it still tastes bad

TheSlash said:

What do you use instead of a sponge? I keep a sponge in the freezer that is only used with oxyclean on buckets/spoons etc..

Here is my info on the aftertaste, as I have it too.

I describe it as a bad bitter, it starts ok, then the after taste is ick. Almost slightly tannin like too..

I've gotten this with extract, and all grain. With Bottled spring water, and with filtered water. Got it doing partial boil on the stove and full electric boil on all grain.

Got it when left in primary over a month, got it after a 3 week primary.

Fermentation is in a 58-60 basement cupboard, so it never gets hot.

My mas temps are good, never high, sometimes low. Gravity all works out great. etc etc etc.

Got it on a pale, an english brown, and an oatmeal to a bit. Liquid yeast, dry yeast.

My only things to try next, better aeration and pitch temp...

I pitch between like 70 and 78 then drop to 58-60.. Think yeast is starting too soon and temp isnt dropping?

Seen a lot of people mention pitch temp should be equal or lower than ferment temp.

So I think that is the main cause of this bitter flavor. Going to pitch at 58 or less and test on a recipe I have already done.

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Keep me posted, this could be it, it sounds like it, or it coud be of course what a few others have suggested: sanitation or water, but it sounds like we have done the same things. My current batch I pitched at upper 70s, now fermenting at upper 60s.

TheSlash said:

What do you use instead of a sponge? I keep a sponge in the freezer that is only used with oxyclean on buckets/spoons etc..

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I keep away from sponges, especially the green scratchy ones (except for bottle label removal) because sponges are notoriously the most bacteria laden surfaces in the average household. Their extremely porous nature makes them virtually impossible to rid of bacteria. And some sponges, particularly the green scratchy ones, will scratch plastic brewing equipment. Even very small scratches in plastic pails, carboys, racking equipment, etc., provide sites for bacteria to hide away and make it harder, if not impossible, to sanitize them properly.

If elbow grease is needed during cleaning, I use a soft cloth on plastic, and then it goes into the washer with other rags and towels. For sanitation, I use a contact sanitizer- Star-San. I keep some in a spray bottle, and if I need a towel to wipe something that will touch the wort, I keep a good quality paper towel soaking in some Star-San for emergencies. Cheap towels degrade and turn to soggy mush. Star-San will sanitize surfaces with about 30 seconds of contact.

Since brew house sanitation does not eliminate all bacteria, but reduces their number to a very low level, a vigorous early ferment with plenty of fresh yeast ensures that your yeast will get a strong foothold and not the other microorganisms that you have reduced to a very low number.

cervezarara said:

I keep away from sponges, especially the green scratchy ones (except for bottle label removal) because sponges are notoriously the most bacteria laden surfaces in the average household. Their extremely porous nature makes them virtually impossible to rid of bacteria. And some sponges, particularly the green scratchy ones, will scratch plastic brewing equipment. Even very small scratches in plastic pails, carboys, racking equipment, etc., provide sites for bacteria to hide away and make it harder, if not impossible, to sanitize them properly.

If elbow grease is needed during cleaning, I use a soft cloth on plastic, and then it goes into the washer with other rags and towels. For sanitation, I use a contact sanitizer- Star-San. I keep some in a spray bottle, and if I need a towel to wipe something that will touch the wort, I keep a good quality paper towel soaking in some Star-San for emergencies. Cheap towels degrade and turn to soggy mush. Star-San will sanitize surfaces with about 30 seconds of contact.

Since brew house sanitation does not eliminate all bacteria, but reduces their number to a very low level, a vigorous early ferment with plenty of fresh yeast ensures that your yeast will get a strong foothold and not the other microorganisms that you have reduced to a very low number.

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Thanks. I'd been using the same sponge and only for beer. I soak it in sanitizer for awhile before using it and leave it in sanitizer when not actually scrubing during my cleaning / sanatizing process. I guess this isn't the way to go although I'd thought I'd kept it sanatized.

cervezarara said:

I keep away from sponges, especially the green scratchy ones (except for bottle label removal) because sponges are notoriously the most bacteria laden surfaces in the average household. Their extremely porous nature makes them virtually impossible to rid of bacteria. And some sponges, particularly the green scratchy ones, will scratch plastic brewing equipment. Even very small scratches in plastic pails, carboys, racking equipment, etc., provide sites for bacteria to hide away and make it harder, if not impossible, to sanitize them properly.

If elbow grease is needed during cleaning, I use a soft cloth on plastic, and then it goes into the washer with other rags and towels. For sanitation, I use a contact sanitizer- Star-San. I keep some in a spray bottle, and if I need a towel to wipe something that will touch the wort, I keep a good quality paper towel soaking in some Star-San for emergencies. Cheap towels degrade and turn to soggy mush. Star-San will sanitize surfaces with about 30 seconds of contact.

Since brew house sanitation does not eliminate all bacteria, but reduces their number to a very low level, a vigorous early ferment with plenty of fresh yeast ensures that your yeast will get a strong foothold and not the other microorganisms that you have reduced to a very low number.

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Yes thank you! I do starsan and a bit of oxyclean. Time to ditch that sponge!

How about paper towels?

A good way to kill the bacteria in your sponges would be to wet them then throw them in the microwave for 4 minutes. That should sterilize them

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/food-poisoning/news/20070124/microwave-kills-germs-sponges

zachary80 said:

A good way to kill the bacteria in your sponges would be to wet them then throw them in the microwave for 4 minutes. That should sterilize them

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/food-poisoning/news/20070124/microwave-kills-germs-sponges

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Interesting article. Thanks for sharing.

It’s the water.
Thanks for all the advise and suggestions. I’d used locally filtered bottled water in the past, its sold as drinking water, we all drink it as tap water is brackish so thought nothing of it. Then I used it only in the boil and topped off with RO water, thinking maybe bacteria in the water not being boiled was the issue. That didn’t seem to help. Last batch was all imported European mountain water. Any bitterness now is due to me having over hopped to cover up the expected, yet non-existent, residual sourness. But I like IPAs so that’s all fine.
Thanks again for all the tips.

I think I solved my taste. Which is the same as yours. The three things I changed.

1. Started pitching at 60.
2. Kept the wort at a constant 64 during first week of fermentation. Not the ambient, but the wort itself.

3. And I think a big one.. OXYGENATING. I don't think shaking was cutting it. Started using pure o2 and a diffusing stone.

I can update once I test this batch that is close to racking. I did a batch like this with wort from Bell's Brewery and the off flavor wasn't in that one.

It wasn't my water at all, but some styles masked it.

So I was pitching a bit warm, only controlling ambient temp, and not getting enough o2 in there!

3.

togodoug said:

It’s the water.

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Glad you were able to find some different water to try, and... I told you so! Now hopefully you can find a good source of local water.

TheSlash said:

I think I solved my taste. Which is the same as yours. The three things I changed.

1. Started pitching at 60.
2. Kept the wort at a constant 64 during first week of fermentation. Not the ambient, but the wort itself.

3. And I think a big one.. OXYGENATING. I don't think shaking was cutting it. Started using pure o2 and a diffusing stone.

I can update once I test this batch that is close to racking. I did a batch like this with wort from Bell's Brewery and the off flavor wasn't in that one.

It wasn't my water at all, but some styles masked it.

So I was pitching a bit warm, only controlling ambient temp, and not getting enough o2 in there!

3.

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I've always oxiginated by stirring like crazy. I don't know how to really control the wart temp, but have the ambient to 60 to 68 by keeping it in a cooler with water in it and I can control the water temp that surrounds teh fermenter.

extract TWANG!

Problem. As I said, at bottling the beer tasted good, very good. Three days later was good, and for the next few weeks great. It mellowed and was great. I used cascade hops and the aroma was great and strong, the after bit very nice like a smooth aromatic IPA. I mean other than one particular beer at a brew pub in Atlanta (320), this was the best beer I’d ever tasted. I was so pleased to really be brewing good beer.
By week four it tastes like crap. It tastes like all the other beers I’ve made: sour, no aroma, no character, just bad. All with different recipes and ingredients, yet all had the same bad after taste and smell. This batch I had “fixed” with better water. Open a bottle and the Cascade hops just popped out into the room. It was just a great ale. Now after a few weeks, about 4, in bottles it tastes like crap. Any ideas? After a year is it just time to give up? Ageing temperature? Bacteria? I can’t tell you how frustrating and expensive this is.

togodoug said:

Problem. As I said, at bottling the beer tasted good, very good. Three days later was good, and for the next few weeks great. It mellowed and was great. I used cascade hops and the aroma was great and strong, the after bit very nice like a smooth aromatic IPA. I mean other than one particular beer at a brew pub in Atlanta (320), this was the best beer I’d ever tasted. I was so pleased to really be brewing good beer.
By week four it tastes like crap. It tastes like all the other beers I’ve made: sour, no aroma, no character, just bad. All with different recipes and ingredients, yet all had the same bad after taste and smell. This batch I had “fixed” with better water. Open a bottle and the Cascade hops just popped out into the room. It was just a great ale. Now after a few weeks, about 4, in bottles it tastes like crap. Any ideas? After a year is it just time to give up? Ageing temperature? Bacteria? I can’t tell you how frustrating and expensive this is.

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I'm with ya man. Approaching a year here and have yet to make 1 good beer. We can't give up now. Just think of all the things we are learning NOT to do. By the time we get it right, our beer will be out of this world. I'd be happy with having beer that is drinkable for 1-3 weeks like you are getting now =) The last one I bottled make me want to barf as I was bottling.

TheSlash said:

I'm with ya man. Approaching a year here and have yet to make 1 good beer. We can't give up now. Just think of all the things we are learning NOT to do. By the time we get it right, our beer will be out of this world. I'd be happy with having beer that is drinkable for 1-3 weeks like you are getting now =) The last one I bottled make me want to barf as I was bottling.

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Some folks have liked my beer but I don't know why. All recepies taste the same, smell the same. This one was good for 10 days the developed the same astreigent off sour flavor. Most people on this site think its sanitation. I think I sanatize well, but have shnaged all ingredients including water. This last one was with better water and so so 10 dyas I was 100% aure it was water. N!))!))& hks AYS, THEN DEVELOPED THE SOUR ASTRINGENT OFF FLAVORH

togodoug - you said you think you sanitize well, but can you elaborate? Specifically, what process do you use (what sanitizer, how do you use it, etc) for your bottles and caps? Also, describe your bottling process - including cleaning/sanitizing of all the bottling equipment.

Your description sounds like that's a likely culprit - if the beer is good before it hits the bottle, but then develops sour notes after being in the bottle for more than a few weeks, my gut tells me that something's getting in there during the bottling process... Could be the siphon you use to transfer to the bottling bucket, the bucket or spigot itself, the bottling wand, the bottles, or the caps... But giving a full rundown of what you do with each of those might help pinpoint something.

togodoug, can you hold an empty bottle up to some light and observe the fill line? If there is a ring or some haze at that region of the neck, then your beer probably became infected in the bottle. If you have that ring, it can be hard to remove, but you must, or you will continue to contaminate future batches. Soaking in oxy clean (the same as one-step) and scrubbing with a bottle brush should remove the haze. If any film or residue remains, beer packaged in these bottles will also become bacterially infected.

These bacteria will produce some lactic acid which will give your beer a sharp sour bite. Now to find out how they got in there. After fermenting, the beer should only touch sanitized surfaces. Bottling bucket, spigot, racking/siphon equipment, bottling wand, hoses, bottles and caps need to be clean (no film, dirt, or debris of any kind) and sanitized prior to bottling. Do not start a siphon with your mouth- this is a recipe for contamination. The outside of the siphon tube needs to be sanitized, too, as it will be submerged in the fermenter. The outside of the hose and bottling wand need to be sanitized as well as the inside.

If you don't have a ring inside some of the off-tasting bottles, then I am running out of ideas. It sounds like you're almost there with your description of a great tasting beer. I hope you can make it all the way home with beer that tastes great from the first bottle to the last!

Best wishes.

I

there is no ring in the bottles. I sanatize by mixing 3 gallons of Iodophor in my bottelingbucket. I submurge and fill all botttles 6 or so at a tiem and leave them in the solution for 1 to 3 minutes, empty tehbottles back inot the buck and repeat until I have 55 bottles. I run some solution through the spigot, run some tghrough the syphone, and submure the syphone. I then wipe the buck with the solutoin in it up to the top with a sponge that has been soaking in it. Then I pour out the solution. The caps are in a bowl of solution until used. I puti the sugaar in a sanatized pan with 1 cup water abd boil for 15 min, let cool, put it in the bucket, syphone into the bucket and fill bottles with spigot, then cap.

stratslinger said:

togodoug - you said you think you sanitize well, but can you elaborate? Specifically, what process do you use (what sanitizer, how do you use it, etc) for your bottles and caps? Also, describe your bottling process - including cleaning/sanitizing of all the bottling equipment.

Your description sounds like that's a likely culprit - if the beer is good before it hits the bottle, but then develops sour notes after being in the bottle for more than a few weeks, my gut tells me that something's getting in there during the bottling process... Could be the siphon you use to transfer to the bottling bucket, the bucket or spigot itself, the bottling wand, the bottles, or the caps... But giving a full rundown of what you do with each of those might help pinpoint something.

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I just posted my process. Having computer issues. Assume bacteria in some part of bottling. This would effect Every Bottle in 7 consective batches?

Not to sure I like the sponge idea. Sponges are very porous and even though you soak it in sanitizer I would fear that there is a still a high probability of nasties living through the soaking. Another good exammple of this is when using a scratched plastic bucket to ferment in, all the sanitizer in the world won't touch a little scratch.

So it seems most folks thinkits not aging temp. but infection at botteling that takes a few weeks to show itself. Before many people suggested water, which I changed and it seemed to solve the problem, at least for the first 10 days.
So water was not the issue? Still sanitation?

Aschecte said:

Not to sure I like the sponge idea. Sponges are very porous and even though you soak it in sanitizer I would fear that there is a still a high probability of nasties living through the soaking. Another good exammple of this is when using a scratched plastic bucket to ferment in, all the sanitizer in the world won't touch a little scratch.

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Stop by, have a pint and tell me what is wrong!
most people seem to think its a sanitation issue.
If not, could it ageing temp? Something else

ageing temp isnt going to make the beer taste bad unless your doing something really weird which I doubt. Oxidation would take longer to show up. Its either infection or extract twang which is covered by hops for the first few weeks. 4 weeks sounds about right for how long it generally takes for the hop aroma to fade in my beers. Sorry I havent read the whole thread but have you brewed a stout, a pale ale. How do different styles compare?

I've brew pale ale, irish red, ESB, a few anber ales. They all have it. This last really nice hoppy pale ale as I said was 10 days in the bottle before showing. Smelled and Tasted very good until 10 days. All others wer obviousat bottling. All but one irish red which was good.

i think you have to find a good sanitizer besides one step. as a last resort a bleach solution would be better than one step but be sure to get the concentration right so you don't have a "bleach in my beer" problem.

I use Iodophor sanatizer. I thought aging was best at about 4 weeks, then its good forever. Now I hear extract twang could make extract beer bad in under three weeks?

togodoug said:

I use Iodophor sanatizer. I thought aging was best at about 4 weeks, then its good forever. Now I hear extract twang could make extract beer bad in under three weeks?

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I've brewed about 20 5-gal batches, every one of them extract/partial mash. Once I improved my sanitation & got fermentation temp control, my beers began to taste as clean and as good as professional beers.

In my experience (and I believe I saw Revvy write something similar recently), "extract twang" is another hangover from the early years of home brewing that is being dismissed like autolysis... and is probably an excuse for poor beer by people who are not sure what the real problem(s) may be.

Just my $.02

togodoug said:

Stop by, have a pint and tell me what is wrong!
most people seem to think its a sanitation issue.
If not, could it ageing temp? Something else

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That would be awesome but not practical someday I will get to the mariana islands. I do believe it is infection but lets all look at another angle here. could we all be thinking about infection when maybe it's high levels of phenols or esters or maybe diacetyl or tannin extraction. bad taste isnt always infection could be other factors in the process effecting the outcome and if bad habits follow through beer to beer than you have consistantly bad beer.

Piratwolf said:

I've brewed about 20 5-gal batches, every one of them extract/partial mash. Once I improved my sanitation & got fermentation temp control, my beers began to taste as clean and as good as professional beers.

In my experience (and I believe I saw Revvy write something similar recently), "extract twang" is another hangover from the early years of home brewing that is being dismissed like autolysis... and is probably an excuse for poor beer by people who are not sure what the real problem(s) may be.

Just my $.02

Click to expand...

Thanks. so what do I do? Have you had bad batches, if so, what were they like? Mine are drinkable by some standards but they all have that same bite / astringent / sour thing regardless of ingredients, yeast, or water. And as I said I was just beside myself with pride for 10 days when this batch was as good as any beer made anywhere.
I can't say just how clean and crisp it was, with that nice aroma and bite of cascade hops. The head was perfect, any brewer anywhere would have been proud.
So what do I do to get it back and to stay? The only guy I can go to in person says of my other beers, they are fine. But they were not! I noticed a simlar taste in beers he's made, so blamed the water.

Aschecte said:

That would be awesome but not practical someday I will get to the mariana islands. I do believe it is infection but lets all look at another angle here. could we all be thinking about infection when maybe it's high levels of phenols or esters or maybe diacetyl or tannin extraction. bad taste isnt always infection could be other factors in the process effecting the outcome and if bad habits follow through beer to beer than you have consistantly bad beer.

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Okay, lets assume one of those. What do I do?

I have been having the same problem and I am going to change my water set up but can anybody give some insight into oxidation...like when you rack it it splash and such. I think that could also be one of my problems..and maybe some of the OPers

I could be wrong here but Im pretty sure that unless you are intentionally aerating your beer before bottling then oxidation would take a lot longer to ruin the beer. My instinct is still saying that unless you are making a basic error in your process (which would make bad beer, not good for a short time beer) you have an infection in your equipment. Try soaking with bleach or something similar which will kill anything trying to live on your equipment, then wash it all down, sanitise as you normally would and see what happens on the next brew. Just my 2c.

Aschecte said:

That would be awesome but not practical someday I will get to the mariana islands. I do believe it is infection but lets all look at another angle here. could we all be thinking about infection when maybe it's high levels of phenols or esters or maybe diacetyl or tannin extraction. bad taste isnt always infection could be other factors in the process effecting the outcome and if bad habits follow through beer to beer than you have consistantly bad beer.

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Thanks again to all
From what I read, the taste of tannin extraction is about right. But I steep for 30 min or less and never above 165 degrees. Also I would think this would show up immediately, not hide until day 10 in the bottle.
Diacetyl is like a butter flavor I’ve read. This I don’t think is it. Also, I read the cure would be to let the beer sit longer in the fermenter. Mine is in for 3 weeks, over 21 days, so I think this is not it.
Phenols taste medicine like. That’s not it I don’t think and its bacteria caused anyway, so if it is it, we are back to sanitation anyway.
Esters is caused by high fermentation temp. Although I have fermented batches in the low 80s, I can now control the temp, and have for several batches including this last one which was good for 10 days, in the mid to upper 60s.
I’m still looking for advise. This is frustrating and I really want to make this work. I am determined, someone else may say obsessed, but that one good 10 day batch really gave me hope.

Don't remember seeing any reference to this so far in this thread so thought I'd ask anyway. Have you actually tried cold conditioning, chilling those beers in the fridge for a week or longer?

Ogri said:

Don't remember seeing any reference to this so far in this thread so thought I'd ask anyway. Have you actually tried cold conditioning, chilling those beers in the fridge for a week or longer?

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No. they were good from day 3 to 10 after being in low 70s and in the fridge for 3 to 24 hours depending on the bottle

Mate, I reckon you should take a couple of bottles and shoot for at least a week in the fridge. I noticed a reasonable bit of a difference, in my inaugural nut brown ale, between 30 hours and about 80 hours in the fridge so I've got a couple in there now to see how they are after a week.

Ogri said:

Mate, I reckon you should take a couple of bottles and shoot for at least a week in the fridge. I noticed a reasonable bit of a difference, in my inaugural nut brown ale, between 30 hours and about 80 hours in the fridge so I've got a couple in there now to see how they are after a week.

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so if its bad tasting I

Ogri said:

Mate, I reckon you should take a couple of bottles and shoot for at least a week in the fridge. I noticed a reasonable bit of a difference, in my inaugural nut brown ale, between 30 hours and about 80 hours in the fridge so I've got a couple in there now to see how they are after a week.

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so if its bad tasting I chill a good beer gone bad and it will be good again?

Never put ice directly into your wort!!

underground and under the influence