108% mash efficiency?!

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bradsul

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I've been rock solid in my setup for over a year now and this new grain mill has really thrown a wrench in my brewery (I switched from corona-style getting 85-89% efficiency) to a monster mill 2-roller.

Well today's brew day went fantastic, I nailed all my temps, the sparge went fantastic (much improved over this thread). Now this time instead of hitting my OG of 1.045 (recipe at 75% efficiency) I hit 1.051 and promash is saying my actual mash system efficiency is 108%.

The recipe is below and I'm thinking that the demerara sugar has messed up the calculations somehow, anyone know how I can adjust the recipe to account properly for the sugar? I found the gravity value for it on the net.

For the record: My hydrometer readings were taken at 60F which is the calibration temperature. My hydrometer is accurate in normal water (re-verified today). The reading was taken in the fermenter and entered into promash efficiency calculator within the brewing session.

Code:
It's Not Dark It's Mild

A ProMash Brewing Session - Recipe Details Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L):          25.00    Wort Size (L):     25.00
Total Grain (kg):         4.45
Anticipated OG:          1.045    Plato:             11.08
Anticipated SRM:          19.1
Anticipated IBU:          22.5
Brewhouse Efficiency:       75 %
Wort Boil Time:             60    Minutes

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used:   Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops:         2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops:      10 %
Additional Utilization Used For First Wort Hops: -10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

   %     Amount     Name                          Origin        Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 56.2     2.50 kg.  Maris Otter                   United Kingdom 1.038      3
 16.9     0.75 kg.  Carastan Malt                 Great Britian  1.035     60
  4.5     0.20 kg.  Chocolate Malt                America        1.029    350
 11.2     0.50 kg.  Flaked Corn (Maize)           America        1.040      1
 11.2     0.50 kg.  Demerara Sugar                Generic        1.047      1

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

   Amount     Name                              Form    Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 40.00 g.     Fuggle                            Pellet   4.75  22.5  First WH


Extras

  Amount      Name                           Type      Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
  1.00 Unit(s)Irish Moss                     Fining    10 Min.(boil) 


Yeast
-----

Danstar  Nottingham


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: Double Decoction

Total Grain kg:     3.95
Total Water Qts:   10.47 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water L:    9.91 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass:   0.00
Grain Temp:        23.28 C


                     Step   Rest   Start   Stop  Heat     Infuse   Infuse  Infuse
Step Name            Time   Time   Temp    Temp  Type     Temp     Amount  Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sacc. Rest             0     60    150     150   Infuse   162        9.91   2.51
Mash Out              15     15    168     168   Decoc    212        3.60   3.13 (Decoc Thickness)


Total Water Qts:           10.47 - After Additional Infusions
Total Water L:              9.91 - After Additional Infusions
Total Mash Volume L:       12.55 - After Additional Infusions

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.
All infusion amounts are in Liters.
All infusion ratios are Liters/Kilograms.

Step Time for Decoction Steps represent how far back in time the Decoction was pulled.
Infusion amounts for Decoction Steps represent the amount pulled for the Decoction.
Infusion ratios for Decoction Steps represent the Decoction Thickness.
 
I always take my readings from the fermenter...but if I set ProMash to "readings taken from fermenter" rather than "readings taken from kettle", I always get absurd #'s like in the high 90's. Something's not right, because I doubt I'm getting that high. Same here. ProMash is off, dude...I'm pretty sure about that. What you need to do is calibrate and verify all the settings in your "water needed" dialog box. It probably defaults to some crap where you're supposedly losing half a gallon to evap between the kettle and the fermenter, which is hogwash. Fiddle with those settings (like it's set to lose 1/2 gal to a CF chiller even though I don't have one) and you'll get it more towards correct.
 
Beer Alchemy has demerara sugar at 1.045 ppg so that seems right.

Are you sure your volume measurements are right? Maybe less liquid there than you think. Only thing I can think of.
 
The recipe is below and I'm thinking that the demerara sugar has messed up the calculations somehow, anyone know how I can adjust the recipe to account properly for the sugar? I found the gravity value for it on the net.

If the gravity is 1.047 like its listed you can change that in.... (Checking promash....) In grains section. (on the bottom, main screen) Find demerara sugar, select it and edit. Set it lower.

FYI - Mine is set at 1.041

Hope this helps!!!!
 
My volumes are all correct and previous to this promash has always been dead solid perfect with the numbers. I've had my system dialed in for a long time now. The only thing that was new about this in terms of ingredients, (the other change was the crush based on the new mill) was the demerara adjunct, I'd never used it before.

I had built this up as an all-grain recipe in promash, I just re-did it as a partial mash and got the same numbers so I'm not sure what's up. Will be interesting to see what happens with my next batch.

It's weird to have problems like this after having the system basically on auto-pilot for over a year now. :D
 
If the gravity is 1.047 like its listed you can change that in.... (Checking promash....) In grains section. (on the bottom, main screen) Find demerara sugar, select it and edit. Set it lower.

FYI - Mine is set at 1.041

Hope this helps!!!!
That actually raised my efficiency to 109%. :D
 
Oh and just so I'm clear: I don't actually think I got 108% efficiency. ;) I'm just trying to figure out where I went wrong. As I said all my volumes are correct and the hydrometer is accurate (and accurately read).

We finally got a beautiful day here on the weekend so I guess something had to mess it up. :D
 
I just plugged that recipe into promash, and with your OG of 1.051, it came out at 90% efficiency. Seems like your new mill is working well. :rockin:

-a.
 
Bradsul, just get over it and admit that you are the Holy God of Efficiency and that we should all bow down to your greatness. Send some of your enlightenment my way.
 
If you're getting 108% efficiency you're creating energy out of nothing. In this forum we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
 
I measure everything carefully, but it's possible my scale has broken - however I doubt it's off enough to cause that much difference. Based on the numbers 90% appears to be correct, I'm thinking it's a bug in promash. I may download a trial version of Beersmith and see what numbers it comes up with.
 
Was SWMBO in the room during the brewing? If she' a bit of a sweetie she might have transfered some latent sugar by proximity... :p
 
I think you would feel more confident if you made just an all grain with the new mill and measured everything carefully. When you throw in other sugars all bets are off. Don't worry, that new mill is adjustable from coarse crush to stuck mash. There is no question that your new mill is up to the task.
 
Stuck mash was in the first thread I mentioned in my OP. :D

I have full confidence in my process, I was just a little shocked with what promash kicked out. I was mostly trying to see if anyone saw any problems with my recipe or if it's just a bug in promash and/or if anyone else had come across this.
 
I use Beer Smith software so I can not comment on what promash does. Like you said, get the trial BeerSmith program and plug in your equipment details and mash type and the recipe and see what it says.
 
I've had Promash say that I have had > 100% efficiency several times, but this is usually because I had entered something incorrectly, so it would not be fair to blame Promash.
I did once have a situation where it reported about 110% efficiency, and I couldn't see any obvious problems in my data. I closed down the efficiency screen and reselected it. Efficiency was 85% (where it should be). I don't know if this was a problem with Promash or not, as I detected a bad bank of RAM a few days later.

-a.
 
This is the first and only 'problem' I've had with promash so I'm not likely to ditch it. I tried out Beersmith back when I was originally looking at software and the combined ingredients list didn't work for me for some reason. I just like having my fermentables and hops split up.

Anyway the wort tasted amazing and Nottingham is doing it's usual kick-a$$ job so I may just chalk this one up to 'meh, whatever' and continue on my merry way. :)
 
Brad, if your cold post boil volume was 25L and its gravity 1.051, I calculate a brewhouse efficiency of 90%. Brewhouse efficiency covers laurtering and mashing.

the brewhouse efficiency is defined as the ratio between the maxium extract that you can get out of a mash and the amount that actually ended up in your brewkettle. The amount that ended up in the kettle is:

extract in kettle = 25l * 0.1275 * 1.051 = 3.35 kg

The 0.1275 is the 12.75 plato of the wort and the 1.051 is the gravity of the worth. 0.5kg of these 3.35kg are the sugar which was added after the lauter and needs to be subtracted from the extract weight. So you had 2.85 kg of extract coming out of the lauter.

The amount of grain going in the lauter was 3.95 kg. I'll assume a maximum extract potential of 80% for that. This the Maris otter may have a little more and so does the maize, but the specialty malts tend to have less. This means the maximum extract you could have gotten from the mash is 3.95kg * 0.8 = 3.16kg.

So your efficiency is

2.85kg /3.16kg * 100% = 90%

Promash must have done something wrong here.
 
Thanks Kaiser, nice to see it all laid out like that. It's the first problem I've ever had with promash numbers and it's also the first time I've used sugar as an adjunct, just the stars aligning for this brew I guess. :D
 
Thanks Kaiser, nice to see it all laid out like that. It's the first problem I've ever had with promash numbers and it's also the first time I've used sugar as an adjunct, just the stars aligning for this brew I guess. :D

I wonder if there is a glitch that takes the potential of the sugar and runs it through as if you mashed it...meaning you only extract 90% of it. It should be going through at 100% efficiency.
 
I wonder if there is a glitch that takes the potential of the sugar and runs it through as if you mashed it...meaning you only extract 90% of it. It should be going through at 100% efficiency.

That's what was running through my head as well.

Kai
 
When I created the demerara entry I made sure to select 'sugar' as the type. But it's looking like that is simply for the categorization in the window, I guess they don't take it into account when it comes to efficiency calculations.
 
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