Finishing a Saison extra dry

Jamil Z says that to finish a Saison extra dry (as the style demands) you will probably need to add a finishing yeast. Something along the lines of WLP001 or a champagne yeast. But the fermentation temps of Saisons slowly ramps up from 68-85 over the course of a week or so.

My question is do I add the finishing yeast at 85 degrees? All signs point to yes, but this high temp would usually cause off flavors. Or is it such a small additional fermentation that they wouldn't even be noticed?! I'm sure you wouldn't want to bring the temp back down to 68 to pitch the WLP001 but I'm just looking for a correct answer here! Jamil is very vague on the subject of pitching the additional yeast.

Thanks in advance for your help!

I'd check the gravity over the course of several days to check if the yeast has actually stalled. If it has e.g. the gravity remains the same, then I would pitch another yeast.

Which strain are you using by the way? If you're using the Wyeast 3711 (French Saison) then you really don't have to worry about it stalling out, it's only with the DuPont strains (WLP 565, 566, Wyeast 3724) that you have to worry about.

I used only 3724 in my saison and it finished at 1.002. Raise the temp into the 80's and rouse the yeast when it starts to slow down and it'll finish out. It may take a while but it'll get there.

Saisons are also one of the styles I think it is easier to get right doing AG than extract. In my experience it's hard to get extract to ferment out super dry like that, but if you do a long and low mash it'll attenuate like there's no tomorrow.

I'm looking at a saison with Wyeast 3711 that's gone from 1.061 to 1.007 in 5 days and is still bubbling. I don't know what the flavor profile will be, but this yeast is an attenuation winner. Of course, if I don't get some farmhouse from it I'll be pissed.

Thanks for the tips guys...I do all grain and mashed at 147 for 90 minutes. The yeast is WLP568 which is a Belgian Saison blend. I just made it yesterday and it's bubbling like crazy and I'm sure I'll get it down really low as I increase the temps over the course of fermentation....but the main question I was asking is IF it doesn't get dry enough do I pitch the extra yeast at the 85 degrees or lower it back down?

kidsmoke said:

I'd check the gravity over the course of several days to check if the yeast has actually stalled. If it has e.g. the gravity remains the same, then I would pitch another yeast.

Which strain are you using by the way? If you're using the Wyeast 3711 (French Saison) then you really don't have to worry about it stalling out, it's only with the DuPont strains (WLP 565, 566, Wyeast 3724) that you have to worry about.

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In fact, I've heard of people using 3711 as a finishing yeast with a Dupont strain as the primary; supposedly it gives a mostly Dupont-ish flavor but isn't as finicky as trying to raise the temps and keep the Dupont in suspension until it ferments out totally.

I haven't done that, but I have used 3711 and it's a beast--huge attenuation, no problem.

steveo929 said:

Thanks for the tips guys...I do all grain and mashed at 147 for 90 minutes. The yeast is WLP568 which is a Belgian Saison blend. I just made it yesterday and it's bubbling like crazy and I'm sure I'll get it down really low as I increase the temps over the course of fermentation....but the main question I was asking is IF it doesn't get dry enough do I pitch the extra yeast at the 85 degrees or lower it back down?

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Yes, you must get the gravity down. If it doesn't get there and the fermentation stalls, pitch some champagne yeast (or better 3711). Keep the temp high through the end of the fermentation. This is what I would do.

Yeah, like passedpawn said, keep that temp high even if you pitch another yeast. The majority of fermentation is done by the time you even think about pitching more yeast. Off flavors will be negligible.

Don't rush WLP568. Belgian saison strains take 4-6 weeks to drop to FG. If you mashed at 147 and ramped the temperature up like you said, then you shouldn't have any problem getting to 1.006 - 1.002 - given time and some swirling. If you're really worried about it stalling, go ahead and pitch a healthy 3711 when it gets to 1.020 or so. Not as cheap as champagne yeast, but it tastes better than champagne yeast. Champagne yeast has the potential to take it too low. Trust me. I've done it once and it was below 1.000. Almost too dry. Personal tastes, however.

Thanks guys.

I'm hoping it doesn't take 4 weeks! Not that I can't wait but my fermentation chamber will be out of service for other beers if it's holding 85 degree temps. I'm trying to have about 4 kegs for a week-long beach house August 28th! Should have done a 10 gallon batch but I've never done a saison before so I don't know how it'll turn out.

I used Wyeast 3711 last month, and it was down to 1.002 in four weeks.

Also, I added my sucrose addition after five days of primary fermentation, and brought the batch into the garage to warm up. The addition of the sucrose, the agitation, and the increase in heat really kicked the yeast into gear.

Yeah, maybe when it gets up to 85 degrees in the fermenting chamber I'll pull it out and just let it go in my brew closet (it's been between 85-90 in there all summer). I can't stop brewing for 4 weeks, that's just ludicrous.

I just brewed up a saison on friday myself. My method of heating is using one of the large tubs with rope handles and an aquarium heater. It's a cheap additional temp control situation for you with no building or construction necessary. I got a marineland visi-therm 100 watt jobber. It was $30 and the tub was like $8.

I checked my gravity this morning after adding my sugar/honey addition yesterday and I'm already down to 1.025 from a gravity of 1.057 from mash and total of 1.074 from sugar additions. So the yeast ate through 50 points in like 4.5 days. I'm using wlp568 and if that doesn't do it for me I have some washed wlp001 in the fridge.

I hear good things about the 568, that's what i'm using too. I'm planning on using the same finishing yeast...if necessary.

I brewed up a saison using 568 just a few weeks ago. It finished extremely dry - around 1.002. And, the flavor is very good. I used orange peel and coriander and SoP, in addition to pils, a little munich, a little malted and a little torrified week, plus sugar. Very nice beer - truly excellent flavor: citrusy, no noticable banana (which was a concern because this is a blended saison yeast) and very understated spiciness - almost unnoticable.

I bottled, corked, and even after only 2 weeks it was fully carbonated (despite 9% abv.)

I use a sankey keg for fermentation and regardless of the yeast strain, the beer always attenuates out nearly fully. I wonder if this has anything to do with the shape of the fermenter?

From what others here have written, except for a couple of yeast strains, saisons should dry out fairly completely.

to those of you who've used 3711, how was the flavor profile from the yeast?

android said:

to those of you who've used 3711, how was the flavor profile from the yeast?

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Mine won't be ready for at least 3 more weeks. Sorry.

I'm going out on a limb here and saying I think mine will be fully fermented with the wlp568 in 2 weeks! Then crash chill, gelatin, keg, serve. Boom

passedpawn said:

Mine won't be ready for at least 3 more weeks. Sorry.

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i've got that yeast to try out also. not that i won't try it or anything, but i still haven't heard back too many reports on how this fares against the dupont strain. i guess i shouldn't hope for a dupont and just see what this gives me. i'm gonna keep it real low on the ABV (saison-wise) and hopefully it gets some decent farmhouse characteristics.

steveo929 said:

I'm going out on a limb here and saying I think mine will be fully fermented with the wlp568 in 2 weeks! Then crash chill, gelatin, keg, serve. Boom

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It's looking like mine will be done by the time it hits the 7 day mark in the fermenter. I checked today and it was down to 1.012 from 1.025 the day previous. Unless it takes a long time to burn through those last 10 points or so I think mine will be a quick ferment.

I've never had a quick ferment with a saison - lol

Of course, I have only ever used 565 too.

WLP568 is a fast fermenter - one week is probably enough... This yeast is described as a blended yeast and does not get stuck like WY3724 or WLP565 - but also does not have the high temperature tolerances (according to the specs.)

I brewed a week and a half ago my first saison with 565. Phil Markowski says it will ferment out all on its on in 3 weeks and I am going to trust him. The flavor of the gravity sample I took last weekend (high 1.020s) was phenomenal though.

Mine's getting close to done sitting around 1.008 and still pretty active. The honey addition is slowing it up. If it weren't for the honey it'd have been done fermenting already.

I took a gravity reading and roused the yeast yesterday (8 days in)...It's at 1.025 from 1.060 and still bubbling nicely this morning at 83 degrees. Bumping it up to 85 today and we'll see what we're at in another week.

mine with 565 was at 1.03 at 5 days and 1.018 at 12 days. Pretty much exactly what Markowski said would happen.

I'll be bottling my saison this wkend, about 3 weeks after brewing.

1.061 - 1.004 = 93% attenuation. I did have 9% sugar in this recipe. Taste shows some clove. I want to reserve further taste tests until it is carbonated in bottle.

To bump an old thread... could those of you who used WLP565 give some more specs on your temperature? I used it this summer and let it ferment around 80 (not the 90's as specified by Farmhouse Ales but also higher than White Labs recommends) for about 4 weeks. It got to 1.012 within about 10 days and then just stayed there.

The taste is still awesome but the FG remains a little high for the style. Any tips on getting it down further would be appreciated.

Thanks

PorterIV said:

To bump an old thread... could those of you who used WLP565 give some more specs on your temperature? I used it this summer and let it ferment around 80 (not the 90's as specified by Farmhouse Ales but also higher than White Labs recommends) for about 4 weeks. It got to 1.012 within about 10 days and then just stayed there.

The taste is still awesome but the FG remains a little high for the style. Any tips on getting it down further would be appreciated.

Thanks

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Add 3711.

passedpawn said:

Add 3711.

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Will be using that next time. I'll wait till the cooler months to order a packet or two none of the close buy places carry wyeast. Mine with 568 and 4 solid closer to 5 weeks in the primary only went to 1.009 it sat at 85-90 degrees for a week solid with agitation daily. I figured after a week long vacation the SG was the same as seven days prior so it was DONE. It still tastes great when chilled.