Apple Wine & Apple Jack

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Brewho

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So Fall is here and the apples are ripe. My girlfriends aunt has an apple farm and an apple press. so we decided to go up there and fill up a carboy. I was gonna make plain old hard cider but i heard somewhere about apple jack and decided to give it a try. So to make the apple wine i used about 4 gallons of that super sweet and fresh homemade cider. Then i added about 4 and a half cups of raw sugar from whole foods. For the yeast im using champagne yeast. and i probably gonna let it ferment and age for about 3 weeks, at which point i will bottle some and put the rest outside in upside down plastic gallon jugs, in order to make the apple jack. What do you guys think?

Also its been a little more that 24 hours and bubbling is sparse. There is a pretty thick layer at the bottum that i cant tell if its sugar or yeast. I just poured the sugar in. should i have boiled it down into a syrup before adding it, or is it fine to just pour in regular course sugar. I just hoping the layer at the bottum isnt all sugar.

what are your thoughts comments suggestions?

Thaanks
 
oh i forgot i dumped some cinnamon (about 1 tbsp or two) and a little lemon juice in. Also 2 teaspoons of pectic enzyme and t teaspoons of yeast nutrient. decided to skip on the campden tablets
 
Brewho said:
So Fall is here and the apples are ripe. My girlfriends aunt has an apple farm and an apple press. so we decided to go up there and fill up a carboy. I was gonna make plain old hard cider but i heard somewhere about apple jack and decided to give it a try. So to make the apple wine i used about 4 gallons of that super sweet and fresh homemade cider. Then i added about 4 and a half cups of raw sugar from whole foods. For the yeast im using champagne yeast. and i probably gonna let it ferment and age for about 3 weeks, at which point i will bottle some and put the rest outside in upside down plastic gallon jugs, in order to make the apple jack. What do you guys think?

Also its been a little more that 24 hours and bubbling is sparse. There is a pretty thick layer at the bottum that i cant tell if its sugar or yeast. I just poured the sugar in. should i have boiled it down into a syrup before adding it, or is it fine to just pour in regular course sugar. I just hoping the layer at the bottum isnt all sugar.

what are your thoughts comments suggestions?

Thaanks
Click to expand...

Did you dissolve the yeast in warm water or anything before adding?

I'm just getting started myself with cider. I'm also using Champagne yeast, but my recipe had called for allot more sugar, which I found out too late was quite a bit.

I started the yeast by putting it into a cup or so of luke warm water and added sugar then stired. I let it go until it had a froth on it, then added that to the cider mixture in my carboy. I then shook it up pretty vigorously and installed the airlock.

After about 8 hours it was bubbling pretty well (about 1 large bubble every 2 sec). After one day it was really going, with a large bubble or 2 every second. Quite aggressively fermenting now after 3 days...kinda sounds like rice crispys. I'm told its aggressive as I had a large level of sugar in it.

It might make sense to agitate it now as it is probably all of the sugar on the bottom.
 
I think that putting the sugars in, in granule form, is actually beneficial to the process. Basically you end up with a lower gravity through the duration of the ferment, but as the sugars are eaten, more are dissolved. At least that's my theory. After a few days all of the dextrose was fully dissipated.
 
do you speak from experience hex? I was planning on following rukus' advice and shaking it up a good bit, any other opinions?
 
I just started an apfelwein last saturday according to the "official" apfelwein thread. I shook the dextrose in the half empty gallon jugs and when all was said and done a lot settled to the bottom of the better bottle. In less than a week it had all been eaten though.

I'd be afraid of oxidation from shaking, but if you had a way to stir it without any extra O2 getting in there, I doubt it would hurt. My theory on the sugars dissipating is from my small bit of gastronomy experience (2lbs of dextrose in 5 gallons of apple juice would be above room temperature dissolving ratios, but as that sugar is converted to alcohol you'll have more capacity for the rest to disolve), but I don't know how having the "raw" sugars at the bottom might effect the yeasts health (mine seem healthy though).
 
so how long do you guys think i should let it ferment and sit. should i bottle right after it stops bubbling, should i wait a week. Should i carbonate some of it? any thoughts ideas?
 
oh and im turning at least half of it into apple jack hopefully. so i wont bother bottling or carbonating that. any tips on that process?
 
Brewho said:
oh and im turning at least half of it into apple jack hopefully. so i wont bother bottling or carbonating that. any tips on that process?
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Im going to do this as well. The alaskan bootleggers bible says 8lb apples, 1 gal apple juice, 4lb sugar (cane or brown) 1 gal water, and 1 packet champagne yeast.... im going the easy route. 1 gallon water, 1gallon cider(no preservatives) and 4lb brown sugar. Im going to boil my water, turn off the heat, add the brown sugar, cool to about 80degF transfer that to my 3gal carboy with my cider. Ferment, rack till its clear and then put it in juggs in my freezer. What you want to do is freeze it, separate the solids and refreeze, separate the solids, and then refreeze. keep doing this till it no longer freezes.
 
be careful of fusel concentrations. The manner you describe making the high octane hooch will lead to high concentrations of fusel alc and also... lead to blindness. This is why this method isn't used anymore. You can't separate out the good from the bad, so you get concentrated bad with your concentrated good. I wouldn't recc this, or drink much of it.
 
well about the fusels,you are just concentrating the alcohol not making more of it,so if you drink the same amount of alcohol as you would from wine you should be ok.
Plus a few months ago me and my friend drank a bottle of his Apple Jack(about 25-30%ABV) and we just got drunk,really drunk but nothing else.
I guess you also have to be careful not to have any fusels in there in the first place,like fermenting at a lower temp.

P.S. I just found a copy of the The Alaskan Bootleggers Bible to download(thank you internet) thanks for mentioning it cuz it's the best homebrewing book I've found so far.
 
CidahMastah said:
be careful of fusel concentrations. The manner you describe making the high octane hooch will lead to high concentrations of fusel alc and also... lead to blindness. This is why this method isn't used anymore. You can't separate out the good from the bad, so you get concentrated bad with your concentrated good. I wouldn't recc this, or drink much of it.
Click to expand...

Im not worried. Assuming I didnt fractional freeze it to separate out the alc, it would still be apple wine and the same amount of fusel concentrations would be there along with alcohol. Its fermenting at around 65-70 deg so like i said if i dont freeze it it'll be apple wine or hard cider still around 18% alcohol.
 
"it would still be apple wine and the same amount of fusel concentrations would be there along with alcohol."
This is faulty logic.

Would you ever drink 5 gallons of wine at once? Well guess what when you remove all that ice that is the water, thus, concentrating the alc and the fusel alc making it potentially dangerous because you consume more in one sitting.

Another example for you.... is aspirin safe to take every day? Sure. But is it safe to take 365 aspirin at once? Hey why not, you were gonna take them daily for a year anyway? See where your logic falls flat?

Freeze distillation is not safe. Commercial distillers use fractional heat distillation.

ever hear of jake leg?

http://www.ibiblio.org/moonshine/drink/jake.html

Check out the most basic of sources (wikipedia), or read the compleat distiller.

"Fractional freezing can be used as a simple method to increase the alcohol concentration in fermented alcoholic beverages, a process sometimes called freeze distillation. Examples are applejack, made from hard cider, and ice beer. Freeze distillation of alcoholic beverages is illegal in many countries, as it can concentrate poisonous compounds, for example fusel alcohols, in the original fermented beverage to unhealthy levels; heated distillation methods tend to eliminate these more harmful fermentation products. In practice, while not able to produce an alcohol concentration comparable to distillation, this technique can achieve some concentration with far less effort than any practical distillation apparatus would require."

Believe it or not, this is illegal so stupid people don't harm themselves or others with their tainted hooch.


g' head, drink up.
 
chill man all I was saying is that if you know how to make a good wine you wont have a lot of fusels to begin with and if you double the alcohol from 15 to 30%ABV you should be ok.
And for the legal matter what I do with my wine and my freezer is my own Goddamn business and I believe this has been covered in previous posts and is not illegal...if I'm wrong please show me a link to a government site stating so (STAY OUT OF MY FREEZER FBI):
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/freeze-distillation-104882/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/applejack-attack-210972/

P.S. oh and that jake leg thing is a bunch of bull, in the 1930s during prohibition moonshiners made a lot of cheap booze to sell cuz it was illeagal to buy it anywhere else(thats what happens if you make alcohol illegal) and they probably didn't even bother to separate the heads and tails from the hearts,with just a little bit of basic knowledge all is fine,I also recommend The Compleat Distiller.
 
hey if you understand the risks and want to take them that is your call. It is illegal in the U.S. (any distillation of alcohol) - go ask cop, a judge or get a lawyer to cite you the statute. I am not doing this at home, so I don't need the statute. Ignorance is not an excuse under the eyes of the law.

My point is, it is your risk, and you should not subject others to it or speak as if what you are saying is truth when it is in fact assumption. Some people may read this and try it not understanding the risks.

All that said, if/when the laws change, I will probably be one of the first to buy a still and try it out. But until the law changes, I will have no part in it. It is a felony violation.
 
I don't know about applejack ,all I had is Ice Beer and I always thought it was pretty safe,oh and legal because what happens if someone forgets his cider outside to long during the winter to cold crash it and being impatient drinks some,is he busted?
oh and Heiney where can I get The Alaskan Bootleggers Bible or The Compleat Distiller?
 
just search "homebrew books" on thepiratebay there is a whole collection of useful books, I also recommend The Complete Joy of Home Brewing by Charles Papazian.
 
Heineken_Draught said:
P.S. oh and that jake leg thing is a bunch of bull, in the 1930s during prohibition moonshiners made a lot of cheap booze to sell cuz it was illeagal to buy it anywhere else(thats what happens if you make alcohol illegal) and they probably didn't even bother to separate the heads and tails from the hearts,with just a little bit of basic knowledge all is fine,I also recommend The Compleat Distiller.
Click to expand...


Listen guys I hear ya. But you have to remember - there are stupid people everywhere. I agree it can be safely done, with proper precautions. But many people read it on a forum and don't do the leg work (like it sounds like you have started to do).

I am happy you have touched a few good books - if you are gonna do it, you are gonna share with friends. So at least you will have hedged a good bet that know one will be harmed by it.

In the case of Jake leg - I agree with why it happened (bad brewing conditions/ no separation of runs). But even with any distillation by freezing, you aren't separating your foreshots, heads, tails etc. So you run similar risks if you drink this stuff all the time.
 
Brew_Master said:
I don't know about applejack ,all I had is Ice Beer and I always thought it was pretty safe,oh and legal because what happens if someone forgets his cider outside to long during the winter to cold crash it and being impatient drinks some,is he busted?
oh and Heiney where can I get The Alaskan Bootleggers Bible or The Compleat Distiller?
Click to expand...

Exactly! Ice House, or Bud Ice are both done with fractional freezing as a part of the process. That is sold commercially, so it cant be that bad. That and apple jack is as american as baseball. its been done for years and if it was really THAT dangerous to consume then any moral author of any recipe book would put in something that states such dangers. Plus is this topic really anything to get your panties all in a bunch about?
 
Cidah mastah... love ur input but gotta ask?? Ever crank through a rocks glass of johnny walker blue? Or glenn fiord highland scotch? Some people like the grimace the character and warmth that goes with a sip of something that equals eight times the strength of our raw product.

Now about the fusel alcohols I am finding all these claims on here extremely circumstantial. I would love to see something more detailed and perhaps peer reviewed about the life cycle and effects of the derivative. Some places say it just causes hangovers and some say it causes blindness. Confused. ABSOLUTELY LOVE the idea that freeze concentrating also concentrates the flavors present as opposed the the illegal distillation.
 
about the blindness issue, methanol which is a lighter alcohol than ethanol causes blindness and I also thought that fusels are is such a small concentration that all they ever cause is a bad hangover(nasty throbbing headache)
 
Check out Annie Proulx and Ben Watson. They get rather detailed about this process, and its' dangers. This is considered "fractal distillation" and IS illegal in the U.S. Remember this, ever hear the term "Scrumpy"? Well, this term is an old appellation for cider before people knew about nutrients needed for proper fermentation, so when their fermentation stuck they would add a piece of beef or mutton to their cider barrel. This did act as a nitrogen source to complete fermentation, but I understand the results were vile.
 
Yup methanol is bad news but chemically its not even close to the fusel bi product so im wondering where this blndness claim is.coming from.
 
To settle this legal thing, i contacted the ATF here in Denver, and they said something like this "People call us all the time and ask us this. It has never been decided in a court of law whether this process is, in fact, distilling. There is no precedent for homebrewers in Denver as to whether a case has been tried. However, it is very unlikely that Denver has the resources to peruse criminal charges on a case that would probably be ruled legitimate homebrewing by the judge. I would suggest to you that it is, in fact, probably legal, because there has been no precedent set against it. We've been making a distinction to our agents and telling them freeze concentration is legal."
so don't worry,be happy,have a home icebeer:mug:
 
or a home AppleJack:tank::rockin:
P.S. I hate how the legal dispute gets brought up every time this comes up. If it were illegal, it would be pretty hard to bust. You could just say you accidentally forgot to put the temp controller back on the freezer. Plenty of people use chest freezers as kegerators.
 
Brew_Master said:
To settle this legal thing, i contacted the ATF here in Denver, and they said something like this "People call us all the time and ask us this. It has never been decided in a court of law whether this process is, in fact, distilling. There is no precedent for homebrewers in Denver as to whether a case has been tried. However, it is very unlikely that Denver has the resources to peruse criminal charges on a case that would probably be ruled legitimate homebrewing by the judge. I would suggest to you that it is, in fact, probably legal, because there has been no precedent set against it. We've been making a distinction to our agents and telling them freeze concentration is legal."
so don't worry,be happy,have a home icebeer:mug:
Click to expand...


awesome!
 
Brew_Master said:
There is no precedent for homebrewers......
Click to expand...

Actually, the ATF has said many times that freeze distillation is fine AS LONG AS THE final ABV does not exceed the maximum level you might expect to get from yeast.

The ATF says that maximum level is 24% abv.

What this means, specifically, is they do not care if you freeze-distilled hard cider into 24% abv Applejack, or just used wine yeast to also achieve the same ABV.

The home-brew laws were written as such that you can use any method to reach that 24%. Above that and you are not making beer/wine (according to the government).
 
no precedent means nobody has ever been arrested for having ice beer or applejack no matter the ABV, plus
MedsenFey said:
Freeze concentration at home is not prohibited for beer or winemaking. With beer there is no legal limit to the ABV, as there is not point at which a beer is not considered to "beer."
Click to expand...
what if i mix some beer & strong spirit(store bought) to get a 40%ABV ice beer, because its over 24% is the ATF gonna say its not beer?
or what if I have a super mutant yeast that can ferment to 25%, if they say thats not beer then the ATF and the government can kiss my ass.
The point is that there is a law prohibiting distilling spirits without a license, so if you are not using a still to separate the alcohol vapors your applejack or icebeer is legal.
 
becon776 said:
Cidah mastah... love ur input but gotta ask?? Ever crank through a rocks glass of johnny walker blue? Or glenn fiord highland scotch? Some people like the grimace the character and warmth that goes with a sip of something that equals eight times the strength of our raw product.

Now about the fusel alcohols I am finding all these claims on here extremely circumstantial. I would love to see something more detailed and perhaps peer reviewed about the life cycle and effects of the derivative. Some places say it just causes hangovers and some say it causes blindness. Confused. ABSOLUTELY LOVE the idea that freeze concentrating also concentrates the flavors present as opposed the the illegal distillation.
Click to expand...

I drink my scotch and whiskey neat. Like I said, if it were legal I would have a still. My favorite whiskey is Eagle rare 10 year old 46.5% - love the stuff.

This is in response to the general not you becon,

If you want to do this stuff go ahead and do it, but parading around on a forum is a stupid way to advertise your motives, IMO.
 
Rockape66 said:
Check out Annie Proulx and Ben Watson. They get rather detailed about this process, and its' dangers. This is considered "fractal distillation" and IS illegal in the U.S. Remember this, ever hear the term "Scrumpy"? Well, this term is an old appellation for cider before people knew about nutrients needed for proper fermentation, so when their fermentation stuck they would add a piece of beef or mutton to their cider barrel. This did act as a nitrogen source to complete fermentation, but I understand the results were vile.
Click to expand...

Precisely - for all the people who don't think there are risks - you are only kidding yourself.


g 'head and brew it drink some if you want - just don't preach its safety when you don't know it for fact!
 
Brew_Master said:
To settle this legal thing, i contacted the ATF here in Denver, and they said something like this "People call us all the time and ask us this. It has never been decided in a court of law whether this process is, in fact, distilling. There is no precedent for homebrewers in Denver as to whether a case has been tried. However, it is very unlikely that Denver has the resources to peruse criminal charges on a case that would probably be ruled legitimate homebrewing by the judge. I would suggest to you that it is, in fact, probably legal, because there has been no precedent set against it. We've been making a distinction to our agents and telling them freeze concentration is legal."
so don't worry,be happy,have a home icebeer:mug:
Click to expand...

Too bad Denver is a STATE government. FEDERAL government presides, thus..... felony


If you guys would read how the process works.... Freeze distillation used for brewing ice beer happens.... (wait for it).... BEFORE the fermentation. This prevents any issues with concentrated methanol and other nasties. It just makes a stronger beer like if you were to add more dme to an extract home brew. You remove the water before fermentation thus concentrating the sugar = more alcohol.

Point is, you run into potential troubles with you remove water after the fact.

Like I said, all you guys are so sure that you are right, go ahead and do it. Just don't act like there aren't risks. You don't understand the process, and you pretend you do.

See if I was making it I wouldn't be worried. I would do the research and take the care to perfect a product that is not only safe, but like a Johnny wlker blue, something special and delicious. Some guys seem to be coming onto the forum with a frat guy mentality - "dude, I tried it once it is safe, trust me bro - let's get really drunk". That just sounds like darwinism in process to me - ha
 
CidahMastah said:
If you guys would read how the process works.... Freeze distillation used for brewing ice beer happens.... (wait for it).... BEFORE the fermentation. This prevents any issues with concentrated methanol and other nasties. It just makes a stronger beer like if you were to add more dme to an extract home brew. You remove the water before fermentation thus concentrating the sugar = more alcohol.

Like I said, all you guys are so sure that you are right, go ahead and do it. Just don't act like there aren't risks. You don't understand the process, and you pretend you do.
Click to expand...
Like you're some sort of biochemist and know every thing there is to know about fermentation when you make beer or wine,I never pretended to be an expert but you don't have to fully understand the process to do it.
And actually according to wikipedia(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_beer)
"The process of "icing" beer involves lowering the temperature of a batch of beer until ice crystals form. Since alcohol has a lower freezing point than water and doesn't form crystals, when the ice is filtered off, the alcohol concentration increases. The process is known as "fractional freezing"."
just look at eisbock(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisbock#Eisbock) it "ranges from 9% to 43% by volume" so I don't think it's frozen before fermentation.

CidahMastah said:
See if I was making it I wouldn't be worried. I would do the research and take the care to perfect a product that is not only safe, but like a Johnny wlker blue, something special and delicious. Some guys seem to be coming onto the forum with a frat guy mentality - "dude, I tried it once it is safe, trust me bro - let's get really drunk". That just sounds like darwinism in process to me - ha
Click to expand...
oh so now you're saying that you wouldn't be worried if you made it but the rest of us are idiots and cant, like I said I never claimed to be an expert and I even recommended books like The Alaskan Bootleggers Bible and The Compleat Distiller, I started to read the e-books Brew_Master provided and they are great
Brew_Master said:
thanks but I already found a bunch of e-books here:
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/6133827/Homebrew_Beer_Wine__amp__Spirit_Distillation_Books
I recommend the Sony PRS-505 and you will never read a regular book again. I love being able to carry around a complete library in my pocket. The e-ink technology is amazing, such high resolution that you can't hardly tell that the font is digital.
sorry for the :off:
Click to expand...
 
oh an about "Too bad Denver is a STATE government. FEDERAL government presides, thus..... felony" until I hear about the ATF busting someone for brewing applejack or ice beer I'll consider it legal like so many do,no still no conviction, after all this isn't 100 proof moonshine it's just good all american applejack.
 
hey guys calm down, its no use arguing over something so trivial,some people say it's ok some say it's not, in the end one group can't force the way they think on the other.
plus the local authorities told me they wont bother to peruse criminal charges on a case like that and thats all I need to know so so don't worry,be happy,have a homebrew:mug:
 
You kill me heini haha - just go do it if you are so sure. Why does my opinion matter?

I never said I understood it on the level of a biochemist, but you have even less an idea than me. I can tell because you think you are bullet proof. You "think" it works like this or that. Classic example of someone starting a hobby and thinking they know it all with zero experience doing it.

Here you are all getting hot tempered... chill out.

I never called any of you idiots - I simply asked you to not act as an authority on a matter you clearly don't understand, thus giving others bad ideas who may not be as careful or thoughtful as they should.

be as irresponsible as you like, just don't drag others into it. Go forth an conquer sir.
 

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