Saving water!

I brew with a 10 gallon setup from 3 sanke kegs converted into HLT, MLT and BK. When I brew I usually do 10 gallons. Obviously to brew water is used, and a lot of it goes down the drain, sanitize solution, washing out the mash tun, drinking (I brew outside, it gets hot) and many other uses. So of course I expect my water bill to show a bit of a change if I brew a few times a month rather than just once.
I hook the end of my immersion chiller up to a hose and fill up a 50 gallon rain barrel and use ice packs in place of ice when chilling the wort in a water bath.
Does anyone have any good tips on how to conserve and reuse any of the water used on a brewday?

No-chill requires no extra water to chill with. I only use water for the brew and cleanup.

No-chill?

I dont have a water bill, so I dont share your concerns. A buddy of mine, though, used to have the output end of the chiller go to a 5 gallon bucket to dump in the washing machine on laundry day. Wont save water on brew day but it will on laundry day.

No chill as in finish brewing, and put a lid on your BK or transfer it to a container with a lid and set it somewhere cool to chill overnight. I do it every time I brew. I rack my wort to a fermenter and place it in my cool garage with a fan on it and it cools in about 8 hours. Never had a problem with efficiency.

PoorYorick said:

No chill as in finish brewing, and put a lid on your BK or transfer it to a container with a lid and set it somewhere cool to chill overnight. I do it every time I brew. I rack my wort to a fermenter and place it in my cool garage with a fan on it and it cools in about 8 hours. Never had a problem with efficiency.

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What he said OR you can put your wort (above 200*F) in an HDPE container and chill in that over night.

If you are interested, search for the "exploring no chill" thread. Lots of great info on there.

No chill as in finish brewing, and put a lid on your BK or transfer it to a container with a lid and set it somewhere cool to chill overnight. I do it every time I brew. I rack my wort to a fermenter and place it in my cool garage with a fan on it and it cools in about 8 hours. Never had a problem with efficiency.

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Have you had any problems with infection from leaving it in the boil kettle for 8 hours? when transferring hot wort into a carboy have you had any problems with oxidation due to hot side aeration?

CBMbrewer said:

Have you had any problems with infection from leaving it in the boil kettle for 8 hours? when transferring hot wort into a carboy have you had any problems with oxidation due to hot side aeration?

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You want to aerate/oxygenate the wort before pitching the yeast. Yeast love the oxygen and it helps them do what they do. After fermentation is when you risk oxygenation.

lol - I wasn't aware you could "waste" water. But anyway, how much extra do you think you are going to pay sending an extra 20 gallons down the drain? On my bill, this would be covered under the minimum usage. I think you are looking at a false sense of economy here.

As I understand it you want to aerate the wort once it is cooled instead of while it is still hot to avoid oxidation in the finished beer. Also, I have read that leaving the wort at hot temps but not boiling for an extended amount of time can cause DMS, that creamed corn flavor. What about infection, Poor yorick? Great name by the way, haven't seen any other Shakespeare references on any homebrew forum.

HSA - Hot Side Aeration, is considered more a myth according to many people on this forum.

Aeration is supposed to be done right before you pitch your yeast which does not necessarily right after it is cooled. Yeast need oxygen to reproduce and do their job but once they get full and tired the oxygen will hurt your finished beer.

As far as DMS being produced, there have been a few side by side tests done of no chill vs fast chilling and all them concluded that it is not an issue. Aside from the "Brew Your Own" episode(s?) on it, a few people in the "Exploring No Chill" thread that I mentioned have tried it themselves and come to the same conclusion.

No chill is highly utilized in Australia due to their strict water restrictions and more and more people in the states are doing it as well.

Keep in mind, if you use your BK to no chill in then you should not use your ball valve to fill your fermenters the next day because it will not be sanitized.

I have not experienced any infections since I have been brewing, and I literally have done no chill method every brew. The brew pot is sanitized form the boil procedure and I have a lid that I keep sanitized that fits snugly on top. With safe and sanitized practices I believe there is little chance for infection. My wort is no more aerated than when racking when it's cool either....

I did mess around with an immersion chiller but it really did seem like a waste of water when I can just let the wort sit. Especially if you are brewing 10 gallon batches ever two weeks or even more often.... that water can add up lol However at some point in the future I do plan on buying a plate chiller to add to my setup and those I do recommend using.

CBMbrewer: Thanks for noticing the name I have an awesome painting depicting the scene of Opelias grave with Hamlet holding the skull.

Slipgate said:

lol - I wasn't aware you could "waste" water. But anyway, how much extra do you think you are going to pay sending an extra 20 gallons down the drain? On my bill, this would be covered under the minimum usage. I think you are looking at a false sense of economy here.

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Water is expensive here in Chicago. (Yes, I know, we're right next to one of the largest bodies of fresh water on earth. Remember, it's Chicago).

"Wasting" an extra 20 gallons adds up quickly. Building a rain barrel for the garden and recycling brewing water cut my water bill by 75%. No false sense of economy here.

Thanks for the tips. Slipgate, water is a commodity and can be conserved, you are false for thinking otherwise (see TyTanium's post above). I know yeast needs oxygen guys.

If the water goes down a city sewer, it is recycled. According to Chicago water rates, 1000 gallons costs $2.51 + 89% of that for sewer. That is roughly 9 cents for 20 gallons. Probably the cheapest part of your brew day. As you pointed out, you are next to one of the largest freshwater bodies in the world, so there is no shortage of water.

But I get your drift.

Slipgate said:

If the water goes down a city sewer, it is recycled. According to Chicago water rates, 1000 gallons costs $2.51 + 89% of that for sewer. That is roughly 9 cents for 20 gallons. Probably the cheapest part of your brew day. As you pointed out, you are next to one of the largest freshwater bodies in the world, so there is no shortage of water.

But I get your drift.

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It's not the usage rates that kill you, it's the taxes.

CBMbrewer said:

when transferring hot wort into a carboy have you had any problems with oxidation due to hot side aeration?

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HSA is not a concern when transferring hot wort into a carboy since the carboy is going to explode and the wort will be all over the floor.

In the summer, I run the water into a wading pool for the dogs. Otherwise, it goes into the septic tank and out into the drain field where it eventually hits the "timber line". That's out at the retirement house.

Our main home, they don't charge for water. In the winter they check the meters and use that as a basis for sewer fees, but it's the same year-round.

Few ways to decrease your usage during brewing other than no chill. The only other ways I can think of are to clean more efficiently with less water and make sure your chilling is very efficient. You can reuse the otherwise wasted water in lots of ways.

Use an old carboy to reuse your star san(it doesnt go bad)
hook a sprinkler up to the end of your chiller out hose and water the lawn
use the chiller water for laundry
use the chiller water to clean your equipment

I think it's admirable to want to conserve regardless of incremental cost. When you think about how we (myself included) use potable water, it is a bit ridiculous: flushing the toilet is the biggest WTF I can think of. Running potable water through an immersion chiller is wasteful also.

I don't want to start any socio-political arguments here, but Americans use an obscene amount of potable water per capita than most countries.

Due to water conservation rules, I was obliged not to waste water when I started brewing:

Convert your IC to use a submersible pump instead of a garden hose so you have a closed system.

[Pump In Ice Chest] ---> [IC] -- [Return To Ice Chest]

Start with just enough H2O to keep the pump primed. Add ice. As the hot water returns, it'll melt the ice so you have more water volume and colder water.

Keep adding ice until you hit your target temp. Refreeze the water in the ice chest for your next cooling session.

Nothing is wasted except for evaporation.

I brew in the backyard, use an immersion chiller, and the water I use to do that goes right into the swimming pool, so chilling is not an issue.

However, bottle washing and sanitizing does use a lot of water. Now if someone could come up with and market cleaning and sanitizing products that were plant safe, I'd collect that water and use in the garden. As it is, it has to go down the drain.
Kegging may save some water over bottling as far as cleaning goes. It does help to use one of those pump action bottle washers though...you recycle the water over many bottles as opposed to running the faucet for 30 minutes.
I may move from Iodaphor to Starsan. Seems like you don't need to use as much water with the foaming action.

Hamsterbite said:

However, bottle washing and sanitizing does use a lot of water. Now if someone could come up with and market cleaning and sanitizing products that were plant safe, I'd collect that water and use in the garden. As it is, it has to go down the drain.

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Have you tried oven sanitizing? I have a small oven and can fit at least 50 bottles in it. The whole process takes about 3 hours but you can do it days or weeks prior.

wherestheyeast said:

I think it's admirable to want to conserve regardless of incremental cost. When you think about how we (myself included) use potable water, it is a bit ridiculous: flushing the toilet is the biggest WTF I can think of. Running potable water through an immersion chiller is wasteful also.

I don't want to start any socio-political arguments here, but Americans use an obscene amount of potable water per capita than most countries.

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Flushing toilets is quite possibly the best use of water. Have you been to a densely populated place without a sewer system? The disease prevention alone is worth it, and you get the environmental comfort for free.

Xpertskir said:

Flushing toilets is quite possibly the best use of water. Have you been to a densely populated place without a sewer system? The disease prevention alone is worth it, and you get the environmental comfort for free.

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"The solution to pollution is dilution"

H-ost said:

Have you tried oven sanitizing? I have a small oven and can fit at least 50 bottles in it. The whole process takes about 3 hours but you can do it days or weeks prior.

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No, but that will make for some interesting research. Would have to to a cost benefit analysis. Water and petrolium used to power the electricity for my oven are obviously both limited resources.
Maybe a solar oven saniter though? Along with the heat produced, I bet all that concentrated UV would be a very effective means of sterilization as well.

If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down.

logan3825 said:

If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down.

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I thought it was If it's yellow let it mellow, if it's brown, bottle it on week 3 and begin consuming between weeks 4 & 5?

Oh wait, were you talking about something else?

Xpertskir said:

Flushing toilets is quite possibly the best use of water. Have you been to a densely populated place without a sewer system? The disease prevention alone is worth it, and you get the environmental comfort for free.

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I wasn't advocating not flushing toilets. I realize that my message wasn't clear -- I meant to say flushing toilets with potable water. When you think about the idea that we are flushing our toilets with water that comes from the same source of our drinking water, it is kind of ridiculous. (How much time, money & energy goes into treating our drinking water only to be literally flushed down the toilet?)

I had an RV at one point that had a fresh water holding tank, a gray water holding tank (water that goes down sink/shower drains), and a black water tank (from toilet flushes). When on extended trips where water conservation was an absolute necessity, I began to wonder why the toilet was being flushed with fresh water instead of gray water.

wherestheyeast said:

When you think about the idea that we are flushing our toilets with water that comes from the same source of our drinking water, it is kind of ridiculous. (How much time, money & energy goes into treating our drinking water only to be literally flushed down the toilet?)

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So you're suggesting that people plumb non-potable water into their house just to flush the toilets with?

That's ridiculous.

No, I think he's suggesting using already-used water, aka grey water, to flush toilets. Comes into the house once, used twice.

Google search: Grey water systems; it's a real thing

TyTanium said:

No, I think he's suggesting using already-used water, aka grey water, to flush toilets. Comes into the house once, used twice.

Google search: Grey water systems; it's a real thing

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And this pretty well demonstrates the issue that most Americans have no clue or just don't care how wasteful our way of life is comparing to the rest of the planet.
Some in the arrid regions are beginning to get it...especially those where reservoir source waters are drying up, and where the Ogalla Aquifer has receded.

Our sanitary standards are high, yes, and that has played a huge role in the control of disease, but at some point in the near future, flushing toilets with potable water will be very obviously unsustainable.

I would like to have a greywater system...unfortunately, our infrastructure, residential construction codes, and status quo make that pretty much impossible to do (financially, and in some cases logistically) in existing homes. Even if building a new structure, many localities basically wont allow it because it hasn't yet been adressed as an option in their codes. They have no problem writing citations for water ban violations though...

Not sure how you would have a grey water system. You could certainly have a cistern to hold the used water. But how do you get it to the toilette? Water from the city gets to your house via gravity. You would need to put in a pumping system in the house to pump the water from the grey-water cistern to your toilettes. I just don't see this ever being cost effective. The power to run the pump would be more than the water costs. Now where this is necessary due to no public sewers and/or extreme shortages of water, this could be done for reasons other than cost savings and I get that. The OP lives near a huge lake and there are no water shortages. Most people are connected to public sewers. All water that runs through them goes back to the water treatment facility to be reused. Again, you really cannot waste water. It all gets back eventually.

Slipgate said:

Not sure how you would have a grey water system. You could certainly have a cistern to hold the used water. But how do you get it to the toilette? Water from the city gets to your house via gravity. You would need to put in a pumping system in the house to pump the water from the grey-water cistern to your toilettes. I just don't see this ever being cost effective. The power to run the pump would be more than the water costs. Now where this is necessary due to no public sewers and/or extreme shortages of water, this could be done for reasons other than cost savings and I get that. The OP lives near a huge lake and there are no water shortages. Most people are connected to public sewers. All water that runs through them goes back to the water treatment facility to be reused. Again, you really cannot waste water. It all gets back eventually.

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Sorry to the OP...veering off topic in the spirit of his post so I digress. I'll just say that I respectfully disagree with slipgate and suggest if we want to continue this discourse to start a new thread.

@ slipgate

Water does not get to your house solely by gravity. Treatment plants use pumps to maintain the desired pressure to adhere to water demands which vary greatly during peak times and low times. There are also places called pump stations or pump houses along that help maintain proper pressures.

Secondly, the world of water is broken into Drinking Water and Waste Water. "Reclaimed water" i.e. water that has been used for sewage does not get changed back into drinking water, it is treated and reused as non-potable water. Non potable water is used for many things like irrigation, fire hydrants, car washes.... but not drinking water (at least not until the natural water cycle has its way with it).

I run my chiller water into a 5 gallon bucket and use that to clean my equipment.

H-ost said:

@ slipgate

Water does not get to your house solely by gravity. Treatment plants use pumps to maintain the desired pressure to adhere to water demands which vary greatly during peak times and low times. There are also places called pump stations or pump houses along that help maintain proper pressures.

Secondly, the world of water is broken into Drinking Water and Waste Water. "Reclaimed water" i.e. water that has been used for sewage does not get changed back into drinking water, it is treated and reused as non-potable water. Non potable water is used for many things like irrigation, fire hydrants, car washes.... but not drinking water (at least not until the natural water cycle has its way with it).

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You are incorrect on the pressure. All of your pressure comes from the water tower and gravity. Pumps may pump water around and up into the tower, but your houses gets pressure hydrostatically from the tower. I won't discount that some locations may have a pump somewhere in the system but I do not think any of those are related to the pressure you see at your home faucet.

And while there is no direct reuse of water from the sewers (yet), it is typically treated and either dumped in a larger body of water or used for what you described. But eventually, through natural and mad-made processes, ends up back in the municipal water system.

Slipgate said:

You are incorrect on the pressure. All of your pressure comes from the water tower and gravity. Pumps may pump water around and up into the tower, but your houses gets pressure hydrostatically from the tower. I won't discount that some locations may have a pump somewhere in the system but I do not think any of those are related to the pressure you see at your home faucet.

And while there is no direct reuse of water from the sewers (yet), it is typically treated and either dumped in a larger body of water or used for what you described. But eventually, through natural and mad-made processes, ends up back in the municipal water system.

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You are not entirely wrong but your statement is a little to general. Not all municipalities use above ground storage and not all above ground storage means a water tower.

I wont engage in the debate about how municipal water systems operate.......even tho I'd like to.

Switch to a plate chiller. Cuts chill time down to a few minutes. Go to the duda diesel website, I believe they have a chart that tells you how much water is used to chill a batch.

Xpertskir said:

hook a sprinkler up to the end of your chiller out hose and water the lawn

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I like this one.