Double/Imperial Hefeweizen?

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Displaced MassHole

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Anyone know of a good double/imperial hefe recipe? One of the guys at work was asking if I could make one for him but I cant really find a recipe anywhere. Normally I'd just come up with something on my own but I dont want to chance a crappy batch of beer with all the extra grain that goes into a double.
 
That's because there's no such style as "imperial hefeweizen". The style you're looking for is "Weizenbock".

Give that a shot in Search; I think you'll be more successful. ;)

Prost!

Bob
 
That's because there's no such style as "imperial hefeweizen". The style you're looking for is "Weizenbock".

Give that a shot in Search; I think you'll be more successful. ;)

Prost!

Bob

A Weizenbock is not like a Hefe at all.

Imperial Hefeweizen Ale - Pyramid Breweries, Inc. - Beer Advocate
http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/3818/32926

And who says you need to brew a style? Be creative...be inventive, you're a homebrewer.

EDIT: Sorry I can't help with the style, Hefe's aren't my thing. But I think it would be pretty easy to just up the grainbill to get in the 1.070-1.080 range with a 60/40 wheat/pils blend. Stick with a Hallertauer or something for bittering keeping the same OG:BU ratio as a normal hefe and ferment with good 'ole WY3068
 
Yeah the weizenbocks are a pretty dark beer not resembling a hefeweizen at all. I've been searching the internet all day and haven't found a thing.
 
They don't need to be dark at all. it's a broad style. I have had a few pale/white ones from Germany.
 
Um, what?

There are dozens more BA-listed beers if you search "Weizenbock" which have descriptors in color and flavor that are simply bigger, badder hefeweizen. Conversely, there are two beers listed as "Imperial Hefeweizen" - the one you listed and the one from Big Rock brewpub. Thus we can dismiss that use of the "style" descriptor as marketing a trendy name amongst beer enthusiasts.

Victory's Moonglow, Ramstein's Winter Wheat and Schneider's Aventinus are all pale Weizenbocks.

Seems to me a Weizenbock, according to the commercial benchmarks, is exactly like a Hefeweizen, 'cept bigger.

Of course, I argue from the perspective of being sick unto a shuddering, raspy death of everything that's a "bigger, faster, louder MORE" version of an accepted style being labeled "Imperial". I think calling a stupidly large flavorbomb of a hoppy beer an "Imperial Imperial Pale Ale" as dumb as saying "VIN number". In this case, calling it "Imperial Hefeweizen" is dumb, because you can call it "Weizenbock." ;)

Cheers,

Bob

EDITED TO ADD:
I think calling a stupidly large flavorbomb of a hoppy beer an "Imperial Imperial Pale Ale" as dumb as saying "VIN number".
I was taking my evening constitutional with my wife after typing this, and I realized as I told her the story how stupid this statement was. "Imperial India Pale Ale" isn't such a stupid thing to say, and I'll pretend I didn't say the bit vehicle identification number. ;)

"Imperial Stout" makes sense, as that style of strong stout was brewed for the Tsar's Imperial court in the 19th century. In fact, IIRC, the original bottled brand had "Imperial" on the label.

"Imperial India Pale Ale" makes a certain amount of sense, because India was part of the British Empire.

"Imperial Witbier" makes me want to hurl, because Belgium didn't even have an empire, unless you count the three weeks they held the Congo.

Calling a big beer "Imperial" is trendy. That's what makes me itch. Call it a "Double" or something, like "Doppelbock". "Dobbel Wit" is clever and impressively Fleming; "Imperial Wit" is trendy and buzz-word.
 
They don't need to be dark at all.
Yup. Here's a good one:
vitus.JPG
 
15A. Weizen/Weissbier

Aroma: Moderate to strong phenols (usually clove) and fruity esters (usually banana). The balance and intensity of the phenol and ester components can vary but the best examples are reasonably balanced and fairly prominent. Noble hop character ranges from low to none. A light to moderate wheat aroma (which might be perceived as bready or grainy) may be present but other malt characteristics should not. No diacetyl or DMS. Optional, but acceptable, aromatics can include a light, citrusy tartness, a light to moderate vanilla character, and/or a low bubblegum aroma. None of these optional characteristics should be high or dominant, but often can add to the complexity and balance.

Appearance: Pale straw to very dark gold in color. A very thick, moussy, long-lasting white head is characteristic. The high protein content of wheat impairs clarity in an unfiltered beer, although the level of haze is somewhat variable. A beer “mit hefe” is also cloudy from suspended yeast sediment (which should be roused before drinking). The filtered Krystal version has no yeast and is brilliantly clear.

Flavor: Low to moderately strong banana and clove flavor. The balance and intensity of the phenol and ester components can vary but the best examples are reasonably balanced and fairly prominent. Optionally, a very light to moderate vanilla character and/or low bubblegum notes can accentuate the banana flavor, sweetness and roundness; neither should be dominant if present. The soft, somewhat bready or grainy flavor of wheat is complementary, as is a slightly sweet Pils malt character. Hop flavor is very low to none, and hop bitterness is very low to moderately low. A tart, citrusy character from yeast and high carbonation is often present. Well rounded, flavorful palate with a relatively dry finish. No diacetyl or DMS.

Mouthfeel: Medium-light to medium body; never heavy. Suspended yeast may increase the perception of body. The texture of wheat imparts the sensation of a fluffy, creamy fullness that may progress to a light, spritzy finish aided by high carbonation. Always effervescent.

Overall Impression: A pale, spicy, fruity, refreshing wheat-based ale.


15C. Weizenbock

Aroma: Rich, bock-like melanoidins and bready malt combined with a powerful aroma of dark fruit (plums, prunes, raisins or grapes). Moderate to strong phenols (most commonly vanilla and/or clove) add complexity, and some banana esters may also be present. A moderate aroma of alcohol is common, although never solventy. No hop aroma, diacetyl or DMS.

Appearance: Dark amber to dark, ruby brown in color. A very thick, moussy, long-lasting light tan head is characteristic. The high protein content of wheat impairs clarity in this traditionally unfiltered style, although the level of haze is somewhat variable. The suspended yeast sediment (which should be roused before drinking) also contributes to the cloudiness.

Flavor: A complex marriage of rich, bock-like melanoidins, dark fruit, spicy clove-like phenols, light banana and/or vanilla, and a moderate wheat flavor. The malty, bready flavor of wheat is further enhanced by the copious use of Munich and/or Vienna malts. May have a slightly sweet palate, and a light chocolate character is sometimes found (although a roasted character is inappropriate). A faintly tart character may optionally be present. Hop flavor is absent, and hop bitterness is low. The wheat, malt, and yeast character dominate the palate, and the alcohol helps balance the finish. Well-aged examples may show some sherry-like oxidation as a point of complexity. No diacetyl or DMS.

Mouthfeel: Medium-full to full body. A creamy sensation is typical, as is the warming sensation of substantial alcohol content. The presence of Munich and/or Vienna malts also provide an additional sense of richness and fullness. Moderate to high carbonation. Never hot or solventy.

Overall Impression: A strong, malty, fruity, wheat-based ale combining the best flavors of a dunkelweizen and the rich strength and body of a bock.
 
Try a Wheatwine. I have one posted around here somewhere. Could use a Hefe yeast for the first week or 2 then switch to WLP007. Problem with an Imperial Hefe would be the yeast can't attenuate enough...
 
Well holy **** they are different styles after all;) Now if I could just find a recipe that someone has tried with a little success, this thread might just serve its purpose.:D Thanks all for the insight thus far.
 
Look at my suggestions in the first post - I edited it, so maybe you didn't catch it. That's where I would start. You could also always email pyramid or southern tier or something and see what they have to say.
 
Why wait, I happen to have a bottle of Pyramid Imperial Heff right here. This is right off the back of the bottle:

"Brewed with 60% malted wheat, our Imperial Hefeweizen is a smoth full bodied unfiltered ale with a pleasant hop flavor for a taste thats uniquely refreshing.

Malts: Pale 2 Row barley malt, wheat & munich 20L malt.
Hops: Nugget & Tettnang
ALC/VOL: 7.5% Brew OG:17.2*P
AE:4.4*P IBU: 30
 
Hey, Chef -

Thanks for the copy and paste job. I'm trying to figure out why you didn't bother to include the benchmark styles, though.

Oh, that's right - I already did post a couple of them that had the misfortune to counteract what you were trying to say. I'm not going to prolong the agony by copying the entire list of what I know to be pale weizenbocks. We're both right. You don't need to have a dark beer in order to have Weizenbock, even according to BJCP benchmark standards. You can simply amp up a hefeweizen to beyond the "normal" 12-13*P OG to 17-20. Ever heard of Hellesbock?

There's no reason to perpetuate this stupid slapping of the word "Imperial" on everything. Call it a "Hellesweizenbock" or "Doppelweizen" or something that at least resembles the natural progression of strength in the language of the parent country. But fer crissakes, enough with the "Imperial"; I'm about to start hearing Vader voices. :rolleyes:

Bob
 
I looked up imperial thinking it could be used as a synonym for “big”, but damn, he’s right.

From Wikipedia:
Imperial is a term that is used to describe something that relates to an empire, emperor, or the concept of imperialism.


Edit:
But making an Imperial Hefe sounds like a good idea ;)
 
I'm not trying to make it an issue of stylistic nomenclature.
I'm just saying 2-8 SRM isn't the same as 12-18 SRM or that bananas aren't the same flavor as plums. Or maybe that spicy phenols aren't the same as meladoinins.

Guess they're all just the same to you.
 
No, they're not. I never said that.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm surprised BJCP would list the commercial benchmarks they do when most of those benchmarks don't have the characteristics of their style prose. I've had most of those benchmarks, and they don't evoke what BJCP says a Weizenbock should be. That's where I was coming from when I first posted in this thread: I was advising based on my mental tasting notes of Weizenbocks.

Sorry if my version of reality conflicts with BJCP's! That, my friend, is an issue of stylistic nomenclature. Something needs to change.

Bob
 
I'm a bit ashamed, now, that I've been drooling on about Imperial Porters over in the 10.10.10 discussion thread. I think I'm going to rename them to Double Porters now. Damned Flying Dog, abusing nomenclature like Pyramid did, just to be trendy.
 
Yes, I suppose I must concede now. :)

Per the Brewer's Association Guidelines:

South German-Style Weizenbock/Weissbock
This style can be either pale or dark (golden to dark brown in color) and has a high starting gravity and alcohol content. The malty
sweetness of a Weizenbock is balanced with a clove like phenolic and fruity-estery banana element to produce a well-rounded
aroma and flavor. As is true with all German wheat beers, hop bitterness is low and carbonation is high. Hop flavor and aroma are
absent. It has a medium to full body. If dark, a mild roast malt character should emerge in flavor and to a lesser degree in the aroma.
If this is served with yeast the beer may be appropriately very cloudy. No diacetyl should be perceived. (Brewer may indicate a
desire that the yeast be either poured or not poured when the beer is served)
Original Gravity (ºPlato):
1.066-1.080 (16-19.5 ºPlato)
Apparent Extract/Final Gravity (ºPlato):
1.0016-1.028 (4-7 ºPlato)
Alcohol by Weight (Volume):
5.5-7.5% (6.9-9.3%)
Bitterness (IBU): 15-25
Color SRM (EBC): 5-30 (10-60 EBC)

Completely different than BJCP. The weizenbocks I have personally had have all been dark, with the dark fruit thing and subtle vanilla/chocolate stuff going on with tons of malt. Basically, a double/imperial/whathaveyou dunkelweizen.

Surprised to see the stark contrast between BJCP and BA.
 
Weird. I hadn't looked at the AHA version, either. Like I said, I was just going on experience! ;)

Chriso - I didn't mean to give offense. I'm sure you realize that! I haven't seen that thread, but I wonder if anyone has read this bit from the BJCP entry for Baltic Porter:

May also be described as an Imperial Porter

So you could call it the style it already is - Baltic Porter. I'd feel kind of silly, like I was making up a new name, if I called it "Imperial Porter". But that's probably just me. :)

Bob
 
Oh no, not offended! Just humbled, and feeling a bit silly, that's all! :p

I get frustrated, sometimes, with the seemed gaps that are left between BJCP styles. My favorite example of this is Hobgoblin. It's closest to a weak Old Ale, but it's not one. It's just a dark ale. Where the devil's that supposed to fit in? Anyways. "Double Porter" is now my new favorite term. :p
 
This is what's on the bottle of Imperial Weizen I have from New Glarus Brewery.

"Do not waste time attempting to box this brew into some esoteric guide to styles. This is Dan's bold creation. His passion for unfiltered Weiss collides with Cascade Hops inventing our Imperial Hefe-Weizen. Dry hopping boldly rules over Wisconsin red wheat and our special strain of Bavarian yeast. At almost 20 O.P. this is the super mac daddy of Weiss beers. Decoction mashing was followed by excessive dry hopping to create a fierce onslaught of clove, cinnamon and citrus all in this living beer. Don't bother waiting to enjoy - the time is now."

Not sure if it helps you or not. The beer itself has very tasty and hid it's 9.6% alcohol very well. I've got only one bottle left from the 4 I bought in March and thinking I should drink it soon as hefe's should be drank fairly young.
 
I'd think that the ABV would overrule the rule of thumb! Anything that strong can be laid down for some time.

Sounds like a really good beer! I've never seen it on the shelves around here, alas.

Bob
 
:off: sorry...

New Glarus only sells and distributes within Wisconsin. It's a cryin' shame, but it's their choice - they can barely keep up with WI demand! :)

Their beers are very nice. They do an Unplugged beer 4 times a year that is always top-notch. They also do both a Belgian Red (wheat with cherry) and a Raspberry Tart annually... both are in Belgian corked bottles, and very very good.

They pride themselves on using Wisconsin-grown ingredients. Cherries, malted wheat, honey, etc etc.
 
I made a hefe 3 weeks ago that I spiked with ~1lb orange blossom honey at flameout and it had on OG of 1.068 and came down to 1.011 for an ABV of 7.8%. I guess this is gonna be an imperial. Smells fantastic but I just put it on gas so I'll be waiting awhile but I'm a patient man.
 
Brew a regular Hefe and tell the guy to drink twice as much!


The entire Imperial/double thing irks me as well. Same as pizza with double/extra cheese, which usually covers up the fact that the crust sucks/tasteless.
 
at what point is the Imperial Hefe-Weizen a Bavarian Wheat Wine?

p.s. aren't weizenbocks fermented in lager temperatures where a hefe is brewed ideally around 70F or so?
 
Right you are rmolledo! Traditionally bocks are lagers brewed with lager yeast and Hefe's are ales, brewed with ale yeast. Strong bocks brewed with wheat and strong hefe's (whatever you decide to call them both) are certainly very different beers. As such, if you want to brew a big hefe, I would recomend using an ale yeast to obtain a profile similar to it's milder counterpart.
 
Personally, I would make a 1065-1070 beer that is 60/40 Wheat/Pils, bittering addition only of a noble hop, mash at 152, and use a hefe yeast. Ferment low (around 62-64), then ramp it up slowly to 68.

It will be a much bigger beer than a hefe and could be quite tasty.

Eric
 
Most hefe yeast does not attenuate well so I would probably aim for a lower mash temp to help make sure the beer terminates in the mid teens rather than the 1.020's. Vitus, Aventinus and Great Lake's Glockenspiel all have a FG of 1.016 or below
 
"Imperial Witbier" makes me want to hurl, because Belgium didn't even have an empire, unless you count the three weeks they held the Congo.

Old thread yeah, but I was googling imperial here's and this came up and, as a history teacher, I couldn't let this go.
A: Belgium held more than the Congo.
B: 3 days? Seriously? It was about a century of brutal oppression.
Please don't make up crap about history to make a point. (Esp. If your point is as silly as yours, you also don't seem to understand how language and labels evolve. Many things in English move beyond their original literal meanings.)

That is all :)
 
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