Few issues with my sparge water volumes and gravity

So my laptop died right before my first all grain batch and I lost access to my BeerTools Pro software. I've been having to use the water calculators from brew-journal.com and brew365.com as a substitute. I brewed up Biermuncher's Cream of Three Crops today as my first ten gallon all grain batch. For some reason I ended up with an extra gallon for my pre boil volume and I also overshot my gravity by 10 points after a 90 minute boil. I've had similar issues with some 5 gallon batches as well. I was able to hit my gravities by boiling longer so that wasn't really an issue.

My question is where is this extra water volume coming from??? If I added that extra gallon I would have had close to 14 gallons of wort and there's no way I'm boiling off that much.

I really appreciate any input from you guys.

I'm a batch sparger, so if you're fly sparging this may not apply.
Honestly, I only use my calculator for mash-in.
After that, I collect my 1st running and then sparge whatever I'm short for my pre-boil.
Can't comment on the other software, but if you had your recipe (I assume you had your recipe since you were able to brew), why wasn't your water volumes included?
Sorry if that's a dumb question... I use BS2, and it's on my phone too.

Here's the recipe I used: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f62/cream-three-crops-cream-ale-66503/

I'm batch sparging as well. Without the proper software it almost feels like I'm flying blind.

Klickmania said:

I'm batch sparging as well. Without the proper software it almost feels like I'm flying blind.

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No need to fly blind. The volume of your first runnings should be the mash volume less the amount lost to absorption, which is about .12gal/lb of grain. Your pre-boil target minus the first runnings gives you the estimated sparge volume needed. When batch sparging I usually throw in a little extra so I don't risk being short then just stop collecting when I hit volume.

chickypad said:

No need to fly blind. The volume of your first runnings should be the mash volume less the amount lost to absorption, which is about .12gal/lb of grain. Your pre-boil target minus the first runnings gives you the estimated sparge volume needed. When batch sparging I usually throw in a little extra so I don't risk being short then just stop collecting when I hit volume.

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Thanks man! I guess the issue now is figuring out the pre boil volume needed. The online recipe builders I've been using don't give me one. Is it basically the final batch size plus the boil off rate and trub loss?

Klickmania said:

Thanks man! I guess the issue now is figuring out the pre boil volume needed. The online recipe builders I've been using don't give me one. Is it basically the final batch size plus the boil off rate and trub loss?

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You've got it. There's also a slight loss to chilling (4%) which would be a little less than a quart on a 5 gallon batch.

Ok I guess I was just over thinking it really. All those water volume calculators I came across online account for like half a gallon equipment losses then half a gallon trub loss. Which I thought to be a little high. In honesty I haven't really measured for all that's stuff, but I figure that I'm losing about half a gallon total between both. Is this something that most all grain brewers worry about or no?

Also how much strike water are you heating for say a five gallon batch with an OG of say 1.055? And do you use all of it, or just dump what you don't need?

chickypad said:

no need to fly blind. The volume of your first runnings should be the mash volume less the amount lost to absorption, which is about .12gal/lb of grain. Your pre-boil target minus the first runnings gives you the estimated sparge volume needed. When batch sparging i usually throw in a little extra so i don't risk being short then just stop collecting when i hit volume.

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this^^^^^

Klickmania said:

Ok I guess I was just over thinking it really. All those water volume calculators I came across online account for like half a gallon equipment losses then half a gallon trub loss. Which I thought to be a little high. In honesty I haven't really measured for all that's stuff, but I figure that I'm losing about half a gallon total between both. Is this something that most all grain brewers worry about or no?

Also how much strike water are you heating for say a five gallon batch with an OG of say 1.055? And do you use all of it, or just dump what you don't need?

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It's probably worth keeping good notes for a few batches so you can dial in your system. I am a dump-everything-into-the-fermenter kind of gal so I don't account for "equipment losses". I figure in about .5 - .75 gal per 5 gallon batch for trub loss (usually depending on how much hops I used).

How much strike water depends on how thick/thin you want to mash. 1.055 is about 10 lbs of grain? I'd mash with about 3 gallons (1.2 qt/lb). I measure before I heat it, no point in heating what you don't need. As I said I do heat a little extra sparge water (like a couple quarts) so as not to be short into the kettle.

chickypad said:

It's probably worth keeping good notes for a few batches so you can dial in your system. I am a dump-everything-into-the-fermenter kind of gal so I don't account for "equipment losses". I figure in about .5 - .75 gal per 5 gallon batch for trub loss (usually depending on how much hops I used).

How much strike water depends on how thick/thin you want to mash. 1.055 is about 10 lbs of grain? I'd mash with about 3 gallons (1.2 qt/lb). I measure before I heat it, no point in heating what you don't need. As I said I do heat a little extra sparge water (like a couple quarts) so as not to be short into the kettle.

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I meant to say sparge water. I understand mash thickness, I'm just an idiot lol. If you have to wait to measure your first runnings, do you just heat up a certain amount of sparge water and dump what you don't need?

No, read my previous post. You can estimate by subtracting the amount lost to absorption from your mash water. So if you mash with 3 gallons, and10 pounds of grain absorb 1.2 gallons, your first running will be about 1.8 gallons. Then as I said, I add a quart or two to the sparge calculation so as not to end up short.

chickypad said:

No, read my previous post. You can estimate by subtracting the amount lost to absorption from your mash water. So if you mash with 3 gallons, and10 pounds of grain absorb 1.2 gallons, your first running will be about 1.8 gallons. Then as I said, I add a quart or two to the sparge calculation so as not to end up short.

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Gotcha! Feel a little stupid now haha. Wouldn't be the first time either. I really appreciate all the help! I'll be sure to take some really detailed notes next time I brew so I can get everything really dialed in.

Take a look at www.dennybrew.com

Denny said:

Take a look at www.dennybrew.com

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Better yet, read about it from the batch sparge master!

Denny, I actually read through your page a few times before my first all grain go around and it was a HUGE help. I guess I just misread/overlooked the water volume part. I figured it would be easy to heat the sparge water halfway through the mash but I guess that's not necessary. Thanks again guys! I freakin love how helpful his forum is.

So while reading through Denny's site, I noticed he mentions adding a certain volume of water to hit 50% of pre-boil volume with his first runnings. Is this needed/beneficial to efficiency?

My only water additions have been my strike water and my sparge water. Should I be adding more water after the mash and before the sparge to hit 3.25-3.5 gallons of first runnings? If so, what temperature should that water be?

I don't mean to hi-jack, just having my world turned upside down yet again by delving deeper into the mind of Denny haha.

The only thing I can think that would be referring to is mash out water to halt any further conversion. In any case I don't really see it helping efficiency that much.

It seems like a mash-out addition but Denny didn't note what temperature the water was and it sounded like it's only purpose was to increase the volume of the first runnings.

I didn't think the first runnings volume mattered. I figure just sparge until you hit your pre-boil volume. Also with batch sparging I thought doing a mash-out was inconsequential and unnecessary... so that leaves me .... puzzled?!?!

VTrookie said:

So while reading through Denny's site, I noticed he mentions adding a certain volume of water to hit 50% of pre-boil volume with his first runnings. Is this needed/beneficial to efficiency?

My only water additions have been my strike water and my sparge water. Should I be adding more water after the mash and before the sparge to hit 3.25-3.5 gallons of first runnings? If so, what temperature should that water be?

I don't mean to hi-jack, just having my world turned upside down yet again by delving deeper into the mind of Denny haha.

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Since I wrote that (I GOTTA get some edits up!), I've discovered that that is seldom necessary. For one thing, while equal volumes does give you the best efficiency theoretically, in practice it doesn't make much difference. even a 70/30 split will have negligible effect on efficiency. These days, I mash with a higher ratio (1.75 qt./lb. is average) in order to avoid that. I have found that the thinner mash did actually raise my efficiency a couple points. I use a water temp of about 190 for both the pre mash runoff addition if I do it, and for the sparge water.

Thanks for the clarification Denny!!! Does the 190F water extract any tannins or is it just enough to raise your grain bed temp with out having to worry about astringency issues?

I have been sparging with 170-175F water :-/

Tannin extraction has almost nothing to do with temps and almost everything to do with pH. If your pH is OK, then higher temps aren't a problem. Look at decoction mashing, where you actually boil a portion of the grain. The reason you can do that is becasue the pH of the mash is low enough to not extract tannins.