Brewpastor's House CAP

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Brewpastor

Beer, not rocket chemistry
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Messages
4,628
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Location
Corrales, New Mexico
I am really loving this brew and have yet another batch of it chilling. So I thought I would pass it along for anybody who might be interested.

[size=+2]Neo-Classical American Pilsner[/size]
[size=+1]2-C Classic American Pilsner[/size]
Author: Thomas C. Hart



Size: 15.0 gal
Efficiency: 75.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 167.02 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.050 (1.044 - 1.060)
|==============#=================|
Terminal Gravity: 1.013 (1.010 - 1.015)
|================#===============|
Color: 4.43 (3.0 - 6.0)
|===============#================|
Alcohol: 4.94% (4.5% - 6.0%)
|============#===================|
Bitterness: 30.5 (25.0 - 40.0)
|=============#==================|

[size=+1]Ingredients:[/size]
20.0 lb Standard 2-Row
6.0 lb Yellow Corn (Pregelatinized Flakes)
1.0 lb Sauer Malt
1.0 lb Melanoidin Malt
46.0 g Centennial (10.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60.0 min
20.0 g Centennial (10.0%) - added during boil, boiled 20.0 min
20.0 g Centennial (10.0%) - added during boil, boiled 10.0 min
20.0 g Centennial (10.0%) - added during boil, boiled 5.0 min
20.0 g Centennial (10.0%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min
0.0 ea WYeast 2633 Octoberfest Lager Blend

[size=+1]Schedule:[/size]
Ambient Air: 70.0 °F
Source Water: 60.0 °F
Elevation: 0.0 m

00:00:00 Batch Sparge - Sparge #2: 10.0 gal sparge @ 168.0 °F, 0.0 min; Total Runoff: 10.25 gal
00:15:00 Mash In - Liquor: 10.5 gal; Strike: 160.24 °F; Target: 150.0 °F
01:15:00 Saccrification Rest - Rest: 60.0 min; Final: 150.0 °F

[size=+1]Notes[/size]
2.5 gallons for chile beer

87 g medium green chile, frozen and chopped
4 g coriander seed, crushed
1 g cumin seed, crushed
.25 g saffron

chile and herbs placed in tea strainers and soaked in secondary.

second:
7 g coriander
2 g cumin
140 g chile


[size=-1]Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.1[/size]
 
I'll take your word for it being a good beer, but IMO it's not really a Classic American Pilsner. A real CAP would use six row for the base malt and Cluster hops for bittering along with some imported noble hops for the late additions. I don't know much about sauer malt, but doubt it was a traditional ingredient. Don't know why you would need the melanoidin malt as it shouldn't be particularly heavy in body. The American hops are a poor choice for an American lager IMO.

Interesting recipe though and glad you are enjoying it. That's really what counts.
 
Ok, I gotta step up and give cat some props. He had a pretty good showing at a couple of shows, especially with a CAP. Check out Table 1, Mr. Z from Cincy. That was one of a couple of top 3 placements that he had last weekend.

No offense Reverend - I love your stuff !
 
Everything looks awesome. I'm looking for an interesting out-of-the-box beer for the summer.

Just one question:

What are these "grams" you speak of? Some strange new language here in the new world. :D
 
Ok, I gotta step up and give cat some props. He had a pretty good showing at a couple of shows, especially with a CAP. Check out Table 1, Mr. Z from Cincy. That was one of a couple of top 3 placements that he had last weekend.

No offense Reverend - I love your stuff !


Thanks Larry! Yes, I am somewhat familiar with the style and Centennial hops have no place in it whatsoever. Call that beer what you want, but it ain't a Classic American Pilsner IMO.
 
Thanks Larry! Yes, I am somewhat familiar with the style and Centennial hops have no place in it whatsoever. Call that beer what you want, but it ain't a Classic American Pilsner IMO.

I respect your opinion and know it reflects the BJCP guidelines. But I have been brewing long enough to know that liberties can be taken with great results. Seeing how you have not tasted this particular recipe, I do not see how you can pass judgment on it. The scores it received in the SW regionals back up its quality. Each of us can brew as we wish and the proof related to style is flavor and not how the flavors came about. There are many roads to great brews. You brew your way, I will brew mine.

I congratulate you on your success.
 
I respect your opinion and know it reflects the BJCP guidelines. But I have been brewing long enough to know that liberties can be taken with great results. Seeing how you have not tasted this particular recipe, I do not see how you can pass judgment on it. The scores it received in the SW regionals back up its quality. Each of us can brew as we wish and the proof related to style is flavor and not how the flavors came about. There are many roads to great brews. You brew your way, I will brew mine.

I congratulate you on your success.

I want to congratulate you, Brewpastor, on your restraint and eloquence. :D

Having said that, I think I may give this a shot, but I'll have to use something along the lines of Nottingham.
 
I respect your opinion and know it reflects the BJCP guidelines. But I have been brewing long enough to know that liberties can be taken with great results. Seeing how you have not tasted this particular recipe, I do not see how you can pass judgment on it. The scores it received in the SW regionals back up its quality. Each of us can brew as we wish and the proof related to style is flavor and not how the flavors came about. There are many roads to great brews. You brew your way, I will brew mine.

I congratulate you on your success.

Fair enough I suppose. So how did you place in the SW regionals? FWIW, my CAP placed a first in the Eastern regionals. Can you top that?
 
Fair enough I suppose. So how did you place in the SW regionals? FWIW, my CAP placed a first in the Eastern regionals. Can you top that?

Who crapped in your Wheaties? I am not seeking to make this a pissing contest. If you want to start comparing brewing pedigree I have no problem, but that is not my intent. I simply shared a recipe. You don't like the recipe. Fine. Go brew whatever you want. I personally think you need to learn some sandbox skills.
 
Who crapped in your Wheaties? I am not seeking to make this a pissing contest. If you want to start comparing brewing pedigree I have no problem, but that is not my intent. I simply shared a recipe. You don't like the recipe. Fine. Go brew whatever you want. I personally think you need to learn some sandbox skills.

So how did you place in the regionals?
 
I have no problem posting my score. I received a 40.5 It did not place. The top score was a 42.5 and the first 3 finishers were all Cont. Pils. The comments were great. It rated top marks in stylistic accuracy, intangibles, and was one box down in technical merit (same from both judges). One judge suggested more hop bitterness for the style, the other picked up slight DMS.
 
Yeah Cat- I didn't want a pissin match! I stepped up for you, and you made a point about the exactness of the style.

The really great thing about brewing is we can all do our own thing! This is how many styles were created!
 
I just tapped into my CAP (Lindy Hop) and am loving it. I did use Cluster for an aroma hop, but was definitely not BJCP in using Cascade for flavor (homegrown by my friend Linda) and Sorachi Ace for bittering. I'm totally loving SA for lagers, it just seems a little extra refreshing. I use SA hops for bittering in all my various light lagers, including the one that just took 1st in the Northeast region for light lager - and it's score was less than brewpastors CAP (by several points).
 
For bittering I find them extremely smooth, with a touch of that something extra refereshing. I don't really notice any lemon with a 60 min or FWH, but that could be the subtle something extra. Oh yeah, I usually FWH with them. Last year I used them in a light lager (OG 1.040) as a 5 min addition and that one was noticibly lemony. I'd have to check my notes, but this was probably with just 1/4 oz. I don't like to use much aroma hops in my lagers. What was odd with this beer (all Ger 2-row) is the lemon got stronger as the beer aged - to the point when I entered it in a contest I was worried they'd think I added fruit to it. I can double check my notes if you are interested.

I just brewed an American wheat (I'm shooting for a Kristal on this one) and I used SA at 15 and 5 min. I'm looking for some really fruity flavors in this beer (without adding fruit) so I also used Pacific Gem for bittering (FWH) and also at 15 min. I've used PA Gem in a wheat before at 15 min. and got a tremendous berry aroma. The smell coming out of the fermentor was incredibly fruity.
 
Post what you come up with for the Sorachi Ace hops. I've got about 4 ounces stashed in the freezer that I'm wondering what to do with.
 
I have never used Sorachi Ace hops and know nothing about them. What are they like?
Yeah, they are lemony! I used them once, for this recipe and I wasn't exactly crazy about them. I don't think it was a good match for my IPA and I'll sub Summit next time I brew it. Just too much lemon/citrus bitterness for my tastes.

And I've got ~7 oz. in my hop freezer that I have no idea what to do with.

And to chime in, it probably isn't a "true to style" CAP, but it looks interesting and pretty tasty for warm weather drinking. Besides, Jamil pretty much wrote the latest BJCP guildelines himself, so it is really one man's opinion.;):D A man who carries a lot of weight, sure. But still, just one man. Okay, maybe him and a couple other guys, but you get my drift...
 
Not really cascade like. Definite lemon, NOT orange, NOT grapefruit, not generic "citrusy" How to describe it? Not as rich/full in flavor, but very light and crisp and to the point. Really pleasant, smooth bitterness for a high AA hop. I'm thinking about making an IPA and dry hopping with it, in combination with PA Gem. I think it will be tricky to match with other hops in an IPA - particularly if one is looking for a strong lemon. A little touch could be nice in a citrus bomb to add some complexity. Otherwise I think would clash with the other citrusy hops. I also think it wouldn't play well with lots of malt character either, particularly the more caramelly flavors. I think it might do better with bready flavors. For my standard IPA grain bill I might swap out the caramel malt for some aromatic or biscuit. Kind like how orange goes well with chocolate, but not really lemon

Could be nice in a Belgian pale ale. I've recently had some De Ranke XX special Bitter which is really nice and uses Saaz hops but I could see swapping it for SA

It might do well with a woody kind of hops - think lemony iced tea. I typically don't like the woodsy hops in a lager, but this combo might be OK. I've recently had a number of commerical lagers with Glacier, fuggles, etc. and decided I didn't like them in a lager.

A brief word on PA Gem. I love this hop too, but I haven't got it dialed in yet. Most of the time I use this I find the bitterness to be a bit harsh, even after I've started treating my water for high carbonates. I find it takes longer to mellow out. In the current wheat, the sample going into the fermentor was much more bitter than I expected. I don't mind though as I'm looking for something not to style, being clear and more agressively hopped. What I'm shooting for is to make a Reinheitsgebot "wine cooler"
 
Your woodsie hop comment has me thinking about Northern Brewers with their woodsie, minty character. What about SAs with NB in a biscuit accented Steam?

I am just going to have to get a few ounces and start playing around.
 
If you're going to be playing around with "fruity" hops, you might give Bramling Cross a try. I find them extremely fruity, but I'll be damned if I could tell you what fruit they are like. Some describe it as black currant/lemon, but I don't get any lemon out of them. As for the black currant...ehh maybe. They're very unique though and worth some experimentation.
 
If you're going to be playing around with "fruity" hops, you might give Bramling Cross a try. I find them extremely fruity, but I'll be damned if I could tell you what fruit they are like. Some describe it as black currant/lemon, but I don't get any lemon out of them. As for the black currant...ehh maybe. They're very unique though and worth some experimentation.

I have used them in the past, but they have dropped off my radar of late. I have a ESB recipe around someplace that used them.

So many hops, so little liver...
 
Style guidelines are style guidelines. If you can brew a beer and it's close enough to the style guideline to call it X style then I say go for it. If it's unique, or too far outside the style guideline, that's what Category 23 is for. Judging is so subjective anyway that you could be dead on and one judge would still give a lower score or find something like diacetyl or another off flavor in a good beer.

Anywho, looks like a damn fine recipe. I wish I had the time and money to brew all of the great recipes I've seen on this forum. At least I've finally gotten smart and started to use all of your recipes instead of trying to build something myself. (Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I like brewing something that has enough comments that I know what the end result is going to be.)
 
I have used them in the past, but they have dropped off my radar of late. I have a ESB recipe around someplace that used them.

So many hops, so little liver...

Oh good, so few people have heard of them it's nice to hear about someone else's experience with them. How would you describe the fruitiness they have?
 
I'm still curious about the sauer malt. Are you going for a slight barrel aged Brett-like tartness? Added crispness? I'm really intrigued by its use here.

Chad
 
This form is a great place to check out ideas and gather new ones.

I agree that judging is really a subjective game. It is about style and hitting the mark as the judges see it. I judge and try to be objective and all, but the guidelines are what we have to go by. I have dinged great beers that did not fit the style on a number of occasions. Likewise I have had many beers dinged for the same reason. I have also had beers dinged for reasons that made no sense style wise. Hopefully I have not done the same, but I bet I have. I have been judging for nearly 20 years after-all!
 

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