4 LHBS to choose from, 1 just took himself off the list

This just is a rant because I am a little perturbed. Looking for some validation that I am not wrong here.


First off, I have 4 LHBS that are all about equidistant away and I try to frequent them all because I want them all to stick around. They are all valuable to me because they are convenient in that I can stop at each of them coming from any direction and usually don't have to make special trips for anything.

With that said, I called a LHBS today for 1 pound of dme, which was perfect because a friend was driving by and offered to pick it up for me. I wanted to pay for the DME with a credit card so my friend did not have to. The owner of the store told me he would rather the friend pay with cash because running the card would cost him $.40 for a $4.80 cent item. I told him I understood this and asked him to tack on the $.40 cents plus a small fee if he wished. Again he said he would rather have my friend pay. Flustered I said fine and goodbye.

I checked my wallet and now realize that I am going to need to drive to the ATM to withdraw cash as I have none on me.

This doesn't add up for me. I called back and asked how much DME I would need to buy to let him charge my card, as I did not want to take a ride to the ATM. His reaction was to get mad and say "listen I need to make a profit here". I then tried to get a 3 pound bag and he wasn't going to let me buy it because he thought I was just getting it because of the credit card issue, at this point I really wanted the 3 pounds. I got frustrated and sternly told him give me 3 pounds and charge my card.


I feel like I know full well about profits and I feel like I have gone out of my way at times just to patronize this specific store, just to give him my business.

He knows me by name, I have spent a lot of money in his store.


Rant finished, am I nuts?

Nope. Life is too short to deal with bad service.

I have a local that I hated doing business with so much I'd buy bulk just to not have to deal with it often. Now, he's miraculously been replaced with an attractive blonde and it seems I may be there more often.

Nah. He needs to make a policy ($0.75 charge on anything under $10 or w/e) and stick to it or expect customers to get frustrated and leave.

Thank you.

It sucks because I did not hate doing business with him. But this was very aggrevating.

He sorta a hippy, he said something along the way about the credit card company making a profit.

I think the issue was either he did not feel like writing down the cc info and running it OR he has some overly passionate thoughts against credit card companies.

I don't have an issue with small stores charging extra for low dollar credit card purchases. On the other hand, I have a policy of asking for discounts if I pay for cash for large purchases. It is interesting that many stores will accept, or make a counter offer. I usually ask for 3%. If they say no, I use a credit card.

Actually, if I am not wrong, isn't it illegal to set a minimum purchase amount to use a credit card?

JorgeIsKing said:

Actually, if I am not wrong, isn't it illegal to set a minimum purchase amount to use a credit card?

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I really should have done this BEFORE posting, but some quick google-fu came up with this:

http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/merchants-who-violate-credit-card-terms-1275.php

Apparently it's not really illegal, but against their agreement with the credit card companies.

If you really wanted to be vindictive, you could contact the credit card company.

Tell him thank you, you'll go to one of the other 3 shops withing 3 minutes and buy it then. because they're not picky about how their customers give them their business.

sacrifice said:

I don't have an issue with small stores charging extra for low dollar credit card purchases. On the other hand, I have a policy of asking for discounts if I pay for cash for large purchases. It is interesting that many stores will accept, or make a counter offer. I usually ask for 3%. If they say no, I use a credit card.

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Interesting.

Actually, if I am not wrong, isn't it illegal to set a minimum purchase amount to use a credit card?

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There are a lot of places by me that have minimum amount before you can use a card. Also, most gas stations have 2 prices one for cash and one for credit.

JorgeIsKing said:

If you really wanted to be vindictive, you could contact the credit card company.

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Not worth it. I'll take the high road I think.

Tell him thank you, you'll go to one of the other 3 shops withing 3 minutes and buy it then. because they're not picky about how their customers give them their business.

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Thank you is all I will say. I am buying from him multiple times per month. He will figure out I'm not around sooner than later.

Wow, you're ACTUALLY pissed off about this?

A lot of gas stations and even restaurants in Michigan do the same thing, set a minimum cost (usually 10 dollars) on Credit card purchases. Since it actually costs THEM money to run CC's and that can add up, especially for a small business struggling to make it. All those 60 cent fees add up over a month, and if their stock and trade are gegaws and widgets that don't cost all that much (I've bought just a 1.50 dollar stopper on a lhbs trip once) can hurt.

I know one LHBS in metro detroit, that kinds says the same, would rather you pay cash for you 1.99 packet of bottle caps, or 2 dollar packet of yeast. They don't make a big stink about it. They'd still run the card. But they once asked me to do the same thing for a minor purchase, and did say that it does cost them. I felt bad, since the reason I was putting it on my card WAS because I didn't have enough cash, so to make it better for them, I got a couple more small things to get the tab above 10.00.

Since I want them to survive, I didn't make a big stink about it. They are great folks, and in Michigan's economy they have to do what they have to do.

*shrug*

I guess it's all a matter of perspective...but I would have gone above the minimum that they said they'd run it for you...

So is the charge a flat percent? Or is there a minimum that the credit card companies charge per transaction? Is this the same for debit vs. credit?

Sorry, kind of OT, but I have run into similar issues as I never carry cash. But, yeah, vote with your dollars. You should make sure he knows you aren't coming back. Sometimes small busines owners are shielded b/c they are owner and operator, but just like you can't have an employee being a jerk to a customer, neither can you.

Revvy said:

Wow, you're ACTUALLY pissed off about this?

A lot of gas stations and even restaurants in Michigan do the same thing, set a minimum cost (usually 10 dollars) on Credit card purchases. Since it actually costs THEM money to run CC's and that can add up, especially for a small business struggling to make it. All those 60 cent fees add up over a month, and if their stock and trade are gegaws and widgets that don't cost all that much (I've bought just a 1.50 dollar stopper on a lhbs trip once) can hurt.

I know one LHBS in metro detroit, that kinds says the same, would rather you pay cash for you 1.99 packet of bottle caps, or 2 dollar packet of yeast. They don't make a big stink about it. They'd still run the card. But they once asked me to do the same thing for a minor purchase, and did say that it does cost them. I felt bad, since the reason I was putting it on my card WAS because I didn't have enough cash, so to make it better for them, I got a couple more small things to get the tab above 10.00.

Since I want them to survive, I didn't make a big stink about it. They are great folks, and in Michigan's economy they have to do what they have to do.

*shrug*

I guess it's all a matter of perspective...but I would have gone above the minimum that they said they'd run it for you...

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It didn't seem to be so much about the minimum, he offered to order more DME to bring it up to whatever minimum they had, and the shop owner got an attitude with him.

IrregularPulse said:

It didn't seem to be so much about the minimum, he offered to order more DME to bring it up to whatever minimum they had, and the shop owner got an attitude with him.

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No he didn't the OP said this...

The owner of the store told me he would rather the friend pay with cash because running the card would cost him $.40 for a $4.80 cent item. I told him I understood this and asked him to tack on the $.40 cents plus a small fee if he wished. Again he said he would rather have my friend pay. Flustered I said fine and goodbye.

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That's really NOT the same imho, as finding out the credit minimum and paying it. That sounds more like, "fix it for me and here's a tip for you." And that sounds a little insulting to me.

Revvy said:

I guess it's all a matter of perspective...but I would have gone above the minimum that they said they'd run it for you...

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It looks like he tried:

rtt121 said:

I called back and asked how much DME I would need to buy to let him charge my card, as I did not want to take a ride to the ATM. His reaction was to get mad and say "listen I need to make a profit here".

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What I don't understand is why it makes a difference to the vendor if he's being charged a percentage of sales.

I mean let's say a vendor pays 3% per transaction. He sets a $10 minimum to "make a profit here". A person charges $10, the vendor pays $0.30.

What if he hadn't set the minimum and had 10, $1 sales? He'd pay $0.03 per sale.

Quick math? That's the same $0.30. And he'd probably get more sales overall by allowing the charges in the first place. And not anger his customers.

Now if it's a flat per-transaction fee PLUS a percentage (like Paypal) that's something different. But I don't think CC companies do that.

-Joe

IrregularPulse said:

It didn't seem to be so much about the minimum, he offered to order more DME to bring it up to whatever minimum they had, and the shop owner got an attitude with him.

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+1 Seems likely to me the keep didn't want to run it over the phone. And that is just lazy.

I am okay with the min charge. Fact is, I use my CC like a debit card and rarely carry cash at all.

nostalgia said:

It looks like he tried:



What I don't understand is why it makes a difference to the vendor if he's being charged a percentage of sales.

I mean let's say a vendor pays 3% per transaction. He sets a $10 minimum to "make a profit here". A person charges $10, the vendor pays $0.30.

What if he hadn't set the minimum and had 10, $1 sales? He'd pay $0.03 per sale.

Quick math? That's the same $0.30. And he'd probably get more sales overall by allowing the charges in the first place. And not anger his customers.

Now if it's a flat per-transaction fee PLUS a percentage (like Paypal) that's something different. But I don't think CC companies do that.

-Joe

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some do. IIRC, Discover does a flat fee per block of transactions. Thus, the fee is higher the lower the number of transactions and oft times the shop keep pays that out of the profits.

At least, this is the way it is explained to me often as to why a shop opts out of taking Discover.

Ah, it does appear there is a per-transaction fee (looks like around $0.25 / transaction).

So I can see the owner wanting to set a minimum (even if I don't agree with it. I'd rather have happy customers than an extra 25c). It should be clearly posted somewhere, though.

-Joe

Revvy said:

No he didn't the OP said this...

The owner of the store told me he would rather the friend pay with cash because running the card would cost him $.40 for a $4.80 cent item. I told him I understood this and asked him to tack on the $.40 cents plus a small fee if he wished. Again he said he would rather have my friend pay. Flustered I said fine and goodbye.


That's really NOT the same imho, as finding out the credit minimum and paying it. That sounds more like, "fix it for me and here's a tip for you." And that sounds a little insulting to me.

Click to expand...

Admittedly I did not think he could react this way, maybe he did, though I truly did not try to come off that way. I manage a small business and I tried to come off as I completely understand, let me take care of the fee.



He does not have a set/posted minimum credit card amount.

Also, on the second call I did ask to simply raise the amount of DME, he took this as "I know this guy does not want this much DME, now I feel like a heel" but in fact I did want this much at that point and we started to go back and forth a little.

Revvy said:

Wow, you're ACTUALLY pissed off about this?

A lot of gas stations and even restaurants in Michigan do the same thing, set a minimum cost (usually 10 dollars) on Credit card purchases. Since it actually costs THEM money to run CC's and that can add up, especially for a small business struggling to make it. All those 60 cent fees add up over a month, and if their stock and trade are gegaws and widgets that don't cost all that much (I've bought just a 1.50 dollar stopper on a lhbs trip once) can hurt.

I know one LHBS in metro detroit, that kinds says the same, would rather you pay cash for you 1.99 packet of bottle caps, or 2 dollar packet of yeast. They don't make a big stink about it. They'd still run the card. But they once asked me to do the same thing for a minor purchase, and did say that it does cost them. I felt bad, since the reason I was putting it on my card WAS because I didn't have enough cash, so to make it better for them, I got a couple more small things to get the tab above 10.00.

Since I want them to survive, I didn't make a big stink about it. They are great folks, and in Michigan's economy they have to do what they have to do.

*shrug*

I guess it's all a matter of perspective...but I would have gone above the minimum that they said they'd run it for you...

Click to expand...

That is ridiculous. He offered to pay the costs of the CC transation. Store owner didn't like that. He then offered to buy more, as to be above a minimum purchase amount. Both are resonable solutions. The shop doesn't want his bussiness.

My LHBS actually gives discounts to customers who pay in cash because it saves them the hastle of credit card fees. As far as I know, they do not have a "minimum charge" to use your credit card.

Revvy said:

No he didn't the OP said this...



That's really NOT the same imho, as finding out the credit minimum and paying it. That sounds more like, "fix it for me and here's a tip for you." And that sounds a little insulting to me.

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No, he said charge me the 40 cents the cc company is charging you, I don't mind paying the fee. Not a "tip" and not insulting.

Maybe his credit card privileges with his bank were revoked or suspended or something and he couldn't take it and didn't want to say??

Or...maybe he just sucks at dealing with the public.

Maybe he was having a bad day. Is he typically a pissy fellow?

Frodo said:

Maybe he was having a bad day. Is he typically a pissy fellow?

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Nah he has not been pissy. But he has screwed up before, shipping me someone else's order and then not remembering it when I came in a few days later looking for my stuff.

That's not good... Maybe he's been screwing up enough that now his balance sheet aint looking so good, and he's on the fringe of losing the business. That might explain the worry about $0.40 when you've spent a fair amount of money there already. OR maybe he just hasn't had enough sex lately...?

SWMBO cut him off??

nostalgia said:

It looks like he tried:



What I don't understand is why it makes a difference to the vendor if he's being charged a percentage of sales.

I mean let's say a vendor pays 3% per transaction. He sets a $10 minimum to "make a profit here". A person charges $10, the vendor pays $0.30.

What if he hadn't set the minimum and had 10, $1 sales? He'd pay $0.03 per sale.

Quick math? That's the same $0.30. And he'd probably get more sales overall by allowing the charges in the first place. And not anger his customers.

Now if it's a flat per-transaction fee PLUS a percentage (like Paypal) that's something different. But I don't think CC companies do that.

-Joe

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Yes, they do. It depends on your merchant account. Some are flat rate, some are percentage, some are a blend, it's actually pretty complicated.

If he is only paying 40 cents for a transaction, he's doing well. I was paying $1.05 plus 2.9% before I closed my merchant account. I never use a credit or debit card for less than $10.

david_42 said:

If he is only paying 40 cents for a transaction, he's doing well. I was paying $1.05 plus 2.9% before I closed my merchant account. I never use a credit or debit card for less than $10.

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I don't mind using debit for low amounts, my understanding is that the fee is considerably lower since the potential liability of fraud is lower.

Maybe he was just leary of taking a card over the phone. There is a lot of fraud out there, so someone calling saying "I'll pay with a card and someone else will pick it up" may have just seemed fishy to him. Even if it was just a $4 bag of dme, he would have to eat it if it was fraud.

I have a small online side business and have had plenty of fraud attempts like this. People will sometimes email me not wanting to pay with paypal, or just wanting to pay directly to me over the phone. I've declined sales like this at times because it just seemed fishy.

I've also had items purchased and paid for with paypal, then a short time later had the funds held by paypal if fraud is suspected. Nearly every time paypal did this, it did in fact end up being fraud, and saved me a major headache.

Just a guess at what may have been going on with him.

Or he's just a dick.

Fletch78 said:

Yes, they do. It depends on your merchant account. Some are flat rate, some are percentage, some are a blend, it's actually pretty complicated.

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That's an understatement. This bit of info for those that don't know how this works..... When a merchant takes your card, they have absolutely no protection from a chargeback. Getting an authorization, having an AVS match, etc. are only tools to allow a merchant to decide whether to accept the transaction - it does not guarantee the transaction. If the customer issues a chargeback through their bank, it is up to the merchant to prove that the customer did in fact make the transaction.

The fact that the OP was going to use the card over the phone and have someone else pick it up leaves the merchant open to a chargeback that they absolutely cannot fight.

JonW said:

That's an understatement. This bit of info for those that don't know how this works..... When a merchant takes your card, they have absolutely no protection from a chargeback. Getting an authorization, having an AVS match, etc. are only tools to allow a merchant to decide whether to accept the transaction - it does not guarantee the transaction. If the customer issues a chargeback through their bank, it is up to the merchant to prove that the customer did in fact make the transaction.

The fact that the OP was going to use the card over the phone and have someone else pick it up leaves the merchant open to a chargeback that they absolutely cannot fight.

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Fine, then tell the customer that you cannot take over the phone CC payment because of fraud/chargebacks. Lying and saying it is for a different reason will piss off customers. See above.

I think I'm with Revvy on this one. The OP said he got "flustered"--maybe the LHBS dude did too. Then you both got into this ****ty situation where you're arguing over 1-3 pounds of DME and no one comes out a winner. If the guy runs a good shop and is generally a good guy, is this the hill you want to die on?

When I was a kid, my dad started getting into arguments with Cable companies over their lousy service. You know what happened? We ended up with 50 channels of snow.

That explains a lot....like why I don't have cable.

I would be extremely suspicious if someone local wanted to pay with a credit card but have their friend pick it up. Would appear the CC was stolen.

One of the financial reform bills that was recently passed now allows merchants to have credit card minimums.

Regarding stolen cards and having the friend pick up, I have done this many times as he is on my friends way home from work. I have been in the store many times.. he knows me by name and face and voice. I have phone ordered with him a dozen times with a credit card. That was not the issue here.

Just got back from picking up the DME at my buddies. Turns out he talked to him about if this happens again he would rather him pay cash as he does not LIKE credit cards.

I don't like animals but I work at the zoo. *

Yambor44 said:

No, he said charge me the 40 cents the cc company is charging you, I don't mind paying the fee. Not a "tip" and not insulting.

Maybe his credit card privileges with his bank were revoked or suspended or something and he couldn't take it and didn't want to say??

Or...maybe he just sucks at dealing with the public.

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RDWHAHB said:

That is ridiculous. He offered to pay the costs of the CC transation. Store owner didn't like that. He then offered to buy more, as to be above a minimum purchase amount. Both are resonable solutions. The shop doesn't want his bussiness.

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So how does he juggle his books, his inventory, square it with the credit company and his accountant for trying to accomodate the "tip" you were willing to give him, whether you call it a service charge or not?

This is the 21st century, every transaction has to have a trail, especially where credit comes into play. It's not like he rolls up his slevve, opens his dusty ledger, lick his pencil and put whatever price he wants in the sale column, and know at tax time what that line in the book REALLY means.

His inventory lists the price of DME at for example 5.00... he can't Just suddenly run it through for $5.40 to cover the service fee, or like you said "add a little more for your trouble," or whatever you said. So let's say he decides to take 2.00 more from you like you suggested, on top of the 40 cents. How does it square with the credit card company and the reciept? It shows that the DME is 5 bucks a pound, NOT 7.40, so someone is going to think that he is padding folks credit card bills, a nickle here or there.

How does it square with the inventory? Is his computerized, he can't just say he charged you 5 bucks for DME, and 2.40 for bottle caps that you didn't receive. His drawer isn't going to jibe with his inventory doing that. AND if he makes this a regular policy, to make all his customers happy for a couple of dollars, then he's going to spend more time adjusting his books and his inventory to accommodate these little "favors."

Like I said this is SOP in Michigan. Heck I don't know where you all live but in Metro Detroit it costs more at the pump to use our credit and debit cars that to pay for the same amount of gas with cash, I've seen it as high as 10-20 cents A GALLON.

This article in USA today explains it...and its not JUST gas stations who get hosed, it's all merchants with credit machines.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/smallbusiness/2008-07-07-gas-prices-credit-card-fees_N.htm

Credit card fees eat up gas station profits

Rising gas prices have not only punished consumers. Increasingly, they're also squeezing many gas-station owners.

As gas prices have jumped, station owners' profit margins have shrunk because they now must pay higher fees to credit card companies to process payments. Those fees are so high, says the National Association of Convenience Stores, that they've slashed already slim profit margins and made it hard for stations to make money on gas sales.

If they can't turn a profit at the pump, station owners say, they may have to ask drivers to share the financial burden — in the form of higher prices for convenience-store sundries such as drinks and candy. And some gas stations have just stopped accepting credit card payments.

In 2007, credit card fees cost convenience stores $7.6 billion — more than double the convenience store industry's profits, the National Association of Convenience Stores says. Most of the card fees come from gas sales, says spokesman Jeff Lenard.

When a driver pays for gas with a credit card, retailers must pay an average 2.5% of the sale price to process it, the association says. With gas prices exceeding $4 a gallon, business owners are paying more than 10 cents a gallon, on average, for each card transaction. That nearly consumes what the Oil Price Information Service says was station owners' average of 12 cents a gallon in gross profit over the past month.

As gas prices rise, many station owners say they've had to lower their profit margin per gallon to try to attract more customers.

Peter Madigan, executive director of the Electronic Payments Coalition, representing card companies, says, "There's a cost associated with electronic payments." Processing rates, he adds, are based on the cards' "value" to merchants as well as banks' exposure to loss if a sale is fraudulent.....

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And I'm sure the LHBS is smaller in sales, especially on a daily basis, than the smallest mom and pop gas station in podunk. Don't forget, as gas prices went up, so does his costs to even get the DME to the stores for him to even have on hand for your friend to pick up for you.

I mean, we're not talking walmart here, or megamart homebrew empire (if there ever was one) we're talking more like Joe's Homebrew and bait shop....Heck my friend Todd's shop is the side room of his printing business, which he can't get rid of, as much as he'd love to just run the LHBS, it doesn't even cover the rent most of the time.

That's why I can see his side, and think most of you are over reacting, calling him a crook, or saying he's a bad business man, he's just a poor schlub trying to survive.

I have friends who own lhbs, some are no more than the closet in the back of their other business, they're not raking in the Benjamins. They do it for the love of the hobby, not because they expect a mansion on a hill when they retire.

Like I said, my first reflex then is to find out what the minimum is and buy over that amount even if it was one penny more. I would have just bought the next size bag of DME, honestly it's not like I'm not going to be making starters for years and years.

I don't think either of you maybe handled it all that well. He should have said simply "our policy is cash for purchases under x dollars is our policy, and give you the option to buy more.

*shrug*

JorgeIsKing said:

Actually, if I am not wrong, isn't it illegal to set a minimum purchase amount to use a credit card?

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You are not allowed to charge a card fee if that is your only accepted payment. If you accept cash or check it is ok.