Belgian Dark Strong Ale Rochefort 8 clone (as close as you can get)!

It has the recipe's time in the fridge for bulk conditioning, the rest of the time it has been sitting in the apartment's room temp. I make sure with any Belgian ale to have it just cooler than room. There are fruit notes, just not exactly like those in the real deal. Still damned tasty though! It is being entered into my first competition.

My very humble attempt using Marris otter, etc..Hopeville calculator.. Got the TG way down.. May have mashed it a bit on the cool side and that I ground this fairly fine. The final product has thus far been tasted after 7 weeks of bottle conditioning. Not quite as smooth tasting as the original, a bit more bitter than I had hope for thus far...



malt & fermentables
# OZ
72% 11 0 Pale Malt (Maris Otter) info 37 3 ~
11% 1 12 Caramunich Malt 40 info 33 40 ~
10% 1 8 Belgian Dark Candi Sugar D2 info 32 160 ~
3% 0 8 Special B Malt info 30 150 ~
3% 0 8 Corn, Flaked info 37 1 ~
1% 0 2 Carafa II info 32 412 ~
Total 15 6

Batch size: 5.0 gallons
Original Gravity 1.074 measured (1.086 estimated)
Final Gravity 1.010 measured (1.021 estimated)
Color 34° SRM / 66° EBC (Black) not measured


Mash Efficiency 69% measured (really??)
(75% used for O.G. estimate)

mash
Given initial grain temp of 68 °F
And initial water to grist ratio of: 1½ quarts per pound
Protein Rest infusion of 5.77 gal at 141 °F to reach 133 °F for 20 mins
Conversion / Saccharification Rest infusion of 2.54 gal at boil to reach 154 °F for 60 mins
Mash-out infusion of 2.66 gal at boil to reach 167 °F for 15 mins



hops
use time oz variety form aa
boil 60 mins 1.75 Styrian Goldings info pellet 5.4
boil 30 mins 0.75 Hallertauer info pellet 4.8
boil 5 mins 0.25 Hallertauer info pellet 4.8

Boil: 6.0 avg gallons for 60 minutes Bitterness
38.3 IBU / 9 HBU
yeast
Wyeast Belgian Abby Ale II (1762) info

Alcohol
8.5% ABV / 7% ABW

(8.7% est. ABV / 7% est. ABW)
Calories
283 per 12 oz.

I think you mashed correctly IMO. BLAM has 90% apparent attenuation with an OG of 1.078 for Rochefort 8 so that would be a FG of 1.0078 or roughly, 1.008. You're closer to the actual FG than the original recipe! How did it taste? It looks great in the side by side...

So, two questions, after reading this thread:
(1) Is post #1 recipe close to it (Rochefort 8)? How did it turn out? Has anyone actually brewed it WITHOUT substitutions?
(2) or, does someone have a (AG) recipe that is close to Rochefort 8?

My original posting (recipe) has been brewed many times by me as is. This is the recipe as it stands with no substitutions. As far as the end result, I've been home brewing for about 6 years now and I would have to say this is one of the best recipes I have on hand. It took first in a comp as well. It's a must brew if you like the style. ENJOY!

I don't recall if I did substitutions, but I know I did it incredibly close and any modifications were meant to be the same for what it was swapping for.

That being said, it came out incredibly close, just a bit more caramelly and a little less fruity. Tasty tasty!

MagicLarry and Tall Yotie. Thanks for the feedback.
I will try this next month when White Labs has their WLP 540 out (only available July/August).
I will also do it with the Candi Syrup mix of 1 lb of D-90 and 1/2 lb of D-180.
I hope to report back in 6 months!

DannPM said:

I think you mashed correctly IMO. BLAM has 90% apparent attenuation with an OG of 1.078 for Rochefort 8 so that would be a FG of 1.0078 or roughly, 1.008. You're closer to the actual FG than the original recipe! How did it taste? It looks great in the side by side...

Click to expand...

Thanks for the compliment. This remains a work in progress. I just opened a bottle now after 11 weeks in the bottle and it is starting to soften up a bit. More like the real thing. As mentioned in this tread, it may take 5 months to fully develop.

MagicLarry said:

My original posting (recipe) has been brewed many times by me as is. This is the recipe as it stands with no substitutions. As far as the end result, I've been home brewing for about 6 years now and I would have to say this is one of the best recipes I have on hand. It took first in a comp as well. It's a must brew if you like the style. ENJOY!

Click to expand...

I have also tried a PM version along with an AG version and they both are incredible. I was able to tweek the TG of the AG with my mashing schedule down to 1.010 and the PM down to 1.012. Here is one possible 5 gal PM version. I just happened to have a 40 pound bag of Maris Otter otherwise I would have gone Belgian. Everything else, the hops and yeast , of course are the same.

LB OZ MALT OR FERMENTABLE PPG °L
62% 6 15 Briess Pilsen Light DME 44 2
18% 2 0 Pale Malt (Maris Otter) 37 3
9% 1 0 Belgian Candy Sugar Light info 36 0
7% 0 12 Caramunich Malt 40 33 40
3% 0 5 Special B Malt 30 180
1% 0 2 carafa special I 42 320

The AG version is much more refined in flavor (closer to the real thing), but the PM version has the same appearance and also is a great belgian style beer.

How long did everyone's attempt at this beer take to carbonate? I bottled about 3 months ago and popped a bottle tonight for the first time. The aroma and flavor are quite nice but it is very flat.

Am I jumping the gun here or is this batch ruined. Count me nervous....

jmm635 said:

How long did everyone's attempt at this beer take to carbonate? I bottled about 3 months ago and popped a bottle tonight for the first time. The aroma and flavor are quite nice but it is very flat.

Am I jumping the gun here or is this batch ruined. Count me nervous....

Click to expand...

Mine was two weeks. What temp are you storing them at to carb?

DannPM said:

Mine was two weeks. What temp are you storing them at to carb?

Click to expand...

About 70-75 degrees in my basement. Same as all my other beers.

I had a blow-off the first day in the primary. Did I possibly lose too much yeast? My FG was still pretty close.

Mine started showing signs of reasonable carbonation at 3 weeks which was a surprise given the strength of this beer. It was probably 6 weeks before mine showed full carbonation.

If it was just one bottle, then I'd say you need another one or two more data points from other bottles in the batch. Even if they are not well carbed I wouldn't say it's ruined. There are ways to recover.

Hex23 your right on. 5-6 weeks is pretty much when this beer starts to show proper carbonation.

So, mine's been sitting in bottles for 6 months, now, and I'm still not at all pleased. At this point it's carbonated enough to drink, but not enough to form a real head. It took about 3 months to get to that point.

This was actually my first all-grain beer, which was probably a bit of a reach for me. At the time I brewed it, there was no D2 syrup available anywhere, so I used the soft brown candi sugar. Looks like the D2 is available again, now.

Mine wound up around 1.090 (I think I used slightly more sugar and slightly more grain on purpose as I was actually hoping for something closer to a Rochefort 10).

I fermented it in my apartment which I don't really heat during the winter, ambient temps around 60. The fermentation was the most explosive I've ever seen. I had a blow-off tube fitted, but even that kept getting clogged with yeast. The lid blew off the bucket once. Fermentation temps got until the 73 degree range, despite the cold apartment. Almost right off the bat, the banana odors were so strong, my wife asked if I were baking banana nut bread!

I'd read about this yeast giving off banana notes. These were not notes, but entire banana symphonies.

About a month after bottling it, it tasted like banana-flavored rocket fuel, and was still flat.

Now, 6 months later, it takes like mellow banana-flavored rocket fuel. It's still too harsh, and out of about 25 batches of beer I've brewed, it's the only one I won't serve to guests.

Rochefort is my favorite beer in the world, and since others have had luck with this, I'm going to keep trying.

Since I've been brewing all summer in my un-air conditioned apartment, I've had good luck cooling fermentation temps by keeping the fermenter in a large cooler filled with water, and I add ice as necessary to keep the fermenter temp where I want it. Next time I brew the Rochefort, I plan to do the following:

1) Maintain the temperature at or below 65F.
2) Add more yeast when bottling. I know some of you guys have had luck without doing so, but I haven't.

Sorry to hear of your disappointment. This recipe can really make a great beer. It's good to hear you want to try again.

Couple of thoughts/questions:

I would definitely expect a higher OG like 1.090 to take longer to carb. Not sure about 6 months though.

The amount of banana ester makes me wonder about your starter. Is it possible you underpitched? How big of a starter did you make? I would say given that gravity I would expect it to be around 3L (assuming one activator pack). The temp played a role for sure, but I accidentally let mine get to 78F during the first 48 hours and I have very minimal banana flavor.

I brewed this recipe this past weekend. Used Carafa I instead, but reduced the amount. Made a 2L starter earlier in the week and this thing took off in like 4 hours max.

Bought a corker and Belgian bottles. Gonna try to carb high.

Make some labels if you have time, would be a nice touch for the holiday season!

MagicLarry said:

Make some labels if you have time, would be a nice touch for the holiday season!

Click to expand...

That's the plan! Trying to learn a label program right now. After primary, I'm going to bottle condition this until the holidays and give them as gifts.

Did a test run with a Black IPA:

Gimp is great, and free. Give it a try, you can produce some really nice labels with it.

Hex23 said:

The amount of banana ester makes me wonder about your starter. Is it possible you underpitched? How big of a starter did you make? I would say given that gravity I would expect it to be around 3L (assuming one activator pack). The temp played a role for sure, but I accidentally let mine get to 78F during the first 48 hours and I have very minimal banana flavor.

Click to expand...

I made a 1.5L starter from an activator pack. It took off pretty quickly, but I suppose it's possible it wasn't enough. I can definitely try a bigger starter next time, seems like I'm certainly unlikely to overpitch.

I missed low on OG and got 1.072. Entered as a Dubbel in a local homebrew comp and got a 35.5, but didn't place (20 entries in Belgian Strong Ales).

Might try entering it again as it ages. It was only bottled for 24 days at competition time and I think it's really good right now.

I bottled into 17 750ml Belgian bottles with corks and cages, 2 375ml Belgians, and the rest into regular long necks. All bottle conditioned. The Belgians will be aged until Christmas and given out as gifts.

BrewThruYou, don't be discouraged by the competition results. Although your OG was a little low I'm sure the end result was still good. Bottle conditioning the brew is a must, and with patients you will be rewarded with an outstanding ale. Re-enter a comp in six months from now with a couple of those bottles and I'm sure the result will be different. Good luck!

ok, after my visit to Rochefort in October, i HAVE to tackle this clone of 8!!!!

Gomer (the brewer with glasses on, second from left), Pere Jacques our tour guide of the abbey & host (with which we ate cookies and drank beer with!) and me sitting on the right. Awesome day....

Everyone is talking about bottling this beer - do you think that the priming and bottle conditioning process adds anything to the flavour profile?

I brewed this a couple of months ago and it's sitting in a cool garage, I was going to keg it but do you think I'll be missing a trick by not bottling?

I think this style is supposed to be bottle conditioned - the real one definitely is. And I think bottle conditioning adds to the character. This beer is high enough gravity that it certainly needs some conditioning time. If it's been sitting in your cool garage for a couple of months that should have helped. Has it been on a yeast cake that whole time? If you keg, you'll probably still get a good tasting beer, but probably not like a bottle. The ones I brewed over a year ago now seem to just keep getting better. Certainly a beer worthy of cellaring.

Hm, maybe I will make the effort to bottle it then.
If I've counted correctly, I think it had about 3 weeks in primary (rising from 66 to 73 degrees) then 6 weeks in the garage (varying from 32 to 55), still on the yeast cake. I guess it's ready to put in the bottle?

That should be plenty of time bulk conditioning, especially if it was on the primary cake that whole time. For mine I planned on a 4 week primary, but got the flu and waited till 5 weeks.

A few questions ...

Has anyone done a single infusion mash instead of the step? If so, what mash temp?

Has anyone kegged this vs. bottling? If so, what were the results?

Has anyone made their own dark candi syrup? How many pounds of sugar will I need to make 3 pounds of candi? Am I better off buying the stuff or making it?

ultravista said:

Has anyone made their own dark candi syrup? How many pounds of sugar will I need to make 3 pounds of candi? Am I better off buying the stuff or making it?

Click to expand...

The opinions I have read make it seems like Belgin Syrup is exponentially better if purchased vs homemade.
As for how to do it, from what I know you boil any simple sugar with some acid like lemon juice or the like until you get a color you like.

Never did it myself though.

i tried searching for an answer, and i know for sure a ton of belgians have that tiny percent of corn/maize, but... why?

just curious what <4% flaked corn would contribute that couldnt simply be replaced with basemalt or sugar

Silly question here, but are you all botteling with normal caps or corking? I don't see why carbing to less than 3 volumes would require corks? Thanks.

JG

I use normal caps. They work just fine.

To the OP: Is your grain bill for a 70% effeciency? Thanks man.

Joe

Yes 70% is what it's based on, enjoy!

Going to try this out soon! Love Rochefort! I thought there was around 5% wheat in the Rochefort recipes... I was listening to a podcast by the homebrewchef and and I swore he said there was 5% wheat in the recipes... you know, good for the monks and all. I can't find the podcast atm but anyone hear this?

http://www.homebrewchef.com/Inside_Rochefort.pdf
Page 30 - 5% wheat starch. I'm guessing you could sub out the flaked corn for the wheat?
Any ideas?

Matteo57 said:

http://www.homebrewchef.com/Inside_Rochefort.pdf
Page 30 - 5% wheat starch. I'm guessing you could sub out the flaked corn for the wheat?
Any ideas?

Click to expand...

I would guess that your on the right track. The use of wheat starch is mentioned in Brew Like A Monk as a Rochfort ingredient that is used in the mash in place of sugar as an adjunct.
Pg 64 in BLaM says they use a small percentage of wheat starch where they used to use corn because they feared GMO's. That indicates its been a very recent change in their recipe.

MagicLarry said:

10.92 lb Pilsner (2 row) Belgian (2.0 SRM) 70.24%
1.73 lb Caramunich Malt (46.0 SRM) 11.13%
0.58 lb Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM) 3.75%
0.58 lb Special B Malt (114.0 SRM) 3.75%
0.23 lb Carafa special dehusked (302.0 SRM) 1.47%
1.50 lb Dark Belgian candy sugar (100 SRM) 9.65 %
1.73 oz Styrian Goldings [4.20%] Boil 60 min
0.75 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [3.50%] Boil 30 min
0.39 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [3.50%] Boil 5 min
0.38 oz coriander seed Boil 5 min (Crush first)

MASH PROFILE

Protein rest Add 12.64 qt water at 156.2F to get 142F for 30min
Saccrification Add 11.23 qt water at 170.2F to get 154F for 60 min
Mash out Add 9.83 qt water at 205.6 to get 168F for 5 min
Begin Vorlauf then drain Mash Tun
Sparge with 0.73 gallons of water at 168F

Carb with 4.83 oz corn sugar

This is the award winning recipe by Hermann Holtrop from a Rochefort 8 clone comp that was held in the Netherlands. I think it's very close to the original Rochefort 8. A little darker then the original, but just as tasty... enjoy! If you can't find Carafa Special, Carafa l (337.0 SRM) will work well but will be a bit darker so scale back a bit.

Click to expand...

Are you batch sparging or fly sparging this?