PID controller build

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sgraham602

sgraham602

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Can anyone point me in the direction of a good resource on how to build a PID controller for a direct fired mash tun? I'd like to make a set up with a gas solenoid that will auto fire my mash tun burner.

Is it hard to do? (I have very little electrical experience)
 
I am in the process of doing the same thing, I have read nearly every thread out thread out there, and still feel a little lost
 
Conceptually it is easy enough to do but the details are bound to prove burdensome especially if you have no electronics and coding experience. The algorithm has been implemented in many ways over the years (pneumatically, for instance) but I can't imagine doing it any way other than in an Arduino or similar 'computer' today.

The first step is to understand the algorithm itself. The Wikipedia article should serve as an introduction.
 
sgraham602 said:
If I get a PID
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean here. If you buy a PID controller then no, you just set if for proportional output, pick a cycle time, tune it and go. I thought the object was to build something using the PID algorithm. In that case you will have to code the PID algorithm and write some code that turns the PID algorithm heat demand into duty cycle and switch control. If you don't necessarily want PID you can also encode other control laws e.g. have the controller turn heat on when temperature drops below a specified value and back off when it rises to some other specified value.
 
I might not be on the same page here. I want to have this be as painless as possible.

I want to use something like a Love controller to control a gas solenoid and fire up my MLT burner when it falls below the desired temperature.
 
Silly me. I interpreted your request for info on 'how to build a PID' to mean that you wanted to build a PID. I think what you really want to do is buy a PID controller and hook it to a gas valve. That can certainly be done and is actually very easy to do. You get a controller that has relay output and wire the relay, the coil on the valve and a small transformer (sufficient to operate the valve) in series. You then put the controller in proportional output mode, hook up the temperature sensor and you are in business. You can operate the controller in delta mode or PID mode. If you choose the latter you will have to tune the controller which you may well be able to do using its 'autotune' feature (which all modern controllers have).
 
Man I wish I understood what that means. I was really hoping for someone to post an idiot proof answer. Where do you get the controller?
 
Given the nature of the questions I humbly suggest that perhaps this isn't the best thing for folks with your levels of experience to undertake. I would strongly suggest that each of you try to find a mentor willing to work with you in setting this up. You are working with gas and electricity and those two can be bad combination if sparks occur at the wrong time.
 
Oh I have no intention of trying this. But I keep hoping for something to make sense. I'm going to buy it when I have everything else for my single tier ready to go.
 
Direct firing temperature adjustments are kind of the worst... You get a crappy temperature gradient, you tend to overshoot or undershoot depending of where is the sensor or how tall your grain bed is, you apply direct high heat to part of the grain bed... plus you want to control gas flow, which might not be harder than controlling a pump or a heating element, but is sure the less secure approach. HERMS and RIMS setups sure look better in pretty much every aspects...

Is there a reason why you would want to direct fire your MLT instead of the other options?
 
sgraham602 said:
I might not be on the same page here. I want to have this be as painless as possible.

I want to use something like a Love controller to control a gas solenoid and fire up my MLT burner when it falls below the desired temperature.
Click to expand...
Give me a few days. I'll try to come up with a diagram and wiring plan using the Auber Instruments PID - SYL-2352

Just as a reference, here is a fairly complex one that I drew quite a while ago using the BCS-460 controller:

BCS-460-wiring4-e3.jpg
 
For your E-stop are you grounding the hot leg? Thus relying on the circuit breaker in your house panel to trip?
 
I just have never seen an E-stop used in such a manner in my 13 yrs of commercial/industrial HVAC. You are relying on the house to have proper and up to date wiring and main panel. To many variables to make it totally safe.
a better method would be to have a double pole e-stop in order to disconnect power from the line side and the neutral side.

I would have to look threw the NEC book to see if it says anything. OSHA would red tag it.
 
Yellowirenut said:
I just have never seen an E-stop used in such a manner in my 13 yrs of commercial/industrial HVAC. You are relying on the house to have proper and up to date wiring and main panel. To many variables to make it totally safe.
a better method would be to have a double pole e-stop in order to disconnect power from the line side and the neutral side.

I would have to look threw the NEC book to see if it says anything. OSHA would red tag it.
Click to expand...
Whatever...

I will not discuss it.
 
P-J. Thanks for the diagram. Looks complicated! But with some research I might be able to pull it off. I'm hoping with the simplicity of my setup it won't be too hard. I too live in Charlotte NC. Are you a member of the Carolina Brewmasters?
 
sgraham602 said:
P-J. Thanks for the diagram. Looks complicated! But with some research I might be able to pull it off. I'm hoping with the simplicity of my setup it won't be too hard. I too live in Charlotte NC. Are you a member of the Carolina Brewmasters?
Click to expand...

I was a member some time ago but have not participated for several years.

The drawing I'm messing wth for you now will be fairly easy to follow (I hope).
 
Yellowirenut said:
I just have never seen an E-stop used in such a manner in my 13 yrs of commercial/industrial HVAC. You are relying on the house to have proper and up to date wiring and main panel. To many variables to make it totally safe.
a better method would be to have a double pole e-stop in order to disconnect power from the line side and the neutral side.

I would have to look threw the NEC book to see if it says anything. OSHA would red tag it.
Click to expand...

I have seen a similar implementation once on a 10,000w amplifier for a LDS vibration table we had at one of my previous jobs. The EStop would activate a relay that would connect one of the power rails to ground causing a bunch of internal fuses to blow. This is a very similar concept except we are using our GFCI instead of $200 fuses.
 
atreid said:
Direct firing temperature adjustments are kind of the worst... You get a crappy temperature gradient, you tend to overshoot or undershoot depending of where is the sensor or how tall your grain bed is, you apply direct high heat to part of the grain bed... plus you want to control gas flow, which might not be harder than controlling a pump or a heating element, but is sure the less secure approach. HERMS and RIMS setups sure look better in pretty much every aspects...

Is there a reason why you would want to direct fire your MLT instead of the other options?
Click to expand...

I know there are a million threads debating RIMS vs Direct fire vs HERMS. I already have a burner under my mash tun that Ive been using for the heat and stir method, so it only seems natural to run with a direct fired rims. I thought about moving to a RIMS, but i dont know if it is worth scrapping a portion of my system for a complete redesign. I've got to imagine that whether its a RIMs tube or HERMS, just about every system is going to have some degree of "yo-yoing" on the temperature.

Plus one of the most copied systems of all times uses a direct fired RIMS. :rockin:
 
The wiring aspects of the controller and it's components is starting to make sense to me, however the only thing I am still not sure on is power source. Is it possible to power a pid that controls 1 honeywell valve and 2 pumps with a single 20 amp circuit on a standard household outlet? If not how about just the pid and valve?
 
P-J said:
Give me a few days. I'll try to come up with a diagram and wiring plan using the Auber Instruments PID - SYL-2352

Just as a reference, here is a fairly complex one that I drew quite a while ago using the BCS-460 controller:
Click to expand...

You have diagrams for BCS systems? Now I know I'm going to have to hit you up eventually. :)

How about Brewtrollers?
 
noonanjs said:
The wiring aspects of the controller and it's components is starting to make sense to me, however the only thing I am still not sure on is power source. Is it possible to power a pid that controls 1 honeywell valve and 2 pumps with a single 20 amp circuit on a standard household outlet? If not how about just the pid and valve?
Click to expand...

Easily. You should have no problem doing it on a standard 15A, for that matter.
 
I know you are looking to build this one your own, but if you were looking for one commercially produced to use as an example blichman makes the "tower of power". It's really expensive about 600$. If you by the controller and stand with the pump the total is about 1500$ or so. I wish I was rich enough to be able to drop that much money on a controller. Good luck.
 
fluidmechanics said:
I know you are looking to build this one your own, but if you were looking for one commercially produced to use as an example blichman makes the "tower of power". It's really expensive about 600$. If you by the controller and stand with the pump the total is about 1500$ or so. I wish I was rich enough to be able to drop that much money on a controller. Good luck.
Click to expand...

You could buy the EBC2 from higravity homebrew and it would run you $300 (before shipping) and all you need after that is a couple thermowells and a coulpe Ranco ETCs. You'd bee all in for about $500.

http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=3073

http://www.etcsupply.com/ranco-etc111000000-digital-temperature-controller-p-86.html

All you have to do is wire a couple plugs up. Even someone who is totally electrically challenged like myself can wire a plug. This is about as affordable as it gets if you don't have someone to really walk you through it.
 
sgraham602 said:
Can anyone point me in the direction of a good resource on how to build a PID controller for a direct fired mash tun? I'd like to make a set up with a gas solenoid that will auto fire my mash tun burner.

Is it hard to do? (I have very little electrical experience)
Click to expand...

Auberins.com is the best source for most brewing related electronics
 
acasell said:
Start at Auberins.com and go from there - wiki and www.theelectricbrewery.com should answer any other questions.
Click to expand...

Man, I wish I had thought of that.:smack: Just kidding!:D Seriously though, Auberins just makes it easy to find PIDs and SSRs. And unless you're looking to fully automate your brewery and spend in the neighborhood of $2,000 to do so Kals control box just has to remain in the dream category. His heating elements are by far the best though.
 
It's not rocket science. ajdelange is making it too hard. I understand that you are just trying to get some information like where to buy a PID. I've built five different RIMS (Recirculating Infusion Mash System) over the last three years. I started out with a PID from Auber Instruments. It is an excellent PID, but I found that a MYPIN TA4 PID is more accurate in that it displays tenth of degrees. These can be found on Ebay for around $30.00. Make sure that you use an RTD probe. The best one is from Auber Instruments at http://www.auberins.com/. They are pricey but you can choose from many different configurations on mounting and probe size.

I'm sure somebody has a diagram to show how to wire these things up, but as ajdelange said, find somebody to wire this thing up for you if you have no electronics experience. 120V can kill you...240V can kill you deader.
 
Double_D said:
And unless you're looking to fully automate your brewery and spend in the neighborhood of $2,000 to do so Kals control box just has to remain in the dream category. His heating elements are by far the best though.
Click to expand...

Kal has done a great service by documenting his build so well, but he has set a very high bar. For most set ups his controller would be overbuilding.
 
tlb2525 said:
It's not rocket science. ajdelange is making it too hard.
Click to expand...


From what I saw, ajdelange hadn't even said anything technical yet, and already getting "derp." In what sentence does ajdelange "make it too hard?"
 
sgraham602 said:
P-J. Thanks for the diagram. Looks complicated! But with some research I might be able to pull it off. I'm hoping with the simplicity of my setup it won't be too hard.
...
Click to expand...

It took me quite a bit longer than I had planned to make the diagram for you.

As always: Click on the image to see (and save) a full sized diagram printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")



There are 4 indicator lights in the diagram (2 green and 2 blue) that are 24V devices. They can be secured from this site:
LED Green - ECX2052-24L
LED Blue - ECX2054-24L

I hope this helps you.

P-J
 
P-J said:
It took me quite a bit longer than I had planned to make the diagram for you.

As always: Click on the image to see (and save) a full sized diagram printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")

http://www.pjmuth.org/beerstuff/images/Honeywell-gas-controller-setup-wiring4-a2.jpg

There are 4 indicator lights in the diagram (2 green and 2 blue) that are 24V devices. They can be secured from this site:
LED Green - ECX2052-24L
LED Blue - ECX2054-24L

I hope this helps you.

P-J
Click to expand...

P-J, is there a way to contact you directly? I'd like some help with my upcoming eHERMS but it's a fair bit more complicated than most, so I figured it'd only fair to compensate you. Let me know if that's something that sounds reasonable to you.
 
emjay said:
P-J, is there a way to contact you directly? I'd like some help with my upcoming eHERMS but it's a fair bit more complicated than most, so I figured it'd only fair to compensate you. Let me know if that's something that sounds reasonable to you.
Click to expand...

Start a thread and post the information that you are dealing with and the plan that you want to implement. I'll try to do what I can to help.

I have my PM's turned off for some time now so that is not a viable way of contacting me. I shut it down as I was receiving an overwhelming number of requests every day.
 

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