Plastic contaminated?

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schwibbidy

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I was talking with a guy working at my LHBS and was asking him why I can't get a good batch of beer that doesn't seem contaminated and he informed me that if any of my plastic gets contaminated it will get any other plastic that touches the contamination and make it contaminated as well. He said I would need to replace pretty much all of my plastic and hoses any suggestions?
 
You could first try firebombing as we call it everything with Bleach.....But are you sure you're beer is contaminated, or are you just tasting green beer and thinking it is infected, when in reality, like many new brewers, you sample it too young?
 
You said 'seems' contaminated. When it is contaminated, you will know. You may have off flavors due to your process, rather than contamination. Give all of your equipment a good soak in some oxiclean, and in the meantime tell us how you brew.
 
Plastics can get contaminated through scratches that harbor bacteria that sanitizer cannot reach effectively. Plastic to plastic contact will not contaminate other pieces of equipment. If you are having issues with infected beer, consider a new bucket (and new airlock and stopper if it makes you feel better) and maybe upgrade your sanitizer. What are you using? Star San is pretty popular and very effective.
 
I use starsan after I wash everything in PBW and have done 3 batches so far.

My first batch was sour and definitely contaminated because even 8 months later the beer was sour and undrinkable. My second batch I followed Palmers book to a T and I believe I did have the "green beer" taste because I sampled too early but even after 4-5 weeks later there still was a sour/acidic taste which I've been reading could have been from me steeping my grains in boiling water instead of 150-160 degree water.

I just got a brand new pot and spigots and did a batch this weekend for a stout. Everything is new so far that I've used except for the carboy, stopper and airlock which are still old equipment from the first two batches. I'm going to use the old equipment for the rest of the process and see if it is an equipment issue
 
schwibbidy said:
I use starsan after I wash everything in PBW and have done 3 batches so far.

My first batch was sour and definitely contaminated because even 8 months later the beer was sour and undrinkable. My second batch I followed Palmers book to a T and I believe I did have the "green beer" taste because I sampled too early but even after 4-5 weeks later there still was a sour/acidic taste which I've been reading could have been from me steeping my grains in boiling water instead of 150-160 degree water.
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No offense, but if you followed his book to a T you wouldn't be steeping grains in boiling water. We need more detail about what you do in your process (step by step), fermentation temperatures, etc.
 
schwibbidy said:
I use starsan after I wash everything in PBW and have done 3 batches so far.

My first batch was sour and definitely contaminated because even 8 months later the beer was sour and undrinkable. My second batch I followed Palmers book to a T and I believe I did have the "green beer" taste because I sampled too early but even after 4-5 weeks later there still was a sour/acidic taste which I've been reading could have been from me steeping my grains in boiling water instead of 150-160 degree water.

I just got a brand new pot and spigots and did a batch this weekend for a stout. Everything is new so far that I've used except for the carboy, stopper and airlock which are still old equipment from the first two batches. I'm going to use the old equipment for the rest of the process and see if it is an equipment issue
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Since it sounds like you had an infection with your first batch, do NOT use any of that hardware without either bleach bombing it, or replacing it. Otherwise, your new batch will follow the same path as the others. A sour/acidic taste after 4-5 weeks is either infection or serious over-carbonation. If it's not bottled yet, then it's most likely also infected.

You have to decide, do you want to continue to make beers you cannot drink (wasting money) or nut-up and replace the hardware that's been compromised? IMO, the cheaper/better/more certain way is to replace the hardware.
 
So how do I know which is compromised? Should I just replace every plastic piece as well as hoses? I just got a brand new stainless brew kettle, which is one of the things I won't replace
 
schwibbidy said:
So how do I know which is compromised? Should I just replace every plastic piece as well as hoses? I just got a brand new stainless brew kettle, which is one of the things I won't replace
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Anything post boil, in plastic, would be suspect IMO. This includes hoses, fermenting vessels, bottling buckets, autosiphon/racking canes, etc. Unless you KNOW at what step the batch was infected, you can't trust any of it. So, either bleach bomb everything or replace it all.

I hate the smell of bleach to the extent that I would simply toss it all and get new. Luckily, the amount of plastics I use for my batches is extremely low. The majority is either stainless or silicone. So I can use heat/steam to sterilize things, if I ever needed to. Although I would probably only do that with the fermenting vessels and just toss out the rest. Cheap enough to replace some tubing (~2') and even a pair of QD's.
 
There is another option for hdpe plastic parts and vinyl hose. HDPE buckets can withstand boiling water, so fill it with boiling water, put the lid on, and let it cool before moving it or dumping it. It will melt an autosiphon though...I've since incorporated a bleach bomb into my plastics every few batches, but will sanitize plastics again with boiling water if I ever have another infection.
 
seabass07 said:
There is another option for hdpe plastic parts and vinyl hose. HDPE buckets can withstand boiling water, so fill it with boiling water, put the lid on, and let it cool before moving it or dumping it. It will melt an autosiphon though...I've since incorporated a bleach bomb into my plastics every few batches, but will sanitize plastics again with boiling water if I ever have another infection.
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IMO, bleach bombing every few batches is ridiculous. If you're that paranoid of infection, there are better options. There are some things that will survive pouring boiling hot water into the bucket. For one thing, unless you actually fill the bucket with water from a HARD boil, and it's warm enough where you are to keep it there for at least several minutes, you're not doing that much. It won't do any better than using Star San. Plus, having that much boiling hot water right there is a bit dangerous.

For my fermenting vessels, I could simply put some water into them, cap and fit the gas post (I use adapted sanke kegs) with a relief valve assembly (with a pressure set release) and boil at a higher pressure (think, 7.75 gallon or 50L pressure cooker) and kill anything that could be in there. 10-15 minutes there should be enough, but I could also go for a 30 minute pressure cook. Thankfully, I've not had a single infection to date. BUT, I wouldn't have any issue sterilizing my fermenting vessels and tossing out any plastics that came into contact with the batch. I'd probably either toss any silicone hoses out (I have a good amount of 'spare' on hand) or include them into the keg boil.
 
Get a wallpaper tray from home depot and bleach the longer equiptment such as racking canes/autosiphon in that. aswell as bleach your primary bucket, pay attention to scratches in the bucket. It should be smooth and you should NEVER use any brushes or abrasives to clean the walls. I will use warm water and a rag to remove any gunk! then add cleaner to the bucket and let it soak for atleast 1.5 hours. rinse well with tap water (5x) then sanitize, it should be ready to use!

Also If your using the bottling bucket for a fermentor The spigot can get dirty and cause an infection, I cleaned the heck outof my bottling bucket, let it dry and 2 days later noticed a build up of crap in the cavity. So either dont use this as a fermentor or remove the spigot each time and clean and sanitise individually.

I purchased a #2 6.5gallon plastic fermentor that was new, but the idiot cramed the lid into the bucket sideways causing it to blemish the sides. They arent deep gouges, but I want perfect! if I would have noticed this I would have passed on the buy.
 
Golddiggie said:
IMO, bleach bombing every few batches is ridiculous. If you're that paranoid of infection, there are better options. There are some things that will survive pouring boiling hot water into the bucket. For one thing, unless you actually fill the bucket with water from a HARD boil, and it's warm enough where you are to keep it there for at least several minutes, you're not doing that much. It won't do any better than using Star San. Plus, having that much boiling hot water right there is a bit dangerous.

For my fermenting vessels, I could simply put some water into them, cap and fit the gas post (I use adapted sanke kegs) with a relief valve assembly (with a pressure set release) and boil at a higher pressure (think, 7.75 gallon or 50L pressure cooker) and kill anything that could be in there. 10-15 minutes there should be enough, but I could also go for a 30 minute pressure cook. Thankfully, I've not had a single infection to date. BUT, I wouldn't have any issue sterilizing my fermenting vessels and tossing out any plastics that came into contact with the batch. I'd probably either toss any silicone hoses out (I have a good amount of 'spare' on hand) or include them into the keg boil.
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I actually used my heat stick to heat up the water in the bucket to a rolling boil. AFAIK, any typical contaminates will not survive a rolling boil. It also sits above pasteurization temp for over half an hour.

As for the bleach bomb thing, I use the bleach to clean my buckets after fermenting, I acidify it with vinegar, so I'm essentially bleach bombing while I'm cleaning it. It's still diluted, but strong enough to clean the buckets well. It's not crazy IMO. I do an oxyclean soak after every batch and every third batch I use bleach instead. It's ridiculously cheap and effective.
 
seabass07 said:
I actually used my heat stick to heat up the water in the bucket to a rolling boil. AFAIK, any typical contaminates will not survive a rolling boil. It also sits above pasteurization temp for over half an hour.

As for the bleach bomb thing, I use the bleach to clean my buckets after fermenting, I acidify it with vinegar, so I'm essentially bleach bombing while I'm cleaning it. It's still diluted, but strong enough to clean the buckets well. It's not crazy IMO. I do an oxyclean soak after every batch and every third batch I use bleach instead. It's ridiculously cheap and effective.
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If that makes you happy... Personally, I cannot stand the smell of chlorine even when in the dilution you would use. You'll not find me using it to clean any of my gear, ever. I also don't use oxy, but PBW since it rinses off insanely fast. IME, far better/faster/easier than oxy will.

To actually sanitize, you need to mirror an autoclave. Otherwise, there's something that could resist the lower temperatures (even 213-214 for a rolling/hard boil). While getting it above the 140 minimum of pasteurization will kill a lot, you're not doing any better than a proper use of Star San will give you. So, IMO, you're doing a lot more work for minimal (if any) benefit (over Star San). :cross:

Personally, I can simply boil under pressure for my fermenting vessels (getting to autoclave levels). IF I ever needed to that is.

If the OP wants to go through all that process, fine. IMO, it will be easier, and cheaper (if he doesn't have a heat stick and such) to simply replace the suspect hardware.
 
The point of heat sanitation vs acid sanitation is the cracks in the plastic. If there is anything hiding in the cracks or scratches, which is the argument for replacing plastics after an infection, boiling water will be effective since the heat will radiate and heat up the plastic. We don't need to sterilize our equipment, just sanitize. Boiling water and starsan will both do that.

BTW, I only used the boiling water after a known infection. It was cheaper and easier than replacing the bucket. I've used the fermenter 15 or so times since then with no issues. I would not regularly do the boiling water thing.
 
seabass07 said:
The point of heat sanitation vs acid sanitation is the cracks in the plastic. If there is anything hiding in the cracks or scratches, which is the argument for replacing plastics after an infection, boiling water will be effective since the heat will radiate and heat up the plastic. We don't need to sterilize our equipment, just sanitize. Boiling water and starsan will both do that.

BTW, I only used the boiling water after a known infection. It was cheaper and easier than replacing the bucket. I've used the fermenter 15 or so times since then with no issues. I would not regularly do the boiling water thing.
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Bleach bombing every 3 batches, IMO, is insane. If you need to do that to avoid infections, then you need to rethink where you're fermenting (or do something about it).

I've been using Star San to sanitize since my second, or third, batch (when I found out about it). Zero infections with it. I simply follow BKM when using it and don't even give it much thought. I sure as hell don't bleach bomb, treat with vinegar after and all that you have to do to remove the chlorine from the items after bleach bombing.
 
I never said I wasn't insanely OCD about brewing. But is it really crazier than running caustic through everything for half an hour after every batch before sanitizing?
 
seabass07 said:
I never said I wasn't insanely OCD about brewing. But is it really crazier than running caustic through everything for half an hour after every batch before sanitizing?
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Never said I use caustic, just a decent Star San use. Its not like I'm running a lye solution through everything. That would be even more insane, and dangerous.
 
My point is that pro brewers run hot caustic through everything for an extended period before a hot then cold water rinse and sanitizing. So what I'm doing is lax in comparison.
 
seabass07 said:
My point is that pro brewers run hot caustic through everything for an extended period before a hot then cold water rinse and sanitizing. So what I'm doing is lax in comparison.
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But compared with other home brewers (more apple to apple comparison) you're beyond OCD. :eek: :D

Think you need to follow some of the RDWHAHB methodologies. :D
 
i would agree that a gouge in a plastic bucket could harbor bad bugs but i claim that all plastic buckets are scratched and it is not a problem if you properly sanitize. i use scrubbies in my buckets and a bottle brush in my better bottles (ALL of which are used for sour beers) and have never had an unintentional sour beer. ever. we all know what causes infections but to say that those infections stem from a particular piece of equipment is kind of a stretch. wild bugs are on our bodies, clothes and mouths but i've not seen anyone suggest sanitizing all of those items any more than the usual. the air is seething with yeast and bacteria but none of us is filtering the air in our brew houses. proper sanitation and a healthy yeast pitch is the best defense against infection.
 
Proper use of Star San will protect your brew from infections. It's really all I've ever done and I've yet to have any kind of infection. Since the OP had one from the start, either he's not using the sanitizer correctly, or where he's brewing/fermenting has a significantly higher concentration of nasties in it.

I recall a thread (not that long ago) where a person had batches get infected when fermented in one house, but not at another (brew buddies). Even using the same gear in the second location didn't infect the batches. It was determined that something where the batches were fermented was the source/cause of the infections. I believe that the basement (where they fermented the issue batches) was at least partially dirt (not a full slab/concrete build). Which could have been the source right there. It's one of the reasons why I'm glad the basement where I live (and ferment in) IS all concrete (no exposed earth).
 
eastoak said:
wild bugs are on our bodies, clothes and mouths but i've not seen anyone suggest sanitizing all of those items any more than the usual.
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You havent seen the TakeSomeAdvice videos, have you? lol
 

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