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Smidey

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Hey guys,

I can't find the pertinent laws for Pennsylvania, so I figured I would just ask my favorite forum. My sister is 20 and would like to transport some of my new homebrew within the state for her boyfriend's 21st Bday. Is it legal for her to transport the beer by herself or does she have to have someone who is 21 in the car? My thoughts were that she had to have someone who is 21 in there, but I figured that I should at least ask
 
Is it legal, probably not. But I would just put it in the trunk and tell her not to get pulled over.
 
Not advocating any crime, but possibly a loophole, if an adult were to lock the alcohol in a container and mail the key to the recipient, or better yet use a combination lock on a metal locker and phone the combo to the recipient, then there would be no basis for:

"Constructive Possession

Constructive possession is a legal theory used to extend possession to situations where a person has no hands-on custody of an object. Most courts say that constructive possession, also sometimes called "possession in law," exists where a person has knowledge of an object plus the ability to control the object, even if the person has no physical contact with it (United States

v. Derose, 74 F.3d 1177 [11th Cir. 1996]). For example, people often keep important papers and other valuable items in a bank safety deposit box. Although they do not have actual physical custody of these items, they do have knowledge of the items and the ability to exercise control over them. Thus, under the doctrine of constructive possession, they are still considered in possession of the contents of their safety deposit box. Constructive possession is frequently used in cases involving criminal possession."

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/constructive+possession
 
Is it legal, probably not. But I would just put it in the trunk and tell her not to get pulled over.

I would go with this, put it in the trunk and drive carefully. If she did get pulled over, what are the chances they will search her car. And as long as she doesn't start drinking you homebrews on the way home, the story of a 20 year old taking her brothers homebrew home for her boyfreinds 21st would probably end up with the cop not caring - to much paperwork for no real benifit to society. Just my $0.02 ;)
 
I pmmned Airbornguy, our resident Law enforcement officer. He might have some insight. I don't think it's really an issue. how often does a vehicle get searched during a traffic stop if there's no probable cause for something beyond the initial stop anyway?
 
mattd2 said:
I would go with this, put it in the trunk and drive carefully. If she did get pulled over, what are the chances they will search her car. And as long as she doesn't start drinking you homebrews on the way home, the story of a 20 year old taking her brothers homebrew home for her boyfreinds 21st would probably end up with the cop not caring - to much paperwork for no real benifit to society. Just my $0.02 ;)

Besides, without probable cause, or a warrant, can a LEO legally search a car without owners consent?
 
I pmmned Airbornguy, our resident Law enforcement officer. He might have some insight. I don't think it's really an issue. how often does a vehicle get searched during a traffic stop if there's no probable cause for something beyond the initial stop anyway?

True. but that doesn't make it legal!

The law is clear. In PA, if you are under 21, you cannot be in possession of alcoholic beverages no matter how they got there. Even if you have a note from your mom!

(don't laugh- I've had my daughter pick up stuff at the homebrew store in Wisconsin for me. She's now over 21, but I hated sending her in there to buy stuff, even though it was 100% legal for her to pick up my DME for yeast starters!)
 
(don't laugh- I've had my daughter pick up stuff at the homebrew store in Wisconsin for me. She's now over 21, but I hated sending her in there to buy stuff, even though it was 100% legal for her to pick up my DME for yeast starters!)

It's funny, I was getting my gear together for Natl Homebrew Day and since I'm doing a burton ale I picked up some stuff today from the lhbs for tweaking the water, I now have all these ziplock baggies from them filled with strange white powders. It would not be too fun to have those tossed carelessly in the back seat of my car and get pulled over.
 
Some of my kegs have a loop on the bail to put a lock on. With a lock on the lid cannot be opened. As long as there is no disconnects In the car or way to open the keg there is no way to access the beer so it should be legal.
 
..don't laugh- I've had my daughter pick up stuff at the homebrew store in Wisconsin for me. She's now over 21, but I hated sending her in there to buy stuff, even though it was 100% legal for her to pick up my DME for yeast starters!

My first adventures into homebrew were at the tender age of 16, we drove to the LHBS, the lady there help us pick out a starter kit and ingredients for our first batch, from there we purchased Coopers kits from the supermarket!
We gave up after a year though, too much work for sub-par beer. We really had no guidence apart from that first visit to the LHBS (who still advocates kit and kilo batches for beginers). So we were trying to keep the beer above24 deg C all the time, bottling after a week (although we were checking with a hydrometer), and drinking after only 2 weeks in bottles :cross:
soooooo.. what were we talking about :eek:
 
... I now have all these ziplock baggies from them filled with strange white powders. It would not be too fun to have those tossed carelessly in the back seat of my car and get pulled over.
lol, probably wouldn't end well

Some of my kegs have a loop on the bail to put a lock on. With a lock on the lid cannot be opened. As long as there is no disconnects In the car or way to open the keg there is no way to access the beer so it should be legal.

That's an interesting move, but unfortunately, I haven't started kegging yet :( (I do have a brewshed about to start that I will def throw in the DIY forums and will make a keezer to go in there, so it won't be too long). Since it isn't going to happen for a month-ish, is it legal to just mail the homebrew (expensive, I know, but DEFINITELY not as expensive as furnishing and possession charges)
 
This thread reminds me of one of my younger days. Heading up to the cabin with the boys (all about 20 at that point) with a trunk full of 10 cases of high life and a couple of shotguns. Got pulled over in a speed trap, thank god they didn't check the trunk.
 
It's funny, I was getting my gear together for Natl Homebrew Day and since I'm doing a burton ale I picked up some stuff today from the lhbs for tweaking the water, I now have all these ziplock baggies from them filled with strange white powders. It would not be too fun to have those tossed carelessly in the back seat of my car and get pulled over.

lol, i have some corn sugar from farmhousebrewing, and have not identifiers on them... i thought if i got caught with these it would not be a fun day... they look like kilo bags from the movies. so right now i make my mom think they are something they are not :cross::tank:
 
If she is under 21, it is not legal for her to possess alcoholic beverages.

somehow i doubt its that clean of a line... most states have an 18 year old serving law (as a waiter or waitress) and 21 year old consumption law (in public) and possession and consumption are totally different and have different laws. ... i'd venture a guess (only a guess) that if its in the trunk, you're legal.

i frankly wouldn't think twice, but i'm the kind of guy that lets his 9 year old take a sip of the newest batch to try (he hates beer but has honest feedback like "yuck, its sour" or "yuck, its bitter" or just "yuck") so i probably shouldn't be listened to.
 
somehow i doubt its that clean of a line... most states have an 18 year old serving law (as a waiter or waitress) and 21 year old consumption law (in public) and possession and consumption are totally different and have different laws. ... i'd venture a guess (only a guess) that if its in the trunk, you're legal.

You can't even buy a six pack of beer in PA at a grocery store!

From Wikipedia: Beer may only be purchased from a restaurant, bar, licensed beer store, or distributor. Beer distributors mainly sell cases and kegs of beer, not smaller volumes of beer such as six packs. Six and twelve packs, along with individual bottles such as 40 ounce or 24 ounce beers, are sold at bars, restaurants, and licensed retailers. A consumer is limited to 192[1] ounces of beer per purchase. For larger quantities one must go to a beverage distributor which sells beer only by the case or keg. Beverage distributors (which also sell soft drinks) may sell beer and malt liquor, but not wine or hard liquor. Unlike the Wine and Spirits shops, people under 21 may enter most beverage distributors without an adult, subject to the rules of the individual establishment.

PA laws are archaic, and when I visit, I go to Ohio to buy beer. (I grew up on the border of PA and OH). I would be certain that if someone under 21 has more than 192 ounces of beer they would be in big trouble.
 
Yooper said:
You can't even buy a six pack of beer in PA at a grocery store!

From Wikipedia: Beer may only be purchased from a restaurant, bar, licensed beer store, or distributor. Beer distributors mainly sell cases and kegs of beer, not smaller volumes of beer such as six packs. Six and twelve packs, along with individual bottles such as 40 ounce or 24 ounce beers, are sold at bars, restaurants, and licensed retailers. A consumer is limited to 192[1] ounces of beer per purchase. For larger quantities one must go to a beverage distributor which sells beer only by the case or keg. Beverage distributors (which also sell soft drinks) may sell beer and malt liquor, but not wine or hard liquor. Unlike the Wine and Spirits shops, people under 21 may enter most beverage distributors without an adult, subject to the rules of the individual establishment.

PA laws are archaic, and when I visit, I go to Ohio to buy beer. (I grew up on the border of PA and OH). I would be certain that if someone under 21 has more than 192 ounces of beer they would be in big trouble.

I know from experience. PA sells by the case. Also they don't sell liquor and beer in the same stores. Felt stupid asking where's the beer in the liquor store. Lol.
 
Possession: completely illegal, no loopholes. She can't be the person in possession of that alcohol.

Likelyhood of getting caught: not much, but if she gets into a serious accident, it could become a problem.
 
Yooper said:
If she is under 21, it is not legal for her to possess alcoholic beverages.

In some states it is legal, sealed container, in the trunk

Edit: Actually thats probably not true. Im a liar. I admit it.
 
That's the thing about possession, you have to have knowledge AND access. Interesting to see the differences of interpretation, wonder how a lawyer or judge would reply, guess it's up to the individual, as always, to make their own best judgments.
 
Bigger concern: If said minor is nailed for illegal possession, the legal system will want to also prosecute the individual that provided the alcohol to the minor.
 
Hey guys,

I can't find the pertinent laws for Pennsylvania, so I figured I would just ask my favorite forum. My sister is 20 and would like to transport some of my new homebrew within the state for her boyfriend's 21st Bday. Is it legal for her to transport the beer by herself or does she have to have someone who is 21 in the car? My thoughts were that she had to have someone who is 21 in there, but I figured that I should at least ask

From what I read, in most states, doesn't matter if there is a 21 year old in the car. It would have to be a parent.

That being said, we all break the law from time to time and I assume she drinks. It's a calculated risk she'd have to consider taking knowing the consequences and the odds of getting caught. She isn't hurting anyone. Let her decide knowing it may be illegal, but so are most things that the average 20 year old does.
 
So I wonder if an under 21 UPS driver can be arrested for possession while delivering my competition entries?

Anyway to answer the other question, yes you can ship beer, just not with USPS, you have to use UPS or Fedex. They have rules against it, but not laws.
 
So I wonder if an under 21 UPS driver can be arrested for possession while delivering my competition entries?

Anyway to answer the other question, yes you can ship beer, just not with USPS, you have to use UPS or Fedex. They have rules against it, but not laws.

Thanks about clarifying that bit. A big thank you to everyone for all of the input on this one. I appreciate it.
 
You can't even buy a six pack of beer in PA at a grocery store!

From Wikipedia: Beer may only be purchased from a restaurant, bar, licensed beer store, or distributor. Beer distributors mainly sell cases and kegs of beer, not smaller volumes of beer such as six packs. Six and twelve packs, along with individual bottles such as 40 ounce or 24 ounce beers, are sold at bars, restaurants, and licensed retailers. A consumer is limited to 192[1] ounces of beer per purchase. For larger quantities one must go to a beverage distributor which sells beer only by the case or keg. Beverage distributors (which also sell soft drinks) may sell beer and malt liquor, but not wine or hard liquor. Unlike the Wine and Spirits shops, people under 21 may enter most beverage distributors without an adult, subject to the rules of the individual establishment.

PA laws are archaic, and when I visit, I go to Ohio to buy beer. (I grew up on the border of PA and OH). I would be certain that if someone under 21 has more than 192 ounces of beer they would be in big trouble.
actually you can buy beer in grocery stores here but it has to be in a designated area that is separate from the rest of the store, yeah our laws are so screwed up...
 
I know from experience. PA sells by the case. Also they don't sell liquor and beer in the same stores. Felt stupid asking where's the beer in the liquor store. Lol.
+1!...Although there's starting to be some loopholes...some grocery stores that serve food for on-premise consumption are selling 6-packs as "BYOB;" consume on premise with your food, although you can just as easily buy and take home as well...
 
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