Little Giant vs March Pumps

After a recent thread I saw here about pump alternatives to the March 809, I decided to put the facts out there so people have a reference source. Disclaimer, I own 2 LG 3-MD-MT-HCs and have had no problems for over 12 years. I have never used or seen a March 809 in use.

LG 3-MD-MT-HC

Thermally Protected, Open, Fan-Cooled Motor
Sleeve Bearings
6' Power Cord with 3-Prong Plug
Specific Gravity to 1.1
Fluid Temperature to 200 Degrees F.
Ambient Air Temperature to 77 Degrees F.
Run-dry capability up to 8 hours
NOTE: Consult your local distributor or the
factory for applications with higher ambient
temperatures, specific gravities and viscosities.


Motor ..................................1/25 HP Open FC
RPM ..................................3100
Maximum flow rate ..............8.5GPM
Maximum Head ....................16.2’
Intermittent Liquid Temp. ....200ÞF
Specific gravity ....................1.1
Intake ..................................1/2” MNPT
Discharge ............................1/2” MNPT
Magnet Housing ..................Glass-filled Polyphenylene Sulfide (e.g. Ryton®)
Volute ..................................Glass-filled Polyphenylene Sulfide (e.g. Ryton®)
Impeller Assembly ................Glass-filled Polyphenylene Sulfide (e.g. Ryton®) w/carbon bushing
O-ring ..................................Viton®
Thrust washers ....................Ceramic
Shaft....................................Ceramic
Weight (lbs.) ......................6.5

Electrical
578603 ....................115V, 50/60Hz, 1.3 amps,
94 watts, 1PH 6’ power cord, 3-prong plug.

While the LG is only rate to 200F the materials are rated well above this. It should also be noted that Ryton is also used in the March 809.
Polyphenylene sulfide (Ryton) is an engineering plastic, a high-performance thermoplastic. PPS can be molded, extruded, or machined to high tolerances. In its pure solid form, it may be opaque white to light tan in color. Maximum service temperature is 218 °C (424 °F). PPS has not been found to dissolve in any solvent at temperatures below about 200 °C (392 °F).

PUMP CONSTRUCTION
The patented Little Giant magnetic drive pump design consists of a cylindrical drive magnet attached to the motor shaft which rotates around a chemical resistant plastic separator housing. Inside this housing is a magnet completely encapsulated in chemical resistant plastic, and is fixed to the impeller. The impeller assembly is free to rotate on a spindle that is supported at both ends. The spindle is held captive and does not turn. Front and rear thrust washers are utilized as wear bearings. The washers are held captive and do not revolve. This prevents wear on the shaft. With the magnetic coupling the motor drives the impeller. This coupling eliminates the conventional shaft seal and its possibility of leakage. Two series are available. The HC series handles highly corrosive chemicals at elevated temperatures because of the unique materials used in its construction. The SC series handles semicorrosive fluids. Both series are available with various size pumps, and are available in 115V or 230V, 50/60 Hz versions. The HC models utilize a carbon bushing between the impeller and spindle. The use of this carbon bushing will allow these pumps (HC series) to run dry (without fluid) for up to eight hours at a time. Do not allow the SC models to run dry. They do not have the carbon bushing and heat build up caused by friction will damage the parts when SC models are run dry. All wetted parts can be serviced by removing 4 wing nuts that hold the volute to the housing. The pump head components can easily be replaced in the field if necessary.

PUMP MATERIALS
The plastic parts on SC series pumps are made of glass filled polypropylene. The plastic parts on the HC series pumps are glass filled Ryton®. The spindle shaft which is stationary and the captive thrust washers (front and rear) are alumina ceramic. The O-ring seal is Buna-N for the SC series, and Viton® for HC series. The HC series utilizes a pure carbon bushing in the impeller to enable the pump to run dry for periods up to eight hours at a time.

INSTALLATION
Your Little Giant pump is delivered to you completely preassembled and pretested from the factory. It is ready for immediate use. The pump may be installed in any position. It may be mounted vertically with the pump head down. Proper plumbing connections should be made, see specification table to determine what size intake and discharge your pump has. Use a thread sealer on all pipe connections and hand tighten only. Note: On HC models a roll of Teflon® pipe seal tape is supplied. Do not use a wrench to tighten the HC model connections, excessive force may damage the plastic part. Make sure the wing nuts are tight before operating the pump. Motor nameplates list all electrical data. Make sure the pump is connected to proper voltage before operating. When wiring pumps with no plug, the green (or green/yellow) wire is the ground. The other two wires are line (live). Do not allow the SC models to run dry (without fluid). However, because the HC models utilize a carbon bushing in the impeller they maybe allowed to run dry for periods up to eight hours at a time. These pumps are not submersible, operate the pumps only in the in-line mode. Do not put the units in liquid. Pump should be installed in a dry area and protected from splash. These pumps are not self priming models, they must be installed so that the pump head (volute) is flooded at the time the pump is to be started. That is, the inlet of the pump must be below the level of the surface of the liquid being pumped. (Figure 1). Do not restrict the intake side of the pump. Connections on the intake side should not be of smaller inside diameter pipe or tubing or hose than the intake inside diameter of the intake thread designation. If reduced flow is required restrict the discharge side. Installing a valve or other type of restriction device on the discharge side is the proper method for reducing flow from the pump. When using a valve the pump can be throttled to provide various flow rates and pressures without harming the motor or the pump parts. The motors on these models contain sleeve type bearings. These bearings should be oiled every six months with two to three drops of S.A.E. 20 weight non-detergent oil. The oil holes are located on top at each end of the motor.


Head (ft) Flow (GPH) Head (m) Flow (LPH)
1 500 0.3 1892.7
3 455 0.9 1722.4
6 425 1.8 1608.8
9 355 2.7 1343.8
15 100 4.6 378.5

Manual:
http://franklin-electric.com/media/documents/993236.pdf

Specifications:
http://franklin-electric.com/media/documents/995778.pdf

809-PL-HS Mag Drive Pump
Polysulfone (Front Housing), Stainless Steel (Rear Housing), Teflon (Thrust Washer), Silicone (O-Ring), Ryton/Teflon/Glass (Impeller)

DESCRIPTION:
Your March hot water booster pump is a non-self priming unit built to handle liquid transfer in heating and cooling operations. Applications include home heating systems, solar heating systems, heat recovery systems and recirculating water in domestic and commercial hot water tanks. Contact the factory for applications other than those listed, and for liquids other than water.

Installation:
The pump is assembled and ready for installation. The pump should be mounted with the Electric Conduit Box on the bottom. The oil ports will then be on the top of the motor. The pump housing should be installed with the arrow on our housing pointing in the direction of the water flow within the system. If the arrow indicating water flow is not in the direction you require when the motor is in position, remove the four round housing screws (Item 1) holding the housing to the motor assembly and rotate the housing assembly as required. Replace the four screws and tighten. The pump is made up of two basics sub-assemblies. They are the Wet End Assembly and the Motor/Bracket/Drive Magnet Assembly. To separate the 2 assemblies, simply remove the 4 round head screws (Item 1). The pump will then separate into the 2 sub-assemblies. The water will still be contained within the Wet End assembly unless you loosen the screws on the rear of the Wet End Assembly.

LUBRICATION:
The motor should be oiled at least once a year at the start of the heating season with 4 or 5 drops of SAE 20 weight non-detergent oil in each bearing. If the pump is used year around it should be oiled every six months. Do not over oil. No oiling is required on the ball bearing motors.




Max Flow 6 GPM 18.9 LPM
Max Head 12.1 FT 2.5 M
Power .04 HP .029 KW
Electrical 115V 50/60HZ or 230V 50/60HZ
Submersible Non-Submersible
60HZ 50HZ

Performance Curve:
http://www.marchpump.com/site/files/966/112196/382493/524057/Performance_Curve.pdf

Manual:
http://www.marchpump.com/site/files/966/112196/382493/524058/Pump_Manual.pdf

I've been using a Little Giant 3-MD-MT-HC pump for nearly 8 years without a single problem. I've found it to be a very reliable and trouble free work horse. It also runs very quietly which I like a lot. So quiet that sometimes I have to check to see if it's actually running. I give the LG a big thumbs up. I really like how easy it is to remove the pump head for inspection and cleaning. There really hasn't been any maintenance required other than that. The 200*F max temp spec is not very applicable to our applications as we are running at very low pressures compared to what it is designed to handle.

I have not owned a march, but my LG works great. It can run dry for 8 hrs without damage. March doesn't say that. The LG is super quiet. It's quieter than my sump pumps, for sure, at a higher GPM.

Other than that, they are basically the same. March claims that everyone stole their design, including LG. Certainly a Chugger is a direct copy of a march, from what I've seen.

I have heard that the LGs move a bit more liquid at the same rating than the March. (seen in youtube videos...)

EDIT: I have the 2-MD-HC. Its a 1/25th HP pump. It's enough for me. Maybe not totally enough for a kick but clean in place system, but enough for my recirculating chill cycle. Easily get a nice whirlpool w/ 15 gals. (wow, after writing that.mmm... I'd like to be in a whirlpool with 15 gals at once...ok, back to reality). With 2 ft of head, I get 5.5 GPM. Just had to make sure I didn't have any small bore fittings in there...

We wont say that (8hrs w/o damage) due to the fact that most of our customers run these in industrial applications. And there's no way to verify that time frame. If you wanted a carbon bushing in the impeller for instances of running dry, we do install them as options. But there's a reason the medical industry wont use carbon bushings in ANY application....the carbon bushings give off particulates as they wear....will it harm you...probably not. But keep in mind that carbon is a free radical.
As far as comparing the 809 to the LG-3....they are not in the same class. It would be like comparing a 1/2 ton Chevy short bed standard cab pickup to a 1/2 ton ford extended cab long bed....both are pickups, both are 1/2 tons but they are not quite the same. A closer comparison to the LG-3 would be our series 3 pump like the BC-3B-MD we just came out with for the brewers. 10gpm , 20' of head height, 1/15hp and made of the same Polysulphone plastic as the 809's are made from so they are rated to 250*F
But again its a close but not exact comparison.

Tell ya what Bigscience, PM me your addy and I will send you a BC-3B pump for you to do a side by side for everyone.

-Walter

How about I pm you my address, you send me a pump, and I'll report back anything you want me to say ;-)

J/k...I already use yours and it was one of my best brewing investments.

-Walter

PM sent. Now to design some quantitative tests.

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I have used both a LG MD-5-HC 1/8 hp and a March AC-5d-MC 1/8HP and the LG wins in both flow and head

Henrythe9th said:

I have used both a LG MD-5-HC 1/8 hp and a March AC-5d-MC 1/8HP and the LG wins in both flow and head

Click to expand...

Not quite sure how thats possible since they both have the exact same output specs but ok

-Walter

WalterAtMarchPump said:

We wont say that (8hrs w/o damage) due to the fact that most of our customers run these in industrial applications. And there's no way to verify that time frame. If you wanted a carbon bushing in the impeller for instances of running dry, we do install them as options. But there's a reason the medical industry wont use carbon bushings in ANY application....the carbon bushings give off particulates as they wear....will it harm you...probably not. But keep in mind that carbon is a free radical.
As far as comparing the 809 to the LG-3....they are not in the same class. It would be like comparing a 1/2 ton Chevy short bed standard cab pickup to a 1/2 ton ford extended cab long bed....both are pickups, both are 1/2 tons but they are not quite the same. A closer comparison to the LG-3 would be our series 3 pump like the BC-3B-MD we just came out with for the brewers. 10gpm , 20' of head height, 1/15hp and made of the same Polysulphone plastic as the 809's are made from so they are rated to 250*F
But again its a close but not exact comparison.

Tell ya what Bigscience, PM me your addy and I will send you a BC-3B pump for you to do a side by side for everyone.

-Walter

Click to expand...

I am a carbon based organism, so I have no concerns about the possibility of minute quantities of carbon getting into my system. I'm sure a lot of it gets onto the steaks I Barbeque regularly. There's probably a bit of carbon in the water I push through my filter as well. I can't see it at all, even though it's really, really black. The air we breathe likley has far more carbon particulates in it than what we might ingest from whatever a pump generates. Think coal burning power plants and diesel tractors belching that stuff out 24/7.

Catt22 said:

I am a carbon based organism, so I have no concerns about the possibility of minute quantities of carbon getting into my system. I'm sure a lot of it gets onto the steaks I Barbeque regularly. There's probably a bit of carbon in the water I push through my filter as well. I can't see it at all, even though it's really, really black. The air we breathe likley has far more carbon particulates in it than what we might ingest from whatever a pump generates. Think coal burning power plants and diesel tractors belching that stuff out 24/7.

Click to expand...

All true points.....but no bushings are just pure carbon...ours, for instance, are a carbon/graphite mix. Yes i know Graphite is another form of Carbon, but whats the binder/glue they use to hold the carbon/graphite together made of?? You cant just press raw carbon into shape...it needs a binder to hold its shape or it would just crumble. I made a call into the 3 different company's that makes our bushings for us....they wont tell me what the binder is because they all say its "proprietary"
I did get one of them to tell me that the bushings are "grandfathered" in by the FDA and labled as G.R.A.S. (or Genneraly Recognised As Safe) due to the fact they have been in use since the 1930's.
I also did get one guy to tell me that ONE compund they use in the production of these carbon bushings is Coal Tar Pitch. The very same stuff that they use on your flat roof's between the layers of fiber paper to seal the roof!!

-Walter

All us consumers know is what we hear, such as the 8 hour thing and the LGs are not food grade thing.

FYI- as per an LG tech, the only thing not food grade about their mag drive pumps is the little drop of lube they put on the inside to aid installation of the parts during manufacturing. He says this washes out the first use, basically, but they don't certify or what not for food grade.

Makes sense. Am I wrong in saying there is virtually no difference at all in the wetted part of either an LG or March. They're both polysulfone (or whatever plastic it is, can't remember). One is as food grade as the other in the end. Maybe March uses KY for the same purpose (KY is actually food grade, from what I've been told).

Hey Walter, would a March 809 then be more similar to my LG 2-MD-HC 1/25 HP in flow then? For me, I wouldn't need anything else more powerful except for a CIP pump. I was really looking for a center inlet pump and at $180 it fit the bill.

No the LG-2 falls in between our series 2 and the series 3 pumps....i would probably put you in the new 3B pump. The LG-2 is rated for 550gph our series 3 pumps do 600gph. The series 2 falls a little short as it does 330gph.
The 809's are realy in a different class all together. Their original design was for a hot oil transfer pump for the food industry, As in French fry's
They have since been adopted by the Solar industry for domestic hot water use. The radiant floor industry for home heating. They are being toyed with right now with 2 different auto mfg's for their Hybrid car systems. Obviously the home brewers like them for the high temps they can with stand. And there's even a guy right now that is marketing the 809 DC versions to be used as a generator to be used on domestic water pressure to give small power for lights!

And we do use a small amount of pharmaceutical grade glycerin for assembly of our pumps.

-Walter

SankePankey said:

I was really looking for a center inlet pump and at $180 it fit the bill.

Click to expand...

Pardon my ignorance as i dont brew and am still catching up on terms here but whats CIP? If all you want is a cheap center inlet pump that wont see temps above 190*F then go with the AC-3Cp-MD it has a list price of $188..... i believe someone just PM'd me a link asking about one thats listed on eBay by one of our distributors....i think they were selling it for around $140. Maybe they will post the link up here for you as i dont have the PM's anymore...

-Walter

Clean In Place. For my rotating spray nozzle to clean my primary fermenters.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#71445T84

I have to end up using a scrubby anyways, so what's the point.. Just need a stronger pump for that purpose as I am just not getting the water speed I would have hoped for with that pump. In that my boil kettle is a 17.5 gallon sink, it is shallow and wide especially since I like to end w/ 15 gallons. Thus, I can't take a really fast whirlpool. I did measure the flow rate and I am getting 5.5 gallons per minute, so not bad at all, just not good enough for a push button CIP.

EDIT: that flow rate is also thru a 30 plate chiller and some 1/2" loc-line.

Ah! if this pump will be dedicated for your spray nozzle then i would probably tell you to go with either the 320-CP-MD or the 335-CP-MD
They are our high head low flow pumps...the 320 can do 17psi but only 3gpm...the 335 will do a max of 29psi and 12gpm
They are a bit pricier though. The 320 has a list price of $310 and the 335 is $578
What you need is more of a positive displacement pump like a gear drive or peristaltic or even diaphram pump that can do high pressures to work a spray nozzle...

-Walter

I have peristaltic and sump pumps on my rig.

The peristaltics are meant for slow (sparging) and the sumps are rated at 5 GPM as well.

Want me to 'test' one of those for you .

I received the March AC-3B-MD for evaluation last Thursday. The first thing I noticed was the ¾ inch inlet and 3 foot plugless cord. The next day I went to the local hardware store to get the parts I needed to test it out. (I should also note that the included literature states that the pump has ¾ inlet and outlet however the outlet is ½ inch.) I tossed around the idea of using all ¾ for the inlet on the March setup but in the real world, I don’t know any brewers that have ¾ hoses, tubing and valves. In the end I picked up a ¾ to ½ bushing that would allow me to use all ½ components commonly found in brewing setups.

Prior to starting the wet tests I took both pumps (LG 3-MD-MT-HC and March AC-3B-MD) apart to compare designs and measure components. Both pumps have a similar internal design, a 4 bladed impeller attached to a magnet that spins around a ceramic shaft.

March:


LG:



The March impeller is about 10% larger than the LG, measuring 61mm vs 55mm.





The magnet is also larger at 27.5mm x 32mm long vs 29.4mm x 27mm long for the LG. This may not be a benefit due to magnet material however. The chamber of the March is also slightly larger at 66.9mm diameter 19.5mm deep compared to 68.9mm diameter x 17.2mm deep for the LG. This equates to 69mL and 64mL respectively or 6.9% larger chamber for the March pump.


One of the concerns that is frequently brought up with respect to the LG 3-MD-MT-HC is that it is not rated above 200F and is not listed as food grade. I’ve used mine for a long time with no issues but with it apart, I decided to look closer at the carbon bushings. (Yes I’m ashamed to admit that I’ve never taken this one apart before. I’ve always CIPed it.) The first thing I noticed when I pulled the ceramic shaft out was the black residue on the ends. I also used a q-tip to swab the inside of the impeller and the ends of the housings. To my surprise there was a large amount of residue that I was able to remove.



I’m not sure if this is carbon being extracted from the pump or just 12 years of build up. I’m certainly going to be more vigilant about cleaning this after a few more batched to see what’s going on. I’m also looking into having a friend’s lab run TOC (Total Organic Carbon) and IC (Inorganic Carbon) on water pre and post pumping through at temp to see if there is any detectable carbon being worn off. I’m also thinking about running pre and post carbon filtration as well to see how all the numbers compare.


Recently I’d emailed Franklin Electric, manufacture of Little Giant Pumps, to see what their take on this application of their pumps is. Here is the exact response I received:

“Thank you for contacting Franklin Electric, manufacture of Little Giant Pumps. Our 3-MD-MT-HC # 578603 is rated for fluid temperatures up to 200F, we do not recommend this pump to be used in temperatures above 200F. Please also be advised that this pump is not food rated.”

I’m not sure if this is just CYA or not but the response was immediate.


Wet Testing

To test the pumps performance in the brewing setting, I set up my kettle with room temp water that would be pumped from the kettle (1/2 inch OD stainless dip tube, ½ inch 3 piece ball valve, polysulphone QD, ½ inch silicone tubing) to a fermentor placed on the ground. To measure the flow rate, I put the container on my grain scale and put a stop watch next to the display. I videoed the operation so I could review each run and record the data later using stills. One difficulty was that if the valve on the kettle is open, it will siphon into the container. I had to start the timer, open the valve and turn on the pump at the same time. Since this would introduce some inaccuracies, I only began to chart data once 1kg (1L) was obtained. I ran each test three times to review reproducibility. For the data analysis, I didn’t look at the time to reach a certain volume but the slope of the data. This would eliminate any startup issues.

March:
Run 1………18.478 L/min
Run 2………18.330 L/min
Run 3………18.195 L/min
Mean…….…18.334 L/min
STDEV……..0.14
%CV………..0.8%


LG:
Run 1………17.604 L/min
Run 2………17.701 L/min
Run 3………17.590 L/min
Mean………17.632 L/min
STDEV……..0.06
%CV………..0.3%

On average, the March pump was 4% faster.



The same test was performed but pushing through a 40 Plate Duda Chiller.

March:
Run 1………14.319 L/min
Run 2………15.355 L/min
Run 3………15.400 L/min
Mean……….15.025 L/min
STDEV……..0.61
%CV………..4.1%

LG:
Run 1………14.372 L/min
Run 2………14.334 L/min
Run 3………14.320 L/min
Mean………14.342 L/min
STDEV……..0.03
%CV………..0.2%

On average, the March was 4.8% faster. (7.2% if you exclude the Run 1 outlier data.)




Also during the test runs, I pulled out my sound meter and measured the output of the two pumps under load. The March came in at 58db at 3 feet and the LG was at 59db.


Street Value:
While the insert that came with the March AC-3B-MD said suggested retail $273.00, I was easily able to find on online for $191.10

http://www.tescopumps.com/servlet/the-429/MAR-AC-dsh-3B-dsh-MD--fdsh--115V/Detail

I was also able to find the LG 3-MD-MT-HC for $160.11

[URL="http://www.plumbersurplus.com/Prod/Little-Giant-3-MD-MT-HC-1-25-HP-500-GPH-@-1-Magnetic-Drive-Pump-6-power-cord-(578603)/57399/Cat/1006”]http://www.plumbersurplus.com/Prod/Little-Giant-3-MD-MT-HC-1-25-HP-500-GPH-@-1-Magnetic-Drive-Pump-6-power-cord-(578603)/57399/Cat/1006 [/URL]

Conclusion:
As time allows, I’m also going to pump through my 25ft HERMS coil and a CFC as well to see how the flow rates stack up and post the results. For now though, I think the new March AC-3B-MD is a strong competitor that is getting a “Buy” rating from the Underbrewers Laboratory. My only complaint is the short cord. This is easy enough to replace however.

That's exactly what I found too

There will be a pump eventually that will have a 6' cord with a plug on the end. Our motor mfg is giving us grief with the small qty we buy with this setup and we are trying to keep the costs down. If anyone buys the current version and needs a longer cord with plug, i will splice (solder and heat shrink) an extention on for you at no cost. I have a few cords w/plugs that i have taken off of other defective motor assembly's that i can add on for you guys. It would only be your dime to get it to me here

Also with the 1/2" inlet line you are not getting the full output of the pump. If you had a 3/4" line on it then you would probably be closer to 30 lpm ......through the chiller i'm not sure what the restriction of that thnig is so i wont guess

Oh and if you wanted to test the LG and March easier, flow rate wise....just flood the pumps...turn the discharge valve off.....then turn each one on and then open the discharge valve and conduct your flow testing. As long as theres liquid inside the pump head and primed you can run it fully shut off without issue.


-Walter

Nice review by the way

-Walter

Oh, one more thing....as far as LG stating its not food rated.....neither are our pumps. From the stand point of haveing any certifications anyway. All the materials we use are FDA approved for potable water use. To get a certification (Like NSF) you need to nail it down for a certain application. In our case it would end up being only water as we dont know what it will be used for in the end. As soon as anything else goes through the pump it would void the certification. I can happily tell you all that our pumps are used in ALOT of food industry areas. The companys that make equipment, that use our pumps, go through the certification process for the entire piece of equipment....and we have yet to have one not pass due to our pumps

-Walter

For the chiller side I could have turned off that valve but for the straight kettle run I didn't have any extra valves around to put on the pump outputs. The way I crunched the data eliminates the startup variability though.

As for the 3/4 vs. 1/2, I could have gone all 3/4 but I didn't think this would be as applicable to the real world application since most people use all 1/2. On another note, the flow rates this high will be meaningless because I always have to throttle back the flow to not compact the grain bed or because the chiller water can't keep up with the flow. Maybe it would be an issue if longer runs/heights are involved, we'll see with future tests. Realistically, this pump is more than suitable for 10gal batches.

Oh, and the cord thing isn't that big of a deal. Really it's the only bad thing I had to say about the pump. Based on the tinkerer nature if homebrewers, most people will install a longer cord anyway.

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Excellent thread and review!!

Thanks!

John

Great information!!! I am in the market for a pump and this was very helpfull!

I have to thank you as well, great review overall! I only have experience with LG pumps in the past, specifically the MD-SC-3, and know that it runs silent as a greased wheel. However, after hearing complaints about the decibels put out by March pumps, that is really the only concern that I have about them, especially after reading this thread. So in the side by side, did you notice any difference in the volume of operation between the two? In the end, performance is my primary criteria, but if I can't hear the rest of my system in action (or the obligatory background tunes) that could be a problem. Thanks again for the thorough review, and thanks to Walter for his attention to our community!

What I found was that the LG and March (new model) were equivocal in terms of both flow rate and operational noise. Realistically though, the flow rates are way more than a home brewer could use due to grain bed compaction and chiller efficiency. Based on the gunk I found in my LG pump, when it's time to replace it, I'd go with the new March. Hope that helps.

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