1BBL Brutus 10 Electric Brewery Build

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GreenMonti said:
The OP says nothing about purging out the welds. How many down supports, ect...

Your stand specs are pretty vague. A 7 foot span using the 1.5" X 1/8" wall will deflect by 1 1/4" in the center with the 2000lbs evenly distributed across it. That's with no center support which, I am sure you plan to do. Given that I am not an engineer I am not sure if you can count the tubing that will be along the bottom as additional wall height to help with deflection. Seeing how this will be on casters and all. It seems to me the load will just be transferred to that tubing. You'll gain some rigidity with the supports connecting them I suppose. If you increase the tubing too 3 X 1 or 1.5 you will only have 1/4" deflection with the same load.

I guess I was trying to be little more specific then you want this thread to be. Sorry. I'll be on the side for the rest of the build.

Take care.:mug:
Click to expand...

The stand will consist of a box frame, but the upper spans (7') will have THREE supports across the span, under each vessel, delivering load to the lower (7') spans.

The stand will never be supporting 2000 pounds, that would be an all out max. It is made to support the weights listed in the OP. There is also a real possibility that there will be 6 casters delivering load to the floor. Three across the front, three a across the back, under each vessel.

The weight that it will actually be carrying is:

100 pounds of grain (a larger grain bill than they will ever have loaded)
40 gallons of wort in the boil
50 gallon compliment of brew water (for starting another batch while the first is boiling)

Add about 30 pounds per kettle for the kettle weight...

The total weight that the stand will have to support, is under 1000 pounds. (970) Their grain bills will be closer to a max of 70 pounds unless they are doing something crazy special.

The NEMA 4X box will hang off the back and the pumps will be slung under in a saddle config as they were on my last rig.

I dont know that you can consider the weight distributed evenly across one span either. It will actually be 4 spans. You have the load on the top front 7' span, the top rear 7' span, along with the two bottom spans that are connected via vertical supports to the upper spans.

Essentially with the supports, it is across four parallel spans, of course you can count that. Then, you also have to consider that MOST of the weight is at the ends of the span where there are direct vertical supports to casters delivering load to the floor. All of that should be taken into consideration. I could place 1000 pounds at each end, directly over the verticals and casters and I guarantee you there would not be 1.25" deflection in the center. Load placement in relation to the casters (where the load is delivered to the floor) is a very important factor, along with realizing that there are actually (4) 7' spans supporting the load, not one.

When it is built, we will fill each vessel to capacity and I will post the deflection on the upper 7' span and we can compare that to your 1.25" deflection number.

Then again, all those years at school could have been completely wasted on me! ;)
 
Built out of tubing with a trellis design would be plenty strong, go look at a stressed member frame on a Ducati motorcycle, T/F or a Pro Stock frame. Light as hell plus plenty strong. True I must mention using 4130 has some flex rather than stiff hence no cracking at welds either. I recall 55 aglllon SS drums at just under $500 each. I'll grab these four barrels than decide later to use or sell, hell they would help pay for my nexr brewery. Already have the MM3-2, 11 kegs, 28 cornys and a BCS 460.
 
BrewBeemer said:
Built out of tubing with a trellis design would be plenty strong, go look at a stressed member frame on a Ducati motorcycle, T/F or a Pro Stock frame. Light as hell plus plenty strong. True I must mention using 4130 has some flex rather than stiff hence no cracking at welds either. I recall 55 aglllon SS drums at just under $500 each. I'll grab these four barrels than decide later to use or sell, hell they would help pay for my nexr brewery. Already have the MM3-2, 11 kegs, 28 cornys and a BCS 460.
Click to expand...

I think that if we were talking a single 7' span of 11ga 1.5" box tubing, we would be looking at trouble. But, like you stated BB, the weight will actually be distributed across 4 spans, and 2/3 of that weight will be directly above vertical supports that are located in conjunction with casters that will deliver the load directly to the floor. Essentially neutralizing the stress being carried by the frame from those kettles.

I didnt look too extensively at 55 gallon SS drums, but I know they are pretty close in price to the Blichman, and for my purposes (building it) they are easier to work with from a weight standpoint, and Blichmann makes all of the parts (falsie, dip tubes, thermo., and sight gauge)

I say either way you go BB, you are lucky to have those kettles and they will put you WAY ahead regardless of what you decide to do. I wish I had them, for free... and could bill someone for them! ;)
 
Called playing my cards i'll call it an investment no matter what the wifey says. She thinks "Stanford & Son's" fits me with my pack rat habit. Not now but in the future I might have a use for that. LOL!
 
BrewBeemer said:
Called playing my cards i'll call it an investment no matter what the wifey says. She thinks "Stanford & Son's" fits me with my pack rat habit. Not now but in the future I might have a use for that. LOL!
Click to expand...

Either way you slice it...

Three 55 gallon SS kettles sitting atop a SS frame, with a SS face plate will just be sexxy.

One issue, that I think may not be an issue, is the sealed NEMA 4X box. All of the SSRs will be heat-sinked and mounted to an aluminum "sub panel" plate in the NEMA box. The box will be about 20" x 20" x 10" (look up the price on that thing!) So it will be large. There will be NO cooling fans (no longer water tight)... so I am hoping that the heat is able to dissipate through the heatsinks and into that aluminum plate effectively so as not to harm the SSRs.

The SSRs will ALL be 40A, max load across them will be 23A...

I am thinking it will be fine, Id love to have a cooling fan, but I also want these guys to be able to dump and spray water all over and not have a care in the world. The power running to the box will run through water tight conduit connectors.

NEMA 4X box, water tight connections and deep potting on the elements... the wires to the elements will be encased in some heavy abrasion proof loom that I found at ElecDirect.
 
I would cut a window out of the bottom of that SS panel like a 8" x 12" and add a 1/4" to 3/8" aluminum plate with a 1" overlap for sealing it watertight again. This way you can mount the SSR's potted inside and outside for the heat sinks. Without this the life of the SSR's will be rather short in that sealed up stainless box, SS is a poor heat conductor. This way your still watertight as well have the heat sink cooling ability for your SSR's, they will generate heat. JMO if it were my build.
 
I should clarify... the box will not be SS, it is a NON metallic NEMA 4X box.

I am trying to wrap my head around your idea BB.

Basically you are talking about creating a hole and then closing up that hole with an aluminum plate. Mounting the heat-sinks to the OUTside of the plate opposite their respective SSRs which will reside on the inside. This way you are wicking the heat from the SSRs to ambient.

I get it... I got it. That is an interesting solution and one that I will consider, thanks.
 
Sorry there I got my head "Up and Locked" today.
A big yes on the aluminum plate for the cutout window on the backside or bottom of your control box.
I was going quick and dirty with mentioning to apply a sealer like silicone with a 1" lap tas an example to
seal the aluminum plate to your panel be it plastic, steel orSS. My plan which is a little
different was to mill a half round of the "O" ring depth of a groove into the aluminum plate,
tap aluminum bars on the inside and screw it together with SS 10-32 screws. Fully sealed plus
the backing of aluminum bar stock of 3/4" wide x 3/8" thick on the inside.
The milled grove idea would be a easy mill project on the Bridgeport in my shop.
I mentioned silicone sealer as most of the members do not have a mill for their home hobby use.
Yes by all means this is what I would use to cool the SSR's, even better yet is add ducting and a
small muffin fan just for some air movement this will vastly increase the BTU's of heat drawn off those heat sinks.
I look a things maybe differently being a indusrtial electrician for many years working around high HP with heat generating electrical equipment. VFD drives create vast amounts of heat while switching. Ask fellow members Jason AKA CodeRage or kladue both top notch industrial workers in the same field as I was. Look at any high powered computer system, commercial buildings packed full of them in the millions of dollars each with water or glycol cooling off frefrigerated cooling systems. There's a reason as electronics hates heat, vs electrical components can take it to a certian limit amount then derated. Heat shortens their life big time. My two cents worth hope this helped?
 
willynilly said:
The stand will consist of a box frame, but the upper spans (7') will have THREE supports across the span, under each vessel, delivering load to the lower (7') spans.

The stand will never be supporting 2000 pounds, that would be an all out max. It is made to support the weights listed in the OP. There is also a real possibility that there will be 6 casters delivering load to the floor. Three across the front, three a across the back, under each vessel.

The weight that it will actually be carrying is:

100 pounds of grain (a larger grain bill than they will ever have loaded)
40 gallons of wort in the boil
50 gallon compliment of brew water (for starting another batch while the first is boiling)

Add about 30 pounds per kettle for the kettle weight...

The total weight that the stand will have to support, is under 1000 pounds. (970) Their grain bills will be closer to a max of 70 pounds unless they are doing something crazy special.

The NEMA 4X box will hang off the back and the pumps will be slung under in a saddle config as they were on my last rig.

I dont know that you can consider the weight distributed evenly across one span either. It will actually be 4 spans. You have the load on the top front 7' span, the top rear 7' span, along with the two bottom spans that are connected via vertical supports to the upper spans.

Essentially with the supports, it is across four parallel spans, of course you can count that. Then, you also have to consider that MOST of the weight is at the ends of the span where there are direct vertical supports to casters delivering load to the floor. All of that should be taken into consideration. I could place 1000 pounds at each end, directly over the verticals and casters and I guarantee you there would not be 1.25" deflection in the center. Load placement in relation to the casters (where the load is delivered to the floor) is a very important factor, along with realizing that there are actually (4) 7' spans supporting the load, not one.

When it is built, we will fill each vessel to capacity and I will post the deflection on the upper 7' span and we can compare that to your 1.25" deflection number.

Then again, all those years at school could have been completely wasted on me! ;)
Click to expand...

So the OP says 4 casters and now you say maybe 6?? With 6 I can see zero deflection. Sure.

Yes, your right I did figure the load out on one piece of tubing. I call that a safety factor of 4.;)

If you have 70lbs worth of grain water in the MLT, another 40 gallons boiling, and another 50 gallons on hold in the HLT.......That's 970 lbs of water alone.

Also, a truss type build is a heck of a lot different then 90 degree sticks.

In the end it doesn't really matter to me how you build it. Its not mine. I was trying to converse with you over it but you don't want too. The fact that the OP is so vague, questions are going to come up. If you didn't want to talk about it you should have just ignored my second post. I'm done here. Sorry to have bothered you.

So again, take care. I'm out. Peace.
 
A total of 90 gallons of water (40 boil and 50 to start a new batch)

90 x 8.34 = 750.6 pounds of water
PLUS
70 pounds of grain
PLUS
90-120 pounds of kettle, give or take...

That is 910 pounds total across 4 beams. With 2/3 of it resting squarely over the casters even if it is a 4 caster stand.

The OP is also very clear that while the general design is set, the final build is still quite flexible. Nothing is set in stone except the # of kettles, HERMS, BCS, volume and wattage. That is really about it.

Like most of my builds, it will probably crumble or catch fire ;) But it is worth a shot!
 
willynilly said:
This thread will loosely follow a 1BBL brewery that I am constructing, one of several. Though some of the design specifics are flexible, much of the design and parts list are chosen.
Click to expand...

This is key... which is why BB and I have been having a thoughtful discussion about the NEMA4X enclosure. The end user has specific design requirements, how we get there, is flexible.
 
willynilly said:
March already makes a pump that flows fast enough, with a SS head, but it is $1600. What March are you looking at using? I would be using the 5- pump from them.

The standard 809 pumps have a flow of 270 GPH at 1' head.

The 5- pumps exceed 1000 GPH at a 1' head.

Once you figure in your resistance, the March 809 flows at about 2 GPM which IMHO is way too slow for something this size. For what these guys are paying, they really deserve fast transfers.
Click to expand...

I am looking at the march ac-5c-md pumps. I'm looking at getting two, if I can solve the head issue
 
willynilly said:
March already makes a pump that flows fast enough, with a SS head, but it is $1600. What March are you looking at using? I would be using the 5- pump from them.

The standard 809 pumps have a flow of 270 GPH at 1' head.

The 5- pumps exceed 1000 GPH at a 1' head.

Once you figure in your resistance, the March 809 flows at about 2 GPM which IMHO is way too slow for something this size. For what these guys are paying, they really deserve fast transfers.
Click to expand...

I am looking at the march ac-5c-md pumps. I'm looking at getting two, if I can solve the head issue
 
Gave the buyers the boot... for a myriad of reasons.

This will be built and funded by me, for me... for the fun of building. I will sell it later probably.
 
BrewBeemer said:
No you didn't, it's coming out better than you expected and you decided to keep it instead. LOL!
Click to expand...

Actually, after doing some re-thinking this week, there is a cool change... but that is for later.

The basics are still the same, just found a different way, more eff. way, to get from point A to point B.

Re-vamping the master parts list tonight to see where the cost comes out. I can tell you though, it is less than a BrewMagic and way, way cooler :D

I will build this out of my pocket, if I can sell it later, cool... if not, oh well I own a 1BBL brewery! This is a hobby, I enjoy building.
 
willynilly said:
Actually, after doing some re-thinking this week, there is a cool change... but that is for later.

The basics are still the same, just found a different way, more eff. way, to get from point A to point B.

Re-vamping the master parts list tonight to see where the cost comes out. I can tell you though, it is less than a BrewMagic and way, way cooler :D

I will build this out of my pocket, if I can sell it later, cool... if not, oh well I own a 1BBL brewery! This is a hobby, I enjoy building.
Click to expand...

Way to go! Keep us posted, and most of all, have fun!
 
Okay, okay... I lied, it came out to $17.46 MORE than the 10 gallon BrewMagic.

But, it is shinier, 3-4x the volume and fully E-brew friendly! You are looking at about $5 in electric per 1BBL session start to finish. :ban:

30 gallons of strike water 60F to 165 in 44 minutes... that aint too shabby.

It will also feature a CLT, cold liquor tank.
 
Kauai_Kahuna said:
Desperate for pictures, PLEASE!
Sounds like a jaw dropping rig, please keep us up to date.
Click to expand...

I will post photos when I have something to post. I just reconciled the massive parts list (down to the screws for the SSRs) last night. This is a build of great proportions, it is going to take me months to complete if I dont want to burn out on it.

It will be unique, I call it my "Synergy Series" of breweries :D
 
pickles said:
What size tubing/hose will you be using with those pumps? In a quick search I found one with 1/2" MNPT outlet. Is 1/2" enough flow?
Click to expand...

I actually changed this, this week. All plumbing will be full 3/4" tubing and connectors. I dont want to choke those sweet pumps. The pumps are rated at 1050 GPH with the 1/2" outlet, but I want to lessen my inlet and outlet restrictions as much as I can, within reason.

It will no longer be a HERMS, it will be a 11000W RIMS, with on demand sparge water heating capability. The HLT, will be a CLT... I wont waste energy keeping a huge tank of water hot. I also will not lose a drop of that sweet wort that would get trapped in that plumbing. The OP is updated... this is a design in progress. My last system did not sell at our neighborhood garage sale, maybe this one will ;)



I calculate that it would take me 6-7 weeks to build this thing, so I am going to double that and call it 12-14 weeks. For now.
 
Two tests down...

I have run (2) 5 gallon batches, and although the RIMS outlet temp. oscillates 10F during the process (per the temp display) the 5 gallons from each batch are within .3F using a digital, calibrated thermometer.

I am going to do a few more batches of sparge water and play with the PID tuning, but thus far the smaller, 9000W RIMS is giving me .6gal/min at 165F from a cold tank. Oscillations aside, what matters is the batch temp. and that is dead on.
 
Been manually tuning the BCS PID today... time consuming, but I have nothing but time.

The data log is nice, because I can set parameters, go do something, come back and see what it has done the past 60 minues or so.

So far, so good... the RIMS settings are tweaked to hold +-.25F on the MLT output and -.5 +3F on the RIMS outlet temp.

The tricky part is that the heating element is still hot after the power is removed, so it is still heating the RIMS tube even when the signal is gone.

When I started, the RIMS outlet overshoot was 10F!
 
Great job on the PID tuning. Can you post your PID coefficients? I'm sure that other BCS users with similar setups would find them beneficial as a starting point for their own systems.
 
eccsynd said:
Great job on the PID tuning. Can you post your PID coefficients? I'm sure that other BCS users with similar setups would find them beneficial as a starting point for their own systems.
Click to expand...

P=10000
I=30
D=5000

PID Sample time is .1 sec
PID Differential temp. is 0F

This is giving me 2-5F overshoots at the RIMS outlet, mainly because when you stop firing a 4500W element, you have residual heat coming from that element. Basically I have a really fast acting process and one which still produces heat after it is stopped... so I am surprised I have gotten it nailed down this well.

However, using data log I can watch the overshoots over time and the MLT temp. over time and the MLT temp. is steady +/-.25F. Data logging ROCKS!!

Now, this testing has led me to another design for my new RIMS heaters.

(2) HWD 5500W elements for HOT WATER HEATING
(1) LWD 4500W element run on 120VAC for RIMS heating (read less residual!!)

With less residual from a low wattage ULWD element during simple RIMS operation I can get the tolerances even tighter.

When heating sparge water or strike it will utilize the (2) HWD 5500W elements ;)

Yes, a triple element RIMS baby.

Optimized for both RIMS operation and water heating.
 
BrewBeemer said:
Post 'em pictures with a materials list would be cool.
I have 4 SS 55 drums in storage, a possible group build.
Click to expand...


Carl I just got my drums in the mail the other day 4 of them. I ordered the fittings, Panel Thermometers, and rtd's today.


I am going to be building a similar setup. 6 5500w elements in 2 drums. I am not putting them on a stand. My buddy is helping me on this one. He is building small stands with wheels for each drum, so they can be moved around individually. Plus I want to be able to stand on the floor when I brew, not a ladder.

There will be a fairly big stand to go in front of the barrels. This will house my control panel, electrical, and pumps. Then half of it will be a nice butcher block wood top work surface. This build is going to go fast. It is fully funded and needs to be done in 1 1/2 months.
 
I'll be watching your progress you lucky dog, it looks like you already have it well planned out. I'm jealous I don't have the space for such a large project not alone can afford the material build cost. The wifey would shoot me dead dead in a heartbeat adding more "future needed brewing items" LOL! At 4-500 pounds a barrel make damn sure you have rather large high quality casters on your barrel frames.
Wow, 16,500 watts per drum now that's some amperage needing a 80 amp breaker feeding each drum not counting pumps and controller. Tap off your neighbors main then your good to go.
 
We run a double Peristaltic pump at about 15 gpm with ½ silicon tubing for our 1bb system.
Sparging is a walk in the park
Sanitation is a piece of cake. You just take all your tubing and sanitize in your preferred way and visually inspect it. You can pull and push your hot wart, around without any worry. We even use it to aerate the Conicals (3) 48 gallon Blichmanns

Sounds like a great build and I look forward to seeing some phots.
 
Has there been any more progress on this build? I'm at the information gathering stage of an AG build (10gal) so I am very interested in any/ all system details you are willing to share.;)
 
willynilly said:
Gave the buyers the boot... for a myriad of reasons.

This will be built and funded by me, for me... for the fun of building. I will sell it later probably.
Click to expand...

As the buyers who got the boot (for a myriad of reasons), How did the system turn out Rob?
 

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