Need advice on a starter for old yeast

I have a vial of WLP037 (Yorkshire Square) yeast that is about three weeks from expiring (according to the "best buy" date on the label).

Obviously, I'll be making a starter. I do not yet have a stirplate, but I've had some great results to date with shaken starters... though they admittedly began with more cells than I will have in this one.

What's the best strategy for me? Make a big starter from the get go? Begin with a small (say, 1 liter) starter, then decant and step it up?

If stepped up, how big should I go? I know this is a noob question, but I've never done a step up before.

Thanks for the advice!

I think you are fine. I recently used almost a 1yr old vial and only used a 1L starter...turned out great.

Use a yeast calculator to determine step sizes so you aren't just wasting materials. My understanding is you get decreasing gains from going larger if you have a low inoculation rate. So if you have small number of cells (maybe only 20billion or so) it may only be worth starting with 0.75-1L for the first step and larger for the second.

I like yeastcalc.com, but that's just me. There are others you can find with a quick search.

freisste said:

Use a yeast calculator to determine step sizes so you aren't just wasting materials. My understanding is you get decreasing gains from going larger if you have a low inoculation rate. So if you have small number of cells (maybe only 20billion or so) it may only be worth starting with 0.75-1L for the first step and larger for the second.

I like yeastcalc.com, but that's just me. There are others you can find with a quick search.

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I frequently check Mr. Malty to get my final size, but my issue is simply that I'm ignorant of the step up process. I know, stupidly noobish.

homebrewdad said:

I frequently check Mr. Malty to get my final size, but my issue is simply that I'm ignorant of the step up process. I know, stupidly noobish.

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Not at all.

Make a starter as usual.

Make sure it is done fermenting.

Put it in a fridge for 24 hours (overnight min).

Decant liquid off, leaving yeast (its easy to see because the beer will look like beer and the yeast like yeast. If you use a clear container, you won't be confused.

Make a new starter as usual.

Pitch what is left of the first starter into the second.

Repeat as necessary to get to your final cell count

Pitch final starter into wort.

freisste said:

Not at all.

Make a starter as usual.

Make sure it is done fermenting.

Put it in a fridge for 24 hours (overnight min).

Decant liquid off, leaving yeast (its easy to see because the beer will look like beer and the yeast like yeast. If you use a clear container, you won't be confused.

Make a new starter as usual.

Pitch what is left of the first starter into the second.

Repeat as necessary to get to your final cell count

Pitch final starter into wort.

Click to expand...

Stepping up to larger sizes each time, right? How large should the steps be?

Thanks.

That's where you need a calculator. I would use trial and error until I minimized the number of steps required to get to the cell count required for the beer. Shoot for 2, but you may need 3 steps. Obviously keep in mind that you don't want to plan for a 3L starter if you only have a 2L container.

freisste said:

That's where you need a calculator. I would use trial and error until I minimized the number of steps required to get to the cell count required for the beer. Shoot for 2, but you may need 3 steps. Obviously keep in mind that you don't want to plan for a 3L starter if you only have a 2L container.

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Gotcha. I have a gallon container, so that'll be fine.

Okay, so Mr. Malty says that with intermittent shaking, I would need a 1.45 liter starter... if I had two vials of yeast. I don't, and seeing as how this is a Platinum (limited edition) yeast, I won't be getting another one.

Using one vial kicks me up to needing a 3.59 liter starter.

So... let's say I do a 1 liter starter today, let it finish, decant it. How do I determine the needed size of the next starter step?

I'm obviously missing something simple.

I don't know about mr. Malty, but on yeastcalc.com, it lets you choose the size of each step and the result of the previous step is automatically input. It also (as does mr malty) estimate viability of the yeast based on date.

freisste said:

I don't know about mr. Malty, but on yeastcalc.com, it lets you choose the size of each step and the result of the previous step is automatically input. It also (as does mr malty) estimate viability of the yeast based on date.

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Thanks. That was very helpful.

I also used an excel calculator that a member had posted here.

Yeastcalc shows a LOT more viable cells than Mr. Malty does, and suggests that my steps will need to be smaller than those given in the excel sheet. I'm thinking of going with a 1.5 liter followed bya 2.5 liter... just to be sure. Depending on the calculations I use, that shows me with ~200 - ~300 billion cells, and I should only need around ~181 billion.

Hmm. I wonder where the discrepancies come from. I was a little encouraged by yeastcalc's somewhat scientific experiments where they basically showed that their calculator was pretty accurate. That's why I use it (along with it being easy and intuitive - at least to me). I'm sure they are all pretty good; I don't want to suggest it is better than any other. Still wondering about the discrepancy, though...

I think Mr. Maltys viability is way off. I had an 8 month old wyeast 3726 farmhouse pc. I smacked and it swelled very tight in just 2 hours. Mr malty said 0% viable.

I have been using yeastcalc.com since i needed a stepped starter my first time. So far its been great as far as I can tell. I since got a 2 ltr flask and haven't needed more than a 1.6ltr starter

grem135 said:

I have been using yeastcalc.com since i needed a stepped starter my first time. So far its been great as far as I can tell. I since got a 2 ltr flask and haven't needed more than a 1.6ltr starter

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My next purchases are going to be parts for a DIY stirplate and a 2liter flask!

And again, I have no vested interest in yeastcalc over mr malty, I just personally prefer it. Everyone should certainly use whatever works for them. Including probably a hundred other calculators (yeastcalc and mr malty just seem to be the most popular, based on how often I see one, the other, or both mentioned on starter threads).

take a look at stirstarter.com Great price on stir plates and accessories.
I built my stir plate mostly from parts I had laying around but I wanted a professional looking product and bought a box, rheostat, switch and plug to fit my AC adapter from radio shack costing me $25 total and still had to buy a stirbar. Was fun to build though.

I'll definitely be building a stirplate. I'm an IT guy, so I have access to PLENTY of old computer fans and hard drive magnets.

Made a 1.5 liter starter last night, it took off beautifully - really nice krausen layer. I've been shaking the fool out of it all day.

Will probably chill it tomorrow and leave it for a full day. Decant, start over.

Thanks for all of the input on what was really a very simple question.

Use one of your quietest fans because it can get loud if you don't. You can hardly hear mine at all.
I'm not IT but you wouldnt know it to see my basement. My stir plate sits between my PC workbench and home server.

homebrewdad said:

Thanks for all of the input on what was really a very simple question.

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Simple in HINDSIGHT. That means you learned something which is why we are all here.

A lot of what seems really complicated is actually pretty simple in the end. That's why you should never hesitate to ask questions.

freisste said:

Simple in HINDSIGHT. That means you learned something which is why we are all here.

A lot of what seems really complicated is actually pretty simple in the end. That's why you should never hesitate to ask questions.

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True... that's why I love this community.

Thanks again.

grem135 said:

take a look at stirstarter.com Great price on stir plates and accessories.
I built my stir plate mostly from parts I had laying around but I wanted a professional looking product and bought a box, rheostat, switch and plug to fit my AC adapter from radio shack costing me $25 total and still had to buy a stirbar. Was fun to build though.

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Your post makes it seem like $25 for a DIY is expensive compared to something you can buy, but everything I find online is way more expensive. I can't find a stirplate under about $60. Am I looking in the wrong places or did I misunderstand your post? Thanks.

I probably was not clear. The link above has a stirplate for $45 and you can surely build one less than $20 if you have the parts available and imagination. I thought I wanted a lighted switch(it too f***en bright), plug to fit the ac adaptor I had rather than hard wire it in and a fancy knob for the speed control.
I'm sure that are guys here that didnt have to spend a dime to build thiers.