3724 Going to slow

I brewed a "Saison" with 3724. My OG was 1.051 and I pitched a 1.8L starter. It took off really fast but like expected it slowed way down once it hit 1.021. After over a week its only to 1.016. I know I can probably let it ride out and get to my FG but I want my beer faster! I was wondering how much I will ruin the effects of my 3724 if I pitch a different yeast to speed this up. If I do that I have two options for yeast. I have washed wyeast 1332 or a packet of us-05. I am not a huge fan of the us-05 taste in some of the beers that I have done that allow the yeast to come through so if that is a possibility I would rather avoid it.

Probably the favored yeast to supplement, if you can get some, is Wyeast 3711 French Saison. There are several threads that talk about it - This one, in particular, talks about using it in concert with the Belgian saison yeast.

If you can't get any French saison, then I'd go with US-05 at ~64-66 degF. Should be neutral, where the Northwest should display some fruitiness that might not harmonize with your Belgianocity.

I brewed yesterday and used 3724 on a 1.062 saison. I to did not want to wait so I made a starter with the 3724 two days before and also picked up a packet of the bells saison danstar dry yeast. I pitched the starter at 80f and then just sprinkled the dry on top. Starter took right off bubbling two hours later. Well today about 24hrs later it really kicked up again must be the dry yeast hittingits stride. Will up date.

bennie1986 said:

I brewed a "Saison" with 3724. My OG was 1.051 and I pitched a 1.8L starter. It took off really fast but like expected it slowed way down once it hit 1.021. After over a week its only to 1.016. I know I can probably let it ride out and get to my FG but I want my beer faster! I was wondering how much I will ruin the effects of my 3724 if I pitch a different yeast to speed this up. If I do that I have two options for yeast. I have washed wyeast 1332 or a packet of us-05. I am not a huge fan of the us-05 taste in some of the beers that I have done that allow the yeast to come through so if that is a possibility I would rather avoid it.

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That strain needs to be heated up to finish its fermentation.

What's the current temp? If you have the ability to raise the temp evenly between 5-10 degrees, that will help. BUT it is crucial that you do it immediately. Once this strain stops, it can be difficult to restart, so I've read.

I would not pitch another strain until you do what you can with this one.

I love 3724 in the summer because at 90-95*, it takes off and doesn't look back. Just give it heat and time and it'll get there.

It's was around 75 and I know that's low but that was the best I could do. I busted out the swamp cooler tub and have been dumping in hot water to keep the water in the tub to 95. My sick on thermometer stopped working on my Carboy so I don't know what the actual temp of the beer is now.

Does heating it up speed the yeast up at all or just prevent from crapping out?

bennie1986 said:

It's was around 75 and I know that's low but that was the best I could do. I busted out the swamp cooler tub and have been dumping in hot water to keep the water in the tub to 95. My sick on thermometer stopped working on my Carboy so I don't know what the actual temp of the beer is now.

Does heating it up speed the yeast up at all or just prevent from crapping out?

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A little bit of both.

The higher temps can also bring out some of the esters required in a Saison or other Belgian style.

I recently brewed a Dark Strong that I fermented at 80°. It went from 1.094 to 1.012 in 5 days.

You have to heat it up. My first batch with this strain stalled completely at 1030- you're lucky it got to 1016! I used a Hydrofarm seedling heat mat I got at Ace for about $20 to raise my temps 10°+ and it finished nice and dry. I actually split that batch and pitched Brett in half and bumped the temps on the other. I liked the Brett version better!

In my experience this is not a style to rush though. I know you want your beer faster, but if you rush it you'll end up with the last bottle being the best damn beer you've ever made! Saison was originally brewed to sit around for six months to a year before it was consumed and my 3724 brews have all gotten much better with age. Before about 4 months of conditioning it was an OK beer but nothing to get excited about, and that goes for the Brett version too. After that the flavors really melded together and it just started to develop great depth and complexity.

Raise the temps, rouse the yeast, and RDWHAAHB!

Another thought I had on this was that beer smith predicted my recipe to finish at 1.010. I shot for a 148f mash but ended up being 150f for 75 minutes. I know this yeast and style are suppose to finish really dry but is it possible with the mash that I did?

bennie1986 said:

Another thought I had on this was that beer smith predicted my recipe to finish at 1.010. I shot for a 148f mash but ended up being 150f for 75 minutes. I know this yeast and style are suppose to finish really dry but is it possible with the mash that I did?

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It's possible but from getting 150 instead of 148, the difference should be minimal. MAYBE 1.011-1.012.

Brother, this will finish at around 1004-1006 if not lower!

So since the last gravity reading on 7/12/13, which was 1.016, I have been using a "swamp cooler" method to keep the temps up over 85 (or at least that's what the hydro sample was after not changing the water for a while). Every few hours I would exchange a 1.25 gallons of water in the tub with maxed out tap water that was about 120f. That would bring the water in the tub to 95f on average and hold above 80f about 4hrs at a time. Todays gravity reading, 7/15/13, was 1.013. So I guess its going faster but I defiantly learned my lesson with not researching a new yeast strain before using it. At this point I cant say I wont use it again but if I do I will do so with more respect of its nature.

I brewed up a saison on Sunday, also around 1.050, and also with a 1.8L starter of 3724. I pitched at around 80 and within 4 hours the thing started going like crazy.

Now, 2 days later, it has slowed way down. I have the advantage though of temps in the mid 90s all week here in NYC so I'm hoping for the best. I will also rouse the yeast to keep it in suspension, which brings up a question: Does anybody use a stir plate on their carboys? I'm not sure that my DIY computer fan stirplate has enough oomph in any case, but why not?

zacster said:

I brewed up a saison on Sunday, also around 1.050, and also with a 1.8L starter of 3724. I pitched at around 80 and within 4 hours the thing started going like crazy.

Now, 2 days later, it has slowed way down. I have the advantage though of temps in the mid 90s all week here in NYC so I'm hoping for the best. I will also rouse the yeast to keep it in suspension, which brings up a question: Does anybody use a stir plate on their carboys? I'm not sure that my DIY computer fan stirplate has enough oomph in any case, but why not?

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You don't want to constantly introduce O2 when making beer, only when growing yeast. That would make an oxidized, nasty tasting beer.

sptaylor70 said:

Probably the favored yeast to supplement, if you can get some, is Wyeast 3711 French Saison. There are several threads that talk about it - This one, in particular, talks about using it in concert with the Belgian saison yeast.

If you can't get any French saison, then I'd go with US-05 at ~64-66 degF. Should be neutral, where the Northwest should display some fruitiness that might not harmonize with your Belgianocity.

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Agreed, next time you make a Saison using 3711--period. In your situation, I mean my first choice would be to get some 3711 and pitch it. If time is of concern, then US-05 would be a good bet, but if you can keep your temps in check I see no reason why the 1332 wouldn't work either--I wouldn't let that one get too warm.

Well, I took a sample reading on my 3724 and it was at 1.018 already after 2 days. It is still bubbling slowly, and I did give it a stir.

I'm pretty optimistic that I'll get this down below 1.010. The temp in my kitchen, at least according to my kettle thermometer, is 85.

And the sample tastes yummy as I spill it down my front. I'll dry hop it with some mild hops, nothing too distinctive. Maybe I'll use leaf hops as they aren't as strong when dry hopping.

I kept mine in a spare bath with a space heater holding the room at 80 for 2 weeks then put it in the beer closet which is around 75 for 2 weeks. It was 1.010 when I took a reading on Sunday so stuck it back in the bathroom for a few days to see if I could get a few more points. Going to keg it sat either way

I took another reading and it is at 1.014, so down .004 since yesterday. I guess it isn't stuck but I gave it a stir anyway (not to worry, no splashing). It is 86 degrees F in my kitchen according to my Blichmann Brewmometer. If I decided to cook, rather unlikely, it would get even hotter!

Man, if I had a dollar for every time I read about a problem with this strain...

I have used this yeast (WL version) a few times and always get to 1008 within one week. Everyone talks about temperature and pitch rate, but not too much about mash schedules. I always do a step mash, just like any other beer you want to dry out. I start at 144 for 1.5 hrs, then step to about 152 for another 1 hr. Pitch at 70, allow to free-rise to plateau, then increase to 80 until its done. Yes, the mash takes a little extra time, but it saves mucho frustration in the end. Many Belgian breweries do a step mash to dry their beers out. It works. This strain makes a nice peppery, lightly sour saison with tons of character, so don't give up on it. I use a 100% 2 row grain bill, cause that's all it needs. I make a 1 liter starter the night prior, pitch the whole thing.

Will just took a reading of 1.011. I have been adding hot water to a tub for the last week and now the beer is starting to clear up even with the heat and sloshing the fermenter. I think I might just go ahead a bottle this, what say you?

bennie1986 said:

Will just took a reading of 1.011. I have been adding hot water to a tub for the last week and now the beer is starting to clear up even with the heat and sloshing the fermenter. I think I might just go ahead a bottle this, what say you?

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Leave it for a month. I'm serious. I just bottled a batch I brewed in early May and it was at 1004. This yeast starts to crawl at this point but you have at least 6 or 7 gravity points to go.

TANSTAAFB said:

Leave it for a month. I'm serious. I just bottled a batch I brewed in early May and it was at 1004. This yeast starts to crawl at this point but you have at least 6 or 7 gravity points to go.

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This^^
Be patient and the beer will finish, mine always go to 1.004-1.006 easily but slowly!

To prevent the stalling on this strain, having spoken with wyeast, it needs to be pitched around 80 and as it slows raised to 90-95. If done this way you can get complete fermentation in about 10-14 days without getting stuck.

It is a beast of yeast if treated properly and turns out a phenomenal Saison!

Yep! And it really benefits from several months of ageing, either in bulk or in the bottle.

duboman said:

This^^
Be patient and the beer will finish, mine always go to 1.004-1.006 easily but slowly!

To prevent the stalling on this strain, having spoken with wyeast, it needs to be pitched around 80 and as it slows raised to 90-95. If done this way you can get complete fermentation in about 10-14 days without getting stuck.

It is a beast of yeast if treated properly and turns out a phenomenal Saison!

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So I'm guessing this yeast can attenuate past its rated 80% then? Cause I'm at 78% and if I get down to 1.006 ill be past that.

bennie1986 said:

So I'm guessing this yeast can attenuate past its rated 80% then? Cause I'm at 78% and if I get down to 1.006 ill be past that.

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It's rated at 76-80% but with a lower mash temp or step mash I've gotten better than 80%

duboman said:

It's rated at 76-80% but with a lower mash temp or step mash I've gotten better than 80%

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See that's just the thing I messed up my mash and mashed at 150 so I'm wondering if ill ever see a lower FG.

bennie1986 said:

See that's just the thing I messed up my mash and mashed at 150 so I'm wondering if ill ever see a lower FG.

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That assumes a calibrated thermometer. You've already stated its still dropping so just be patient and let it ride

Just kegged it today and it was at 1.003. Was not to funky, was expecting a little more but it might show more after chilling and carbing up

JeepDiver said:

Just kegged it today and it was at 1.003. Was not to funky, was expecting a little more but it might show more after chilling and carbing up

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Next time pitch warm and let it go to 90 and you'll get the funk

duboman said:

Next time pitch warm and let it go to 90 and you'll get the funk

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I pitched at 95 and left it in a bathroom with the heater cranked at 85 (as high as it would go) for the first week-10 days

JeepDiver said:

I pitched at 95 and left it in a bathroom with the heater cranked at 85 (as high as it would go) for the first week-10 days

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Wow, surprised.....

My saison is creeping down around the 1.026 range slow. I was planning to let this age for a year with the brett that I pitched with 3724. I've brought it to the warmest room in my house, high 80s during the day. My swamp cooler wasn't getting as hot as I thought. The bottom was much colder than the top half at 86. It might have put the yeast to sleep.

Mine is at 1.012 and still slowly bubbling. I'm on the fence about taking it off the yeast and dry hopping.

What do you think about dry hopping in the primary? I could just bag the hops and stuff them through the opening, let it sit and both ferment and pick up the hop aroma. I could keg it on this coming weekend. I'm only impatient as I have people in from Italy that want to try my homebrew.

I dry hop in primary unless I plan on washing the yeast.

zacster said:

Mine is at 1.012 and still slowly bubbling. I'm on the fence about taking it off the yeast and dry hopping.

What do you think about dry hopping in the primary? I could just bag the hops and stuff them through the opening, let it sit and both ferment and pick up the hop aroma. I could keg it on this coming weekend. I'm only impatient as I have people in from Italy that want to try my homebrew.

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Dry hopping in the primary is fine but at 1.012 it is not done yet so you want to wait until FG. Definitely do not remove this from the yeast before FG or it most likely won't finish at all for you.

Took another reading and was at 1.008. Was sick of looking at it and it tastes really good so I kegged it!

Mine's been in the keg for a week now, and it is really good. If it could have fallen another couple of points it wouldn't have made much difference. It is still bone dry.

Next time, instead of continuously dumping in hot water, just toss a cheap aquarium heater in your water bath. Much less effort and it doesn't use much energy at all (I think they're less than 100 watts). Also a lot more efficient than using a space heater to keep a spare room at 85 degrees. I have mine hooked up to a temperature controller, but they have internal thermostats so you don't have to.

Next time I'm going to try 3711.