Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

What sort of magic do you think they employ then to impart the 38ish SRM as stated by BLAM. The beer is DARK as you can see in pictures or may have seen on your own. They either employ a SUPER LONG boil, make their own candi syrup, or buy candi syrup. There is no way they brew that beer with out something to add the color. Maybe they boil it for 4 days with the rests being over night while the monks sleep? Maybe the pope goes to Belgium to perform special papal prayers on the wort. Possibly, because it's a Catholic monastery, they trap pure evil from the world and somehow feed it into their wort where the dark evil beer is consumed by an unassuming public? They're obviously leaving something off their site, conventional wisdom and common sense can tell you that much.

Dark color comes from dark malt. No magic. Candi sugar will not color the beer much.

I disagree. If you go with 15-20% of D180 from Candy Syrup Inc it will certainly get into the 30s. I've brewed a dark strong twice with just pale malt and dark syrup. It tastes great and its as dark as it should be.

Well, I don't really know what to say to the 20% suggestion. Will just reiterate that chocolate malt is almost certainly the item that contributes primarily to color in the westy.

meadowstream said:

Dark color comes from dark malt. No magic. Candi sugar will not color the beer much.

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*RRRRRR* wrong. D2 syrup is 80 SRM per gallon. That means 2 pounds of it will get you 5 gallons of 30 SRM brew.

If you actually read the linked page, it's not a specific guide to brewing to Westy 12. It's a general description of their brewing process. Regardless of how the beer is brewed at the monastery, i really doubt the flavors can be recreated on the homebrew scale without the addition of candi syrup.

Seriously: u think color is largely imparted by candi syrup?

meadowstream said:

Seriously: u think color is largely imparted by candi syrup?

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Candi sugar will not color the beer much.

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dude. Candi syrup will color the beer much, just move on lol

Stan Hieronymus writes in Brew Like a Monk* that the Belgian brewers use pilsner malt and "lean heavily" on the use of dark caramel syrups for color and complexity, whereas American brewers rely on a wider range of specialty malts to accomplish the same.

* p. 241, ed. 1

Just move on lol? That is not in the spirit of hbt. If you have brewed dubbels frequently then you know that candi syrup is not where the color comes from - at least not the largest contribution. Consider the historical basis: candi syrup or malt killed to a darker color? Brewers will make use of what is available first... And specialty sugar syrup is far behind darker malted grain...at least according to occam's razor.

Go ahead and try this recipe w only syrup and pale malt, and try the other way and then let us know how they compare.

For what it's worth, I'm doing exactly that Saturday. I'll post my findings, but i have no doubt that the color will come out fine.

Just want to say that my dubbel has no roasted dark grain. It gets the color from dark candi syrup. It gets flavor from yeast and my mash/boil.

I would tend to believe that many of the monasteries are using syrup instead of dark grain. There's always the possibility they're using sinamar but I doubt it.

Just because dark grain exists and it's the "cheap" quick option doesn't mean they utilize it like homebrewers tend to use it. I tend to not touch special B because I'm not very fond of the flavor it lends to my beer. I opt instead for a blend of darker syrups.

meadowstream said:

Seriously: u think color is largely imparted by candi syrup?

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Yep...

I just brewed a dubbel, tripel, and quadrupel. The dubbel used candi syrup (1# of D-90) for 16 SRM total. Full disclosure though, I also put in 0.25# Special B and 0.25# aromatic. I got about 4 SRM from the Special B and less than 1 SRM from the aromatic. Most came from the D-90. My quad also had 0.25# of Special B, 2# of D-90 and 1# of D-180 for 31 SRM total. I got about 4 SRM from the Special B and other darker grains. And the beers in the fermenter look about right in terms of comparing them to the calculated SRM.

It is not so much that dark malt is cheap as that it was always available...the malting process was not historically as perfectly controlled as it is today and a range of malt was likely always available. Sugar was not always available (and probably not inexpensive, too, at least until the last few decades.)

Do those of you who use only dark syrup find that the sweetness of the alcohol is balanced as well as when you use dark malt?

The secret to balancing the sweetness is to have a well attenuated beer with balanced hop bitterness, not roasted malt. These are not stouts.....

When you make candi syrup at home, what do you start with?

GRANULATED SUGAR.

I could technically say I use granulated sugar in my beer without mentioning that I turn it into a candi syrup first. This is not a stretch.

This recipe, and many many Belgian (St Bernardus, Achel, Westvleteren, Rochefort) and American quadrupels (Boulevard Sixth Glass and Bourbon Barrel Quad, Pretty Things Baby Tree, Southampton Abbot 12, New Glarus Uplugged Abt, etc etc etc)
get 90%+ of their color from dark candi syrup.
There is a pretty easy way to taste and tell as there is a particular flavor that you only get from D1 and the like, its a nutty bean-like note that you do not get from any malt and is present big time in the Westvleteren 12 and less so in the 8.
A high amount of dark roasted malt is inappropriate for both styles as it would lend itself to high amounts of astringency which detracts from the smooth and seductive drinkablility.

saq said:

This recipe, and many many Belgian (St Bernardus, Achel, Westvleteren, Rochefort) and American quadrupels (Boulevard Sixth Glass and Bourbon Barrel Quad, Pretty Things Baby Tree, Southampton Abbot 12, New Glarus Uplugged Abt, etc etc etc)
get 90%+ of their color from dark candi syrup.
There is a pretty easy way to taste and tell as there is a particular flavor that you only get from D1 and the like, its a nutty bean-like note that you do not get from any malt and is present big time in the Westvleteren 12 and less so in the 8.
A high amount of dark roasted malt is inappropriate for both styles as it would lend itself to high amounts of astringency which detracts from the smooth and seductive drinkablility.

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So you don't agree with my pure evil trapped and imprisoned in wort by the Holy Roman Catholic Church? Where do you think all the evil spirits from exorcisms go.....

(I'm catholic btw so I can make fun)

smokinghole said:

So you don't agree with my pure evil trapped and imprisoned in wort by the Holy Roman Catholic Church? Where do you think all the evil spirits from exorcisms go.....

(I'm catholic btw so I can make fun)

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I thought that was funny.

My experience has been that balance is not only abv versus ibu - malt flavor also plays a role. It is true that beginning brewing books do emphasize abv/ibu relationship. Does anyone else use malts to help balance the flavor to achieve the outcome wanted?

Yes but that doesn't just mean roasted malts. Plus in order to get these beers to attenuate to where they should you need to use high proportions of very fermentable sources. Medium temp mashing with very fermentable syrups is what balances these beers with the IBUs utilized. You don't want a beer in the 1.020+ range because it will be too sweet. Westy 12 is high alchohol, it's dark, and it's like 40ibu almost (according to Brew Like A Monk at least).

I am beginning to sense you just like to debate/argue a side. I don't know what else we have to offer you in explanation. I have brewed this a couple times and won with the old world recipe using ONLY dark syrup for color and additional flavor. I won a second place at a comp judged by pro brewers, and I won a best of show at a Belgian only competition. So you be the judge by the results of my beers and others whom have brewed it and won. You go right ahead and throw chocolate or roast barley in there it might turn out good, but it won't be what we're making and aiming for. The best you can likely do is midnight wheat for the dark color with a lack of intense flavor.

Will try a batch w chocolate malt and one w candi sugar only and compare. It seems i am wrong about the total effect of dark candi syrup and i am looking forward to trying it on its own.

You should tone down the aggressiveness hole, it is out of place in a discussion about beer.

Thanks to all for the info on this thread - have enjoyed it since its start.

meadowstream said:

Will try a batch w chocolate malt and one w candi sugar only and compare. It seems i am wrong about the total effect of dark candi syrup and i am looking forward to trying it on its own.

You should tone down the aggressiveness hole, it is out of place in a discussion about beer.

Thanks to all for the info on this thread - have enjoyed it since its start.

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If I come off as aggressive I'll have to apologize, I'm passionate about brewing Belgian ales and its just how I am. Plus its tough to read people's intent through words, and I tend to throw lots of sarcasm into my posts. While I try to make it blatantly obvious I'm being sarcastic it may be difficult for some to read into my true intent. I felt you were coming off as a person that just wanted to foster an argument. You kept saying dark malt while everyone else was saying dark candy sugar.

smokinghole said:

If I come off as aggressive I'll have to apologize, I'm passionate about brewing Belgian ales and its just how I am. Plus its tough to read people's intent through words, and I tend to throw lots of sarcasm into my posts. While I try to make it blatantly obvious I'm being sarcastic it may be difficult for some to read into my true intent. I felt you were coming off as a person that just wanted to foster an argument. You kept saying dark malt while everyone else was saying dark candy sugar.

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syrup. dark candi syrup.

Yeah syrup, sorry I forget those colored sugar rocks still exist. I meant syrup when I said sugar.......

Pulled a sample from the keg today of the NW recipe i brewed back in early November. It's been kegged and sitting at 45-50 degrees for the past 3 months waiting for the right time to bring it out. Couldn't wait any longer and decided to hook up a picnic tap to pour a glass. WOW. that's about all i can say. By far the best beer i've made to date. It's amazing how easy it drinks for being 10%. I'll probably enter this in a few comps just for ****s and giggles.

Just brewed the new world for my first 5 gallin all grain - with a couple changes. I only had dark Candi rocks I made a few days before, so after plugging it into beersmith, I threw them in.

Now, its bubbling away nicely, and has risen so far to 72.

mightynintendo said:

1.)

...

3.) i asked this question myself a while back. it seems that a lot of people hold a low 70's ambient temperature and let the beer self rise to the target temp. at some point you may need to even cool it off to keep it from getting TOO hot. once the temperature starts to drop from its target, that's when you should start heating it externally to hold it at the target for the appropriate length of time. at least this is my understanding.

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Yes. Spot on. At the proper pitch rate and ambient temp the high krausen bio-thermal should reach 81F (some say up to 82F). We've found Abbey yeast produces desirable esters at 68 as at 72F so we no longer use external heating.

Scribble said:

Any hints as to how this version may turn out yet?

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saq is likely a brewing genius (really) but don't tell him I said that

This recipe looks very very good. Possibly under-pitched but saq has ways of coaxing Abbey yeast to do things most brewers generally don't...we'll just have to wait on the blue ribbon to see.

Brewing traditional recipe Friday. Any advice? I plan to add all three pounds of dark candi at flame out and use a heck of a starter. I think I will set my chamber to 79 hoping the internal temp is less than 83.

Set your chamber to 72 after you cool, you'll get a 6+ temp rise over ambient quite easily, then adjust.
I'm brewing a new recipe I've outlined previously this weekend, I'll post more details later. Finally going to use my CSI syrups I've had for oh about a year

Dang! My starter might have blown off too much while on the stir plate. Looks like brew day is going to be delayed a week or so. I made an small 650 ml starter and pitched the slurry into 2 liter starter and I have 1600 ml left. Think another smack pack would get me to the needed cell count?

bhaff said:

Dang! My starter might have blown off too much while on the stir plate. Looks like brew day is going to be delayed a week or so. I made an small 650 ml starter and pitched the slurry into 2 liter starter and I have 1600 ml left. Think another smack pack would get me to the needed cell count?

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I would pitch what you have. It's actually covered in Brew Like a Monk that some breweries doing Belgian style ales are purposefully under pitching, to enhance ester production during the growth phase. There has been some research to indicate that a less than nominal pitch can actually result in a lower FG though I can't link any references to that ATM

I now have 1500 ml and a fresh smack pack. I do understand under pitching to encourage esters but at what point will it stress my yeast to the point of hot alcohol?

Brewed the new world today. Repitched some yeast from a tripel I brewed a few weeks ago. Washed the yeast from one jar and did a starter. It chewed through the 1L starter in no time.

I pitched that, and decided to add the yeaSt from another jar as well.

Might have over pitched it though as its now just over 6 hours since pitching and just started bubbling away. Defitely the fastest of the brews I've done

Can't seem the keep the temps down where I wanted it either. It's in a swamp cooler as my fermentation fridge has been turned back into an extra keg fridge. Currently the water is at 16c(60) and the wort is 23c (73). I have melted all my ice bottles trying to chill the damn thing. Guess it'll be what it'll be just a bit scared about what the temps will get when it really gets going

sockmerchant said:

Brewed the new world today. Repitched some yeast from a tripel I brewed a few weeks ago. Washed the yeast from one jar and did a starter. It chewed through the 1L starter in no time.

I pitched that, and decided to add the yeaSt from another jar as well.

Might have over pitched it though as its now just over 6 hours since pitching and just started bubbling away. Defitely the fastest of the brews I've done

Can't seem the keep the temps down where I wanted it either. It's in a swamp cooler as my fermentation fridge has been turned back into an extra keg fridge. Currently the water is at 16c(60) and the wort is 23c (73). I have melted all my ice bottles trying to chill the damn thing. Guess it'll be what it'll be just a bit scared about what the temps will get when it really gets going

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Unless you live on the surface of the sun I think you'll be ok. Temp control with Belgian yeast is most often left to the yeast themselves. If you try and slow them down, I have read that they can stall out and you can have difficulty hitting final grav.
No temp control also favors esters. I don't think I would try to control it at all.

Some Belgian strains will just plain crash if you dry to reign in their temps. All you can do is hold it and prevent it from going too high really, but you should not try and cool it down.

smokinghole said:

Some Belgian strains will just plain crash if you dry to reign in their temps. All you can do is hold it and prevent it from going too high really, but you should not try and cool it down.

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Yeah that's the plan. I do mostly Belgians so do have a bit of experience with them I tend to try and control the temps for two days to keep the fusal alcohol down, then I let it rise to finish out.

This fermentation is unusually hot in my experience though. At least it's not the chimay yeast. That would be banana central

Ok its sitting at 20C now and bubbling continuously through the blow off tube. Yeast sexy time party