Cigar City Tocobaga Red Ale Recipe

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No problem, if you come up with a recipe post it. I'd love to try and clone that one, its a great beer.
 
tjohn said:
No problem, if you come up with a recipe post it. I'd love to try and clone that one, its a great beer.

Will do. I've already sent the email.
 
This what I got through email tonight:

Thanks for your interest but I did not write that recipe.

I have copied Tim Ogden, the brewer that designed and developed the recipe of which you speak.

I will leave it up to him to share the recipe or give you tips on the production of this most excellent beer.

Cheers,
Wayne Wambles
Brewmaster
Cigar City Brewing
[email protected]
 
Hope he is willing to throw a couple tips our way because Tocobaga is a great beer. I spent alot of time working on a Jai Alai clone, so this piqued my interest for sure. CCB is the tits, I wish they distributed here in VA. I did have the pleasure of visiting CCB and doing a tour back in May (it was awesome). Their tap list is the size of a menu at a greasy spoon diner. Interesting that its not Waynes recipe.
 
I got a response from Tim Ogden, who developed the recipe.

Brandon

Sorry for the delayed response.

Homebrewing has always been about experimentation to me, this is where the most learning comes. Recipes are only a part of the equation. So I will give you the complete concept and hope you find a playground to work with to make a beer you very much enjoy.

The OG of this beer falls in the dead zone in the world beer cup guidelines between American Amber and Imperial Red/ Amber. The IBUs land squarely in the center of the imperial style. The Hops are American, with a clean bittering hop, grassy floral hops at 30 minutes, dank and tropical hops at whirlpool, and heavy amounts between 30 and wp. Most of the IBUs are from late hopping. Also dry hopped with citra.

The grist uses 2 row barley and heavy amounts of munich and Vienna malt, a clean caramel 60L, and some chocolate for color. I boil 90 minutes to develop color.

Ferment on the cool side with an English ale yeast, and aerate modestly.

I hope you find this info useful, both in brewing a beer you are proud of and in honing your skills in recipe formulation. Please feel free to contact me with any further questions.

Cheers!
-tim
 
With this info, the info on the brewery website and some other various discoveries, I'm working on developing a recipe. It will be my first attempt at designing so any feedback will be appreciated. I have most of it done just working on finishing hop selection and schedule. I know from a previous brewing network podcast that CCB uses the wyeast Thames Valley strain for their house yeast. So I assume that would be a good one try. Also found a dry hop schedule in the brewery during a tour. I'll post my attempt soon.

image-2053882307.jpg
 
FLBrew said:
With this info, the info on the brewery website and some other various discoveries, I'm working on developing a recipe. It will be my first attempt at designing so any feedback will be appreciated. I have most of it done just working on finishing hop selection and schedule. I know from a previous brewing network podcast that CCB uses the wyeast Thames Valley strain for their house yeast. So I assume that would be a good one try. Also found a dry hop schedule in the brewery during a tour. I'll post my attempt soon.

According to my calc. Comes out to 1.25 oz. of Citra for dry hop.
 
I believe CCB switched over to Wyeast 1968 in the last couple years FWIW. The 1275 was their old house yeast so probably either would be fine. I calculate 1.14 oz on the dry hop, but I'm thinkin that seems low for our purposes. Its possible that they do multiple additions of that quantity as they do with the Jai Alai. Really like where this is headed though, good work. How did you get that picture without getting your hand chopped off?
 
Yeah I thought the tour guide may say something. But got away with it. Also have a pic of their carb rates. So this is what I have so far.

image-869967651.jpg


image-2853519724.jpg
 
I think that 4lbs of munich and vienna is probably a bit too much. Its also a 90 minute boil so that will affect the color as well. I might try something like this.

90min boil
OG 1.080
FG 1.025

9lbs-2-row
2.25lbs-munich
2.25lbs-vienna
1lb-60l
.25lb-pale chocolate

Wyeast 1968-London ESB

.5oz Columbus @60min
.75oz Centennial @30min
1oz Amarillo @15min
1oz Cascade @15min
1oz Amarillo @5min
1oz Citra @5min
2oz Citra dry hop for 7 days

@ 75% efficiency that give us the 7.2% abv that the CCB website calls for. The IBUs come in at 76 (CCB website calls for 75). Color is a couple shades too dark, I will work on that and the hop schedule as we go along. You could certainly add some hops at flameout to increase your aroma. I chose 2oz of citra for the dry hop simply because if I have to buy 2oz of citra I might as well use it. Lemme know what you think and we can make some adjustments.
 
This looks like a good place to start. Maybe I'll send a copy to Tim and just ask if anything stands out that he would change. Then I'll get to brewing. I'll def send a couple bottles to you to try. Thanks for the help.
 
That was a quick response.

Looks like its time to try it. Now I just need the time. Doesn't look good through the next 3 weeks.

image-1134935935.jpg
 
bulldogbrewhaus said:
I think that 4lbs of munich and vienna is probably a bit too much. Its also a 90 minute boil so that will affect the color as well. I might try something like this.

90min boil
OG 1.080
FG 1.025

9lbs-2-row
2.25lbs-munich
2.25lbs-vienna
1lb-60l
.25lb-pale chocolate

Wyeast 1968-London ESB

.5oz Columbus @60min
.75oz Centennial @30min
1oz Amarillo @15min
1oz Cascade @15min
1oz Amarillo @5min
1oz Citra @5min
2oz Citra dry hop for 7 days

@ 75% efficiency that give us the 7.2% abv that the CCB website calls for. The IBUs come in at 76 (CCB website calls for 75). Color is a couple shades too dark, I will work on that and the hop schedule as we go along. You could certainly add some hops at flameout to increase your aroma. I chose 2oz of citra for the dry hop simply because if I have to buy 2oz of citra I might as well use it. Lemme know what you think and we can make some adjustments.

Ok after I entered your numbers into beersmith, I was falling short on IBU's and over on srm. This is what I have after making some adjustments. I may have to alter the hops if the AA's are different when I purchase them. But this gives us right OG, IBU and SRM.

image-2937864822.jpg


image-2237302240.jpg
 
Actually a little short on IBU but I think it will be ok.
 
I think we are starting to get somewhere with this one. I knew I was a little off on the color and hops, your adjustments look good. I think you could probably use a little more chocolate malt if you go for the pale chocolate vs. the regular. The color difference is fairly significant. Good work all around, the guys at CCB are really cool. I had the pleasure of visiting the brewery in May, you are fortunate to live close. I might have time to brew this in the next couple weeks. Cheers.
 
Haven't posted on this thread for a while but that recipe looks like a great start to me. I visited back in May also and loved this beer. I recall it being very drinkable and I didn't get much of that malt backbone you'll find in some reds so 2lbs on vienna and munich should be spot on. The main thing I remember was huge citra aroma and flavor. Can't wait to hear how this turns out. I cloned their maduro brown (another on of their great beers) back in Jan, Wayne helped me out with the ingredients and I figured out the % of each. The beer was pretty spot on all around, let me know if anyone is interested in trying out that recipe as well.
 
tjohn said:
Haven't posted on this thread for a while but that recipe looks like a great start to me. I visited back in May also and loved this beer. I recall it being very drinkable and I didn't get much of that malt backbone you'll find in some reds so 2lbs on vienna and munich should be spot on. The main thing I remember was huge citra aroma and flavor. Can't wait to hear how this turns out. I cloned their maduro brown (another on of their great beers) back in Jan, Wayne helped me out with the ingredients and I figured out the % of each. The beer was pretty spot on all around, let me know if anyone is interested in trying out that recipe as well.

Yes, I would definitely like the Maduro clone recipe. That's another on of my favorites. Maybe I'll split the batch and try their vanilla Maduro too!
 
Ordering ingredients today since my LHBS has Citra and Amarillo in stock. Hopefully I can get this brewed within the next couple weekends but definitely by the last weekend of the month when SWMBO goes out of town.
 
I cloned their maduro brown (another on of their great beers) back in Jan, Wayne helped me out with the ingredients and I figured out the % of each. The beer was pretty spot on all around, let me know if anyone is interested in trying out that recipe as well.

Yes please!
 
The first attempt went into the Carboy last night. Krausen has developed. Brew day went pretty well but I need to take a second and figure out my efficiency. According to beersmith, I should have hit 1.076 but ended up at 1.070. Other than that, the color and taste were great going into fermentation. I did a 2 liter starter with some light DME using stir plate for about 8 hours. It was actively fermenting when I pitched into the wort (brewing last night was a decision I made yesterday morning...I had to work until about 3:30 so I boiled the DME before I left in the morning and SWMBO finished the other steps of getting it started) 😁. So hopefully all goes well from here. It's a 64F right now and will sit at 67 for the next 5-7 days then Dry hopping with with the Citra and Amarillo.

image-1045389212.jpg
 
Primary fermentation was done yesterday after 36 hours. I hit 1.019. Problem is I sensed that cooked corn smell that I've heard and read about. This is my first experience with it but I think it's DMS. Based on how it could possibly retain in the beer, I'm thinking its because my kettle isn't big enough to allow a vigorous boil while doing a full volume boil. Anyone have any experience with this? I bumped the temp up to 70 from 67, yesterday in hopes that the yeast activity would help blow off more of the aroma before I dry hop.
 
Couple of notes for this thread, not exactly related to your questions though.

I found that CCB is currently using these yeasts in the 7BBL brew house: 3711, 1968, 2212, 2206.

And when I talked to Wayne about his dryhop technique, he says he does his secondary fermentation at 50-55. It creates a cleaner and more flavorful pickup from the hops. I used his older technique of cold (33F) dryhopping recently and the aromas and flavors are INTENSE!!!
 
TheJasonT said:
Couple of notes for this thread, not exactly related to your questions though.

I found that CCB is currently using these yeasts in the 7BBL brew house: 3711, 1968, 2212, 2206.

And when I talked to Wayne about his dryhop technique, he says he does his secondary fermentation at 50-55. It creates a cleaner and more flavorful pickup from the hops. I used his older technique of cold (33F) dryhopping recently and the aromas and flavors are INTENSE!!!

Thanks for the info. I can definitely do the colder dry hop. Cold crashing and dry hopping at the same time sounds like a timesaver. Did you have to leave them on longer due to the colder temperature? Or is the usual 3-7 days enough?
 
After I transferred to secondary at room temp, I added half of the dryhops, then dropped the temp 10F per day until 33, then I left it there for 8 days.
 
Update: after raising temp to 70 for a couple of days I still sensed some DMS. So the I cold crashed if for a couple of days. That seemed to help some so I transferred off of the yeast, hoping to leave behind any off flavors that the settled yeast could have been carrying. Then I added the dry hop addition and kept at 49F. It's been about 6 days. The dry hop aroma is intense. I'm excited to not smell any corn. Hoping it stays that way. Should be kegging within the next day or two.
 
Primary fermentation was done yesterday after 36 hours. I hit 1.019. Problem is I sensed that cooked corn smell that I've heard and read about. This is my first experience with it but I think it's DMS. Based on how it could possibly retain in the beer, I'm thinking its because my kettle isn't big enough to allow a vigorous boil while doing a full volume boil. Anyone have any experience with this? I bumped the temp up to 70 from 67, yesterday in hopes that the yeast activity would help blow off more of the aroma before I dry hop.

Controlling DMS – Summary

High DMS levels are most often perceived as a problem in light lagers such as Pilsner and many German lagers
Choose a 2 row pale malt (over 6 row) as a base malt to minimize SMM (a DMS precursor)
Very pale base malts (such as pilsner malt) tend to have higher SMM levels which drives higher DMS production
Avoid using corn as an adjunct with these beers, as it can enhance the creamed corn perception
Boil your wort for 90 minutes or longer with a vigorous rolling boil
Don’t cover your boil pot – leave it open so the DMS can evaporate during the boil
Minimize hot wort standing time by rapidly cooling your wort after the boil
Select a yeast and correct fermentation temperature to minimize DMS production
For many lagers, DMS aroma is normal during fermentation, but it should fade with time as you lager and age the beer

This is from the beersmith blogs. Seems like the Vienna is most likely the culprit here. I work at a local brewery and the head brewer told me that when he home brews he boils the first runnings as he is sparging and collecting the second runnings. You will lose some volume so you have to adjust for that but it will help with this problem and create depth of flavor and perhaps some color developement. How did the final product turn out?
 
bulldogbrewhaus said:
Controlling DMS – Summary High DMS levels are most often perceived as a problem in light lagers such as Pilsner and many German lagers Choose a 2 row pale malt (over 6 row) as a base malt to minimize SMM (a DMS precursor) Very pale base malts (such as pilsner malt) tend to have higher SMM levels which drives higher DMS production Avoid using corn as an adjunct with these beers, as it can enhance the creamed corn perception Boil your wort for 90 minutes or longer with a vigorous rolling boil Don’t cover your boil pot – leave it open so the DMS can evaporate during the boil Minimize hot wort standing time by rapidly cooling your wort after the boil Select a yeast and correct fermentation temperature to minimize DMS production For many lagers, DMS aroma is normal during fermentation, but it should fade with time as you lager and age the beer This is from the beersmith blogs. Seems like the Vienna is most likely the culprit here. I work at a local brewery and the head brewer told me that when he home brews he boils the first runnings as he is sparging and collecting the second runnings. You will lose some volume so you have to adjust for that but it will help with this problem and create depth of flavor and perhaps some color developement. How did the final product turn out?

So I forgot to update the post a while back...just emptied the keg this weekend. The beer turned out very good. Not quite Tocobaga though. I think the hops are there but I'm looking for a more toasty biscuit malt flavor. I was a able to talk to Tim at the Fall Beer festival but only for a second, so I wasn't able to get many tips. As far as the DMS, after raising temp for a couple days I cold crashed for about a week and tasted again...no signs of dms! I was happy with it so I continued with the dry hopping. I will definitely be making this again. I'm thinking of maybe adding some biscuit malt or increasing the Munich and Vienna. If anyone else makes this please let me know.
 
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