Exploring "no chill" brewing

Just to re-emphasize that DMS is an acceptable flavor in many beers with Pilsner malt or adjuncts, I copy/pasted the relevant parts of the aroma descriptions for BJCP styles with DMS listed as acceptable, expected at low levels, or as a key component. For No-Chill brewing, the question isn't whether there is technically more DMS in the beer, but whether that's a problem.

Anyway, here goes:

1A. Lite American Lager, 1C. Premium American Lager, and 4A. Dark American Lager: ...Low levels of yeast character (green apples, DMS, or fruitiness) are optional but acceptable...

1D. Munich Helles and 1E. Dortmunder Export: ...Pils malt aroma... and a low background note of DMS (from Pils malt)...

2A. German Pilsner (Pils): ...May have... a low background note of DMS (from Pils malt).

2C. Classic American Pilsner: Low to medium grainy, corn-like or sweet maltiness may be evident...Some DMS is acceptable.

5A. Maibock/Helles Bock: ...May have a light DMS aroma from Pils malt... May have a light DMS flavor from Pils malt.

6A. Cream Ale: ... A sweet, corn-like aroma and low levels of DMS are commonly found...A low to moderate corny flavor from corn adjuncts is commonly found, as is some DMS.

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Most interesting to me is the levels in Cream Ale, which as an ale should have lower DMS levels according to what I've read about it's volatility during fermentation. Incidentally, I'll be entering that blonde as a cream ale next time.

Maybe this has already been brought up in this thread and if it has I apologize for repetition..... as it is 125 pages long, I haven't read all of it and a search yielded nothing.....

If I use DME instead of a base malt and mash for 1 hour with a full specialty grain grain bill in a large grain sack in the boil kettle and do the no chill method, can I do a short 30 min boil and not worry too much about DMS. My understanding was that the full boil in the extract manufacturing process drives off most DMS precursors. I am trying to figure out a very simple, quick and easy to clean up brewing method that still yields good results. I am on a serious time budget. I just don't have tons of time to spend brewing, but I do very much enjoy it. Just busy right now.

Process for IPA's would be:
1) Heat 13 gal water in boil kettle to 150 and mash a few pounds specialty grains in a grain sack for 1 hour with FWH
2) Blast with heat and bring to a boil
3) Toss in bittering hops in a hop bag and start 30 min boil
4) Toss in more hops and whirl floc at 15 mins in a hop bag
5) Toss in more hops at flameout in a hop bag
6) Cover keggle with a sanitized lid and walk away for the night
7) Next day rack to primary fermenter and pitch starter made with this beers wort
8) Day 3 dry hop
9) Day 6 dry hop
10) Week 2 transfer to keg and enjoy

Does this sound reasonable...? Thanks for any advice

That should be fine. I've done a couple batches that were liquid malt extract either by itself or with 1/2 lb or so of caramel malt, with the only one single hop addition after flameout added directly to the bucket I used to chill overnight. Just boiled it for 10 minutes and added 4 oz of a single variety of hops, quick and easy. If you add high enough AA% hops you can get all your bittering this way without boiling the hops at all, but it is kind of a smooth lingering bitterness. There is a good amount of aroma, and the hop flavor comes through a lot - a pure summit hop batch tasted kind of like froot loops to me and one with sorachi ace tasted like lemongrass and kind of like chewable vitamin C tablets. The flavors weren't super balanced but I think it is a good way to get an idea of the overall characteristics of a single variety of hops.

The good thing about this method is you can easily brew a 10 minute batch while you are mashing a regular all grain batch with just a little more work.

I probably wouldn't go with a large amount of hops that remain in contact with the wort while it cools - you could take your 30 minute and 15 minute hop addition out with a spoon right before flame out. One of my beers had a kind of vegetal/grassy flavor when I first kegged it, but that faded within a week or so. I couldn't taste anything that I would describe as DMS in the beers, and I took one to a homebrew club meeting and everyone there liked it quite a bit, even after I told them it was a no chill.

Hope that is somewhat helpful. Good luck!

Thanks for the feedback. I feel lazy because there are so many forum members that are meticulous with every detail of the brewing process and I am trying to find the fastest way to a great IPA. Just cramped on time.

Is there any problem chilling in my boil kettle? Just trying to avoid cleaning another vessel. If all I have to clean is my boil kettle, hop bags and 2 fermenters I will be stoked. Thanks for the feedback

My intention is to have excellent sanitation and a very stable and healthy fermentation. I think if I make sure those two things are most focused on the beer will have to be pretty decent.

Thanks for the advice on not adding too much hops before chilling. I will use a smaller amount of my highest AA hops for bittering, FWH for flavor and dry hops for aroma. Good tip!

I haven't chilled in my kettle but I've read on here that several people have with good results. I think as long as you have a somewhat tight fitting lid it should be fine. I just use my fermenting bucket to chill the wort, with vodka in the airlock and a vodka soaked cotton ball in between the little riser part and the stem so that when air sucks back it has to go through that. I've done probably 20-30 batches this way and left some of them up to a year before pitching yeast with no problems at all. I don't even bother transferring the wort off of all the break material and I keg my beer straight out of primary because like you I sometimes feel lazy. I haven't noticed a difference in quality from when I used to chill my wort and transfer to a secondary, so I've stuck with it.

BTW, I don't know if I was very clear on my comment about how much hops you use, add all the hops you want in the boil, but I would fish them out before you let your wort chill overnight unless you specifically want them for that purpose. When you leave them in there you get a good amount of the bittering potential, so if you only want them for flavoring or aroma keep that in mind. Also having tons of hops in contact with the hot wort for a long time could end up giving you kind of a grassy flavor.

I'm trying to simplify the entire process... Started with extract on the stove top and chilling in my sink and went all the way to tricking out every part of the process down to a 2 burner brewstand made out of redwood, doing all grain with a hopback and a whirlpool chiller with a march pump and now I have arrived at DME with no chill..... simple simple simple...... What has happened to me......lol

JumboBlimpJumbo said:

BTW, I don't know if I was very clear on my comment about how much hops you use, add all the hops you want in the boil, but I would fish them out before you let your wort chill overnight unless you specifically want them for that purpose. When you leave them in there you get a good amount of the bittering potential, so if you only want them for flavoring or aroma keep that in mind. Also having tons of hops in contact with the hot wort for a long time could end up giving you kind of a grassy flavor.

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Oh, gotcha.... I was planing on using hop bags to keep the bulk of the sediment out of the primary. I will pull them out after flameout to keep the alfalfa flavors to a minimum.

I have no shortage of hops.... I love hops and have frikin tons......2 years ago while I was really gung ho brewing, I bought 25 lbs of hops. Shortly after that, life caught up. They have been sitting in a chest freezer in their original vaccum bags since then. I haven't brewed in 2 years..... I really hope they are still good......

GlassblowersBrew said:

I really hope they are still good......

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Only one way to find out

ghpeel said:

Its funny how the "experts" who discredit No Chill brewing because of DMS concerns have never actually tried it properly. They either dismiss it out of hand (like Mr. Wizard), or they perhaps tried a less-than-ideal variant on it (like just pouring hot wort in an ale pale and waiting 3 days to pitch).

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For a few more experts...
I recently listened to a beersmith podcast from a few months ago:
"My panel includes John Palmer, Gordon Strong and Denny Conn in a wide-ranging discussion of beer brewing techniques and myths.
.
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The panel talks about the advantages of rapidly cooling your beer and the rise of a new technique called “no chill” brewing"

http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2011/12/22/beer-brewing-myths-holiday-episode-beersmith-podcast-29/

Ok hmunster, you're kind of annoying me here. Did you listen to that podcast? Those guys ALL DO EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. They dismissed the technique while having never tried it themselves.

The closest experience they have is the anecdote that Denny mentions about Dan Listermann saying that no chill works great. Dan Listermann is a pal of Randy Mosher (Radical Brewing) and sells a line of popular homebrewing equipment including "Phil’s Phalse Bottom", "Phil’s Lauter Tun" and "Phil’s Sparger". That's the only real-world contact that they have with No Chill Brewing.

I really don't know what to say to people who hear 90% positive feedback about a new technique, yet still dismiss the technique out of hand without trying it themselves, because it violates their dogma. That seems to me like people are just holding on to old processes just because they have so much work invested in those processes.

ghpeel said:

Ok hmunster, you're kind of annoying me here. Did you listen to that podcast? Those guys ALL DO EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. They dismissed the technique while having never tried it themselves.

The closest experience they have is the anecdote that Denny mentions about Dan Listermann saying that no chill works great. Dan Listermann is a pal of Randy Mosher (Radical Brewing) and sells a line of popular homebrewing equipment including "Phil’s Phalse Bottom", "Phil’s Lauter Tun" and "Phil’s Sparger". That's the only real-world contact that they have with No Chill Brewing.

I really don't know what to say to people who hear 90% positive feedback about a new technique, yet still dismiss the technique out of hand without trying it themselves, because it violates their dogma. That seems to me like people are just holding on to old processes just because they have so much work invested in those processes.

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Shhh, stop trying to convert them and lets just keep this technique to ourselves.

ghpeel said:

Ok hmunster, you're kind of annoying me here. Did you listen to that podcast? Those guys ALL DO EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. They dismissed the technique while having never tried it themselves.

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Yes, I did listen, and why I posted it. Sorry for the miscommuinication, but that's the point I was trying to make - these "experts" dismissed it without any experience.

hmunster said:

Yes, I did listen, and why I posted it. Sorry for the miscommuinication, but that's the point I was trying to make - these "experts" dismissed it without any experience.

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Oh! Well let me apologize then. I didn't realize you were echoing my point! Cheers.

ghpeel said:

Oh! Well let me apologize then. I didn't realize you were echoing my point! Cheers.

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Not a problem.

btw - the one I found interesting/confusing was Denny Conn. I got the impression that he was about homebrewing for fun, do what works for you, etc. I like that attitude. But on this point he seemed unwilling to consider that it's been working for many brewers for quite a few years.

hmunster said:

Not a problem.

btw - the one I found interesting/confusing was Denny Conn. I got the impression that he was about homebrewing for fun, do what works for you, etc. I like that attitude. But on this point he seemed unwilling to consider that it's been working for many brewers for quite a few years.

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Yeah. I regularly see Denny's posts on a view other places, and while he is more laid back than a few others, no one but Ol' Uncle Charlie has truly said "relax, dont worry, have a homebrew!"

For example, Denny has championed the idea that decoction mashing is basically pointless, and he's also hopped (no pun intended) on the First Wort Hopping bandwagon. I guess No Chilling is just too radical for him. HOWEVER, he was the only guy on that panel to mention that Dan Listerman guy, who has done No Chill successfully.

ghpeel said:

Dan Listerman guy, who has done No Chill successfully.

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Not too surprised to see Listermann has done it. From his questioning of the actual value of rehydrating dry yeast vs. the risk of screwing it up, I get the impression he is more of the practical brewer than the theoretical brewer. I'll have to search down his experience with no-chill. Thanks

I've been using no chill for the past year. It definitely works for me! I just made a cream ale and used 1.5 pounds of honey in it. I added the honey to my bucket and racked the hot wort onto it to dissolve and mix it. The next day when I racked of the trub (of which I only had less than a pint!), the honey aroma was incredible! When I make meads, I don't boil so I keep a lot of the floral honey character. My thought was to use the heat of the wort to pasteurize the honey and seal it to trap the aroma in. So far, I'm very happy with the results. I'll know for sure in about a month.

HDChef said:

I've been using no chill for the past year. It definitely works for me! I just made a cream ale and used 1.5 pounds of honey in it. I added the honey to my bucket and racked the hot wort onto it to dissolve and mix it. The next day when I racked of the trub (of which I only had less than a pint!), the honey aroma was incredible! When I make meads, I don't boil so I keep a lot of the floral honey character. My thought was to use the heat of the wort to pasteurize the honey and seal it to trap the aroma in. So far, I'm very happy with the results. I'll know for sure in about a month.

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+1 Very interesting...

Just an update to my first no-chill attempt that I previously posted about here.

It turned out great! It was a brown porter and I simply transferred the near boiling wort to a corny keg and fermented in the keg. Once fermentation was complete I racked it to a fresh keg, chilled, carbed, and drank it. Neither I nor anyone else who tried the beer had anything bad to say about it. I couldn't tell any difference between this no-chill beer and those that were rapidly chilled using an immersion chiller.

It's so simple it's beautiful isn't it?

I want to jump back in with an observation I keep having. Regarding the "transfer" addition of hops (ie, hops placed in the No Chill vessel as the hot wort is poured in), I am still convinced that while Pol's original idea that they count as a 20 Minute Addition is correct in terms of the flavor provided, it seems like they do NOT count as a 20min addition for the Bitterness. I am thinking they don't provide many IBU's at all.

I've done 2-3 beers with a basic bittering addition, and then a load of hops (2-3 ounces) as the 'transfer' addition, and NONE of them seem as bitter as they should if that transfer addition counted as a 20 minute addition for IBU calculation.

My most recent beer was a Scottish ESB (Golden Promise, WLP028, a little crystal & wheat) had the following hops:

0.75oz Challenger (7.5%) as FWH
0.50oz Palisades (9.7%) as 60min
2.25oz Challenger at transfer into the No Chill cube
1.00oz Challenger at dry hop

The beer is very balanced, as a classic ESB should, but if that transfer addition counted as 20min for IBU's, then it should clock in at around 70 IBU. It most certainly does NOT taste like 70. I punched the transfer addition in as a "Post Boil" addition into Hopville's recipe calculator and got an estimated IBU amount of about 35, which tastes pretty accurate to me.

Caveat: for this beer, I let the wort cool to about 180-185F before transferring it into the Cube. However, I did an English Pale Ale some months ago with 3oz of about 5-6% AA East Kent Goldings as the transfer addition, poured into the cube at 200+F and got the same kind of result. That beer was down-right sweet.

I don't want to find the post with his table in it but I have to say I kind of agree with you ghpeel. I'm finding that I am not getting nearly as many IBUs from cube hopping as I expected when I first started this. I get more flavor but not too much aroma either. I haven't cube hopped for a while because I don't fully understand how it will affect the beer yet.

However, for the last 4 batches roughly 2/3 of my total hops are going in FWH and I have been loving the results. FWH combined with an addition at 30-20min has been great for my less hoppy beers and for an Irish red it was FWH>45min>15min and I loved it. There isn't too much science to my method yet, maybe I willl have enough data compiled to understand my utilization better, but for now I kinda look at the recipe and try my best to decide how I should do them with the increased hop utilization we are supposed to be receiving.

H-ost, how much bitterness are you tasting from your FWH? I know the supposed IBU count is higher, but perceived bitterness is much lower. Would you mind posting your recipe for that Irish Red so that I can see the hop schedule?

And yeah, I also don't get any aroma with cube hopping, just flavor. Which is the reason I suspect Pol pegged it at a 20min addition, cause that's what you'd expect, I suppose.

It would be a fun experiment to do a no-boiled-hop beer. Just FWH, cube hopping and dry hopping.

Sure thing, I will do my best to remember and post it when I get home.

I have been almost exclusively doing no-chill for all my batches. Unless there is some sort of external factor forcing me to chill right after brewing I always leave it overnight. Needless to say I have yet to have a bad beer from it.

I am curious what the ratio of cuber's vs. kettle chiller's are.

I just leave it overnight in the same kettle I boiled it in. I simply clean the lid and lock it down with alligator clips. It takes less then 24 hours (sometimes >16 hours during winter) to reach pitching temperatures at which point I move it into the primary and throw in the yeast.

Maybe I am missing something here, but what is the real advantage of the cube? I no chill because of sheer laziness, so moving near boiling hot wort from one container to another seems redundant if leaving it serves the same purpose.

Is it because in the hotter climates you may be required to leave it for several days before its ready for pitching?

I like cubes for a few reasons. Like last brew I was to lazy to pitch for 3 days. I prefer to do all my cleaning at one time and if I let it sit in the BK the trub and junk would take more effort to clean than a spray with the hose. I do 10 gallon batches and sometimes only have one fermenter open so I have to leave 5 gallons in a cube for a little while. I use a spigot on my BK and that would clog after everything settled over night plus I would have to sanitize that the next day unless I wanted to use a siphon to make my transfer. I like my cubes and i don't think chilling my BK is the best option for my process.

Bradinator said:

I have been almost exclusively doing no-chill for all my batches. Unless there is some sort of external factor forcing me to chill right after brewing I always leave it overnight. Needless to say I have yet to have a bad beer from it.

I am curious what the ratio of cuber's vs. kettle chiller's are.

I just leave it overnight in the same kettle I boiled it in. I simply clean the lid and lock it down with alligator clips. It takes less then 24 hours (sometimes >16 hours during winter) to reach pitching temperatures at which point I move it into the primary and throw in the yeast.

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Do you have an Aluminum or SS kettle. My 1st attempt at no-chill I tried leaving in my Aluminum kettle overnight to cool, wrapped tight with foil. The next morning it had an awful smell & band-aid taste. I fermented for 3 weeks. It has been in the keg for another 3 weeks now, it is getting worse. I don't know if it was the kettle or something else. The rest of my process was the same one that has produced very good beers. I have gone back to chilling until I can figure this out.

What do you clean your kettle with? Maybe you just didn't rinse it out well enough before that brew day? I don't know if that would cause an increasingly bad taste though.

H-ost said:

What do you clean your kettle with? Maybe you just didn't rinse it out well enough before that brew day? I don't know if that would cause an increasingly bad taste though.

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Scrub with dish soap & rinse a few times.

HDChef said:

I've been using no chill for the past year. It definitely works for me! I just made a cream ale and used 1.5 pounds of honey in it. I added the honey to my bucket and racked the hot wort onto it to dissolve and mix it. The next day when I racked of the trub (of which I only had less than a pint!), the honey aroma was incredible! When I make meads, I don't boil so I keep a lot of the floral honey character. My thought was to use the heat of the wort to pasteurize the honey and seal it to trap the aroma in. So far, I'm very happy with the results. I'll know for sure in about a month.

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Perhaps not only is the honey sterilized because of the hot wort but honey is an anti-septic on it's own.

I use an aluminum pot. I clean mine in a similar fashion, scrubbing with soap and water then rinsing the hell out of it several times. Never had a bad batch from it since I started using it from over a year ago.

Bradinator said:

I use an aluminum pot. I clean mine in a similar fashion, scrubbing with soap and water then rinsing the hell out of it several times. Never had a bad batch from it since I started using it from over a year ago.

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That's how I was doing it before immersion chillers. I took a starsan soaked towel and tossed it over the top cuz I leave it outside overnight. No issues here!

ok. Am I reading the no chill chart correct? If doing a 60 minute boil, I add bittering hops at 40 minutes to go? Thank you.

Its now boiling. Add the hops now or at 40 minutes to go? Thanks again.

crisputer said:

Its now boiling. Add the hops now or at 40 minutes to go? Thanks again.

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40 min

Awesome! That's what I did. Thanks!

Well I might have my first No Chill failure on my hands. I've been experimenting with letting the wort cool down in the kettle to around 190 or so before transferring into the No Chill tank, in the hopes of getting better hoppy beers. On my last batch, (a Bo Pils) I got it down to 180F before transferring, BUT i was using a new digital thermometer that seems wonky and I suspect the wort was cooler than that.

When I went to pitch yeast, the tank didn't look all sucked in like it normally does. It didn't look bulged out or anything, but it definitely wasn't slightly collapsed like it normally is. The wort smells fairly sour too

I pitched and fermented as normal, and I'm cold crashing it now, but the samples I've tasted seemed very lactic-sharp, and had a Wit beer like phenolic aroma. Again, this was a Bohemian Pilsner, so while its way to early to tell, I am not too hopeful.

So let this be a warning at best, and a lesson at worst (if the beer is ruined). Its OK to let your wort cool to 200F or so before pouring in, but don't risk it getting much cooler.

I've been putting mine in the winpak right after flameout. It seriously sucks in and permenantly destorts the winpak but I feel better about not getting infected.