in advance, I made a 1-quart starter from a small batch of ~1.030 Pale wort and some reclaimed yeast from the bottom of some Sierra Nevada Pale Ales. That went off very well - nice clean aroma - active fermentation as I came upon brewing day.

The grain bill for my single infusion mash consisted of the following:

10 lbs 2-row Pale
1.5 lb Smoked Pale
1 lb Unmalted Wheat
1 lb Chocolate Pale
4 oz. Black Patent

When all was done, I had collected about 5 gallons of 1.055 OG wort. Once cooled, I pitched my yeast, and it was fermenting away in about 24 hours. Not a crazy-active fermentation, but I chalked that up to the low-60's temps.

After 5 days I racked off to secondary and recorded a gravity of 1.040 - higher than I expected, but I just figured it was taking it's time - I could see evidence of fermentation, albeit not very lively.

Now, 20 days later, I finally get around to taking another gravity measurement - I get a reading of 1.037. Frankly, I'm not surprised as there has been little activity from the air-lock and the lack of any bubbles confirms that.

I'm unsure of what to do next - never had this happen before. Suggestions???

What was your mash temperature?

beerkrump said:

What was your mash temperature?

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It didn't drop as much as I thought when I doughed in, so it started at about 170 but I let it sit for about 90 minutes until it dropped to 155.

Hmmm.... where to start.

1. How did you grow up your culture? You likely dramatically under pitched unless you stepped the starter up several times.

2. You racked it off the yeast way too soon. Next time, hit your terminal gravity, and then rack it off the yeast.

3. If you temperature was at 170* to start, you likely denatured most of the enzymes that convert starches to sugar. Best case scenario is that the starches that did convert are likely long-chain dextrins which are not fermentable.

wonderbread23 said:

1. How did you grow up your culture? You likely dramatically under pitched unless you stepped the starter up several times.

2. You racked it off the yeast way too soon. Next time, hit your terminal gravity, and then rack it off the yeast.

3. If you temperature was at 170* to start, you likely denatured most of the enzymes that convert starches to sugar. Best case scenario is that the starches that did convert are likely long-chain dextrins which are not fermentable.

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1) It was a single step - 4 bottles worth of yeast dregs. I've done that before with good results, but I realize every situation is different.

2) Yea, I've just been doing some reading that seems to suggest that getting it into the secondary quickly is an "old skool" thought-process. I would have been better off stirring things up and getting it to a warmer environment.

3) In hindsight, I was concerned that the higher starting temps could have been a problem.

Thanks for the feedback.

wonderbread23 said:

3. If you temperature was at 170* to start, you likely denatured most of the enzymes that convert starches to sugar. Best case scenario is that the starches that did convert are likely long-chain dextrins which are not fermentable.

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+1 to this. 170F is typically the mash OUT temperature when you want to stop conversion at the end of the mash. If it took 90 minutes to get down to 155F your temp was really high for a long time...

+1 to #3


If you are using a cooler for a tun, try this. Add your 180°-170° water (this will change depending upon your strike temp and what the heat sink is of your equipment), wait ten minutes for the tun to warm and the water to drop. It should drop about 10°. Add your grain and stir like crazy. Wait five minutes and check your temps again. You should be around your target temp, adjust as needed. Open a beer and wait an hour.

Appreciate the input on what I should have done - good input for next time. But now let's focus on what I should do with this 5 gallon bucket of brown stuff.

It actually tastes okay as is right now, so it hasn't gotten infected. I'm thinking I'd like to make a quick ~1 gal batch - not even bother with hops - getting it going to high krausen and then pour the existing 5 gallons into it.

Think that might jump-start things?

I don't think you have any fermentables left. That's the result of the high mash temp. Just bottle that brew as a session porter and move on.

DPDISXR4Ti said:

Appreciate the input on what I should have done - good input for next time. But now let's focus on what I should do with this 5 gallon bucket of brown stuff.

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Adding amalyse enzyme to it would break down all of your long-chain dextrins. The issue with this however is that it will literally make every sugar in there ferment out leaving you with a very thin alcoholic beverage. Given the choice though between a cloyingly sweet low alcohol beer and a bone dry booze bomb, I'd choose the later.

wonderbread23 said:

Adding amalyse enzyme to it would break down all of your long-chain dextrins. The issue with this however is that it will literally make every sugar in there ferment out leaving you with a very thin alcoholic beverage. Given the choice though between a cloyingly sweet low alcohol beer and a bone dry booze bomb, I'd choose the later.

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Thanks. I need to have a homebrew shop closer to home.

I'd throw a lb or two of sugar in there to get the alcohol content up. It will still be sweet but at least you can 'catch a buzz'.....

DPDISXR4Ti said:

Thanks. I need to have a homebrew shop closer to home.

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If you wanted to try adding enzymes Beano is a widely available commerical option. I haven't personally tried it but you don't need a homebrew shop near you to buy it, that's for sure.

Poobah58 said:

I'd throw a lb or two of sugar in there to get the alcohol content up. It will still be sweet but at least you can 'catch a buzz'.....

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I was actually thinking about mixing in some bourbon.

BoogieBrandBooze said:

If you wanted to try adding enzymes Beano is a widely available commerical option. I haven't personally tried it but you don't need a homebrew shop near you to buy it, that's for sure.

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Hmmm, never heard of that one. Have you even heard of someone trying it before, or just speculation on your part?

BoogieBrandBooze said:

If you wanted to try adding enzymes Beano is a widely available commerical option. I haven't personally tried it but you don't need a homebrew shop near you to buy it, that's for sure.

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I read up a bit on using Beano and that seems like a bad idea. It'll eat through every existing sugar and never really stop, making final carbonation a bit of a gamble.

Instead, I ordered some amylase enzyme from The Grape and Granary.
http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/amylase-enzyme-1-lb-bag/4,12176.html

Suggestions on the best way to add this into the secondary? Recommended dosage is one teaspoon per gallon, but should I just mix it in or liquify it first? I think I read somewhere where someone boiled a small quantity of water, let it cool down some (temp?), and then mixed the AE into that before pouring into the fermenter.

Definitely boil to sterilize.

ehedge20 said:

Definitely boil to sterilize.

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Everything I've read indicates NOT to boil it - that will kill it and render it useless.

Any way, I got the AE today and mixed it into the secondary - 4 hours later the damn thing was fermenting again! Yipee!

48 hours later, nice healthy fermentation going on - gravity down to ~1.020 from 1.033. Let's hope it doesn't cruise right through my target of 1.015.

Okay, 5 days later and still chugging away with a nice frothy head. Now down to about 1.016 and a sample indicates it's certainly dried out (no surprise there). I'm hoping it will stop fermenting soon, as it's quite dry enough already. Since 1056 is supposed to be viable up to 11%, it's going to be unfazed by the ~7% I'm headed toward.

If it keeps going much below 1.015, I think I'm going to want to stomp it out by heating up to 180' F. That should kill off the enzyme activity, yes? But what about the yeast? Would I then need new yeast at bottling?

DPDISXR4Ti said:

Okay, 5 days later and still chugging away with a nice frothy head. Now down to about 1.016 and a sample indicates it's certainly dried out (no surprise there). I'm hoping it will stop fermenting soon, as it's quite dry enough already. Since 1056 is supposed to be viable up to 11%, it's going to be unfazed by the ~7% I'm headed toward.

If it keeps going much below 1.015, I think I'm going to want to stomp it out by heating up to 180' F. That should kill off the enzyme activity, yes? But what about the yeast? Would I then need new yeast at bottling?

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At this point the enzymes have likely already broken down all of the sugar. They finished their job a long time. Heated it really wouldn't do anything other than maybe kill off the yeast that are working.

Mashed at 170, pitched yeast from 4 Sierra bottles (which aren't even bottle conditioned, but are krausened), racked to secondary at 1.037, and now are considering raising beer temp to 180...honestly man, I hate to say this, but you should probably stick to buying beer.

bgough said:

Mashed at 170, pitched yeast from 4 Sierra bottles (which aren't even bottle conditioned, but are krausened), racked to secondary at 1.037, and now are considering raising beer temp to 180...honestly man, I hate to say this, but you should probably stick to buying beer.

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Hey, it was the first time back at it in 10 years - I was a little rusty. FWIW, would it surprise you to know that I medaled in every homebrew competition I ever entered?

wonderbread23 said:

At this point the enzymes have likely already broken down all of the sugar. They finished their job a long time. Heated it really wouldn't do anything other than maybe kill off the yeast that are working.

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Got it, that makes sense. I'll just let it finish off and see whatever it ends at, so be it. Thanks...

beerkrump said:

+1 to #3

If you are using a cooler for a tun, try this. Add your 180°-170° water (this will change depending upon your strike temp and what the heat sink is of your equipment), wait ten minutes for the tun to warm and the water to drop. It should drop about 10°. Add your grain and stir like crazy. Wait five minutes and check your temps again. You should be around your target temp, adjust as needed. Open a beer and wait an hour.

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Agreed. I have good luck with that strain at 70 degrees myself.

DPDISXR4Ti said:

would it surprise you to know that I medaled in every homebrew competition I ever entered?

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yes

I'm just giving you a hard time, but here is my FWIW: Only culture yeast from bottles that is hard or impossible to obtain otherwise. 1056 is readily available in both liquid and dry form from anywhere you can buy brewing supplies. Also, never raise the temp of your beer to 180 after fermentation...EVER. In fact, just for fun try heating up a bottle of your favorite beer that high for any length of time and then taste it. Fermented beer is not meant to be cooked.

bgough said:

Also, never raise the temp of your beer to 180 after fermentation...EVER.

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Oh, I thoroughly realize that would have been an unusual step - there's already been a few of those with this batch - and since it's been pointed out that it wouldn't have achieved the results I was after, it's not something I'll be doing. But lest you forget, most commercial beers are pasteurized, so it's not such a terrible thing. Mind you, I too don't drink most beers subjected to such a process (i.e. MillerBudCoors), but I think the process isn't nearly as harmful as you suggest.

So I'm interested in hearing how this all worked out for you, did the enzyme bring it down to a good place or go right down to 1.000?

I ask as I've got basically the same thing happening, I had my stout hit 164 or so during the mash accidentally (residual stove element heat, I think) and didn't catch it for 15 minutes. Now my 1.052 OG has dropped to 1.030 and visually nothing else is happening in there.

Psych said:

So I'm interested in hearing how this all worked out for you, did the enzyme bring it down to a good place or go right down to 1.000?

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Good timing, as the fermentation has finally petered out and I was actually thinking about bottling today. When I checked it a couple days ago it was at 1.012 and tasted pretty good. Certainly on the dry side, but I'm sure it will be entirely drink-able with a reasonably high alcohol content.

BTW, as cheap as it was to get a pound, that's how much of the enzyme I bought, which I'll certainly never use all of. So if someone's passing through the Rockland County area and wants to bring me some homebrew to evaluate I'll send you home with a couple ounces of enzyme.

In hindsight, I'm thinking my issue may have been as much the age of the grain as the high temperature. It tasted fine but I bet it's lost it's enzyme punch. Next time I'll try using the enzyme in the mash.

Well that's good, glad it seems to be working out! Did you get your amylase at your LHBS or do you think it's something that can be found at a heath food store or something? Our local brew supply shops here are pretty wine-centric...

Psych said:

Did you get your amylase at your LHBS or do you think it's something that can be found at a heath food store or something? Our local brew supply shops here are pretty wine-centric...

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Not my LHBS but a mail-order HBS. A lot of them don't carry it - one of the big ones replied and told me it didn't exist (i.e. you're an idiot for asking such a question). I can't imagine any reason for a health food store having it, but maybe there's some other use I'm not aware of.

hehe, maybe I'll just call it a Candy Stout and bottle it at 1.030 in a few weeks after cleaning up, keep it around as a reminder to watch my temps better

So just to put a happy ending on this story, I bottled 6 weeks ago and had my first bottle last night. It turned out amazingly well - not too dry, not too sweet - way beyond what I expected given all the drama this batch endured.

I've still got some of this older grain, and given how well this batch turned out, I have no second thoughts about using it all up now. My only question is what's the best method for introducing the amalyze enzyme which is clearly needed for older grain? Should I use it during the mash, or repeat what I did on this last batch and mix it in as it goes into the fermentation tank?

I would add it to the mash... After you make sure you are under 160*

Misery loves company !
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/hair-dog-stuck-fermentation-303277/