WLP300 hefeweizen, too clean

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ipsiad

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Veteran weizen brewers, I need your input! This was my first hefeweizen, so I kept it simple - 50% wheat, 50% pils, single infusion mash at 152F, 1.050 OG, 15 IBU. I added Wyeast nutrient to the boil. Chilled the wort to ~58F, oxygenated with 60 sec of O2, pitched WLP300, and set temp control for 62F (per Brewing Classic Styles). My pitching rate might have been low by about 25% according to MrMalty numbers, but I didn't do a cell count.

I followed my normal ale fermentation schedule. I held it at 62F for a week, after which the gravity was ~1.012, then raised it to 68F over 3 days (gravity=1.010) and held it there for 3 more (gravity=1.010). For most beers I'd leave the beer in primary for another week but I needed the fermentation chamber space so I kegged it at this point, which was a mistake because that left a hint of sulfur in the beer.

But the sulfur isn't the main problem. The problem is the beer is really clean, almost like an American wheat - much much cleaner than any hefeweizen I've ever had. It's tasty and refreshing, but I'm disappointed in the total lack of hefe character. I knew the esters would be restrained with the cool fermentation (that's what I was aiming for) but there's almost zero banana or clove flavor. I was actually concerned the banana esters would be higher than I wanted because of the underpitching, but I got the opposite result.

This is my first time using WLP300. Has anyone else experienced this? I feel like I mostly followed what lots of people say they do with good results. But then, there's another set of people that say you want to beat the hell out of the yeast: under-pitch, under-aerate, ferment hot, call the yeast names, etc., and that's how you get a good hefe. Maybe I should try that next.

Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.
 
when brewing heff, if you want more banana character you have to stress the yeast, which means under pitch the yeast. I also ferment at 70f, seems to finish around 1.002-5.
 
I'd just ferment a few degrees warmer next time, like 66. See if you like the outcome and go from there. That small bump in temp should get you the banana/clove esters you are looking for but not have them be too overpowering.
 
I'm not a veteran weizen brewer, but it is my most frequently brewed beer. If you want those flavors you should ferment at a higher temp. I believe from 66-74 or so. The warmer the temp, the more banana. I usually do about 65% wheat/35% pils. That's just me though!
 
This yeast is definitely very temp sensitive, but I still get good flavors at 62.

How about your water? Did you acidify your mash? I use Chicago city water and find 1-2mL of Lactic Acid and 1-2g CaCl really helps.
 
I'm having almost this exact same issue only with Wyeast 3068. I even fermented warm at 72F! Damn you simple hefe!!
 
Thanks for all the responses. Yeah I'll bump up the temp next time to get more fruitiness. But what about cloves? I was under the impression that suppressing the esters with lower fermentation temp lets the phenol/clove flavors shine through more. Is this wrong? Do higher temps promote more clove flavor as well as banana?

One thing I'm wondering about is oxygenation. I remember reading somewhere that too much oxygen can make hefe yeast produce less of certain flavor compounds - does anyone here aerate their hefes differently? I just do 60 seconds of O2 through a stone just because that's what I always do, but I have no idea how much dissolved O2 I end up with in my wort so that variable is kind of hard to control without a DO meter.


This yeast is definitely very temp sensitive, but I still get good flavors at 62.

How about your water? Did you acidify your mash? I use Chicago city water and find 1-2mL of Lactic Acid and 1-2g CaCl really helps.

I just used carbon filtered city water, no adjustments, no acid rest. I don't measure my mash pH, even though I know I should. Do you use those amounts just for light beers or for all your beers? Thanks for the info, I'll add that to my process next time.
 
Yup, that's probably my baseline adjustment. 1-2g of CaSO4 for hoppier beers. I use the Bru'n Water spreadsheet.
 
Here's a thread that is trying to figure out how to get more banana and clove flavors from a hefe:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/d...-fermentation-profiles-flavor-results-317195/

I've made a number of hefes using 3068 and still have not gotten the level of banana that I want. My most banana batch came when I fermented at 67F, underpitched by ~30%, and aerated just by shaking my bucket. Since then I've tried fermenting at 62F and using an oxygen aeration stone, and my results have have almost no banana or clove. My next hefe I'm going to ferment at 66F, give a very short shot of oxygen and underpitch by ~25%. And pray for banana.
I've read a zymurgy article from 2010 about brewing beer with intense banana flavors, but it mainly highlighted mash procedures. Mashing techniques will probably be the last thing I try, as I'd prefer to stick with single infusion mashes.
 
I tend to avoid O2 with a hefe. I just make a starter on a stir plate. I found that when I use O2 it tends to taste a little bland.
 
I agree with what others have said, ferment it at a higher temperature and you will definitely notice some stronger, estery flavors (mostly banana, but a noticeable amount of clove as well). The last hefe I made was several months ago, but I recall fermenting at 70 degrees or so and it had a similar flavor to Weihenstephaner. Pitched a single pack of 3068 last time, but I've had similar success with WLP300.

Good luck!
 
I just finished racking a dunkelweizen fermented with WLP300. The recipe is about half barley, half wheat, and I did a double infusion (30 min at 122, then another 30 min at 152) mash. Before pitching, I agitated the wort for about 5 minutes w/ a mix-stir rod on an 18v drill. I don't have any sort of fermentation temperature control in place (that's next on my upgrade list), but my basement temperature stayed between 64 and 68 degrees. I'm getting very prominent banana flavor, with little clove flavor but significant clove aroma.
 
I've gotten great esters (mainly banana) from underpitching (a smack pack of 3068 into 1.056 OG) and fermenting warm at 76.

I have one fermenting right now.
 
I just fermented with WLP300 and I let it ferment above 75deg :). I think it was like 78 or so in a non-ACd room in my house. Tasted it on saturday and it had nice flavor characteristics.
 
That actually is one of the qualities I like about WLP 300. However, I agree with all the posters about temperatures. I just kegged one this weekend that ferementedin the low 70's that had very prominent banana flavors.
 
I used braukaiser's hefe recipe this year for my summer wheat and it was a banana bomb fermented at 64-65. Prior to that I had be using EdWort's recipe and it was alot more balanced.
 
I just fermented with WLP300 and I let it ferment above 75deg :). I think it was like 78 or so in a non-ACd room in my house. Tasted it on saturday and it had nice flavor characteristics.

Wow. That's pretty hot for that yeast. I'd expect some hotness/fusels and huge banana esters. Please report back on the final product.
 
Wow. That's pretty hot for that yeast. I'd expect some hotness/fusels and huge banana esters. Please report back on the final product.

I had done an earlier hef with WLP300 fermented in the high 60s and it came away with ZERO banana flavors. In fact, it didnt even taste like a german hef at all, just a clean American wheat. So this time I was like 'ferment you m-f-er!' :ban:
 
I fermented all of my wits with WlP400 in the 80s with a heating pad. Always got great fruit and clove. I've been thinking of a switch to WLP300 tho as I read it produced those flavors at lower temps, maybe the 70s.
 
I had done an earlier hef with WLP300 fermented in the high 60s and it came away with ZERO banana flavors. In fact, it didnt even taste like a german hef at all, just a clean American wheat. So this time I was like 'ferment you m-f-er!' :ban:

Interesting approach. I might recommend investigating other aspects (pitch rate, yeast health, O2, mash schedule, water profile, etc). Most people get plenty of banana in the upper 60's, so fermenting well above the recommended range may not be the solution.
 
whoa, cancel that! Just popped another bottle and it has delightful banana. Weird, possibly the taste is still coming out?
 
whoa, cancel that! Just popped another bottle and it has delightful banana. Weird, possibly the taste is still coming out?

Perhaps. I recently brewed with WLP300, and had tons of banana flavors, after fermenting in the upper 60's low 70's.
 
I tend to avoid O2 with a hefe. I just make a starter on a stir plate. I found that when I use O2 it tends to taste a little bland.

According to the Yeast book by White, Increased oxygen will decrease the ester contributions of a beer. I was surprised to read that recently. I can definitely say the last wheat beer I made and used 60 secs of O2 on is much more restrained for my liking.

Also if it helps others to know, the banana character is not an ester but a phenol, which is also still affected by temperature but can be achieved with other pathways. If you are partial mashing or all graining it, a rest at 110F will increase ferulic acid content which is a precursor 4-vinyl guaiacol, our beloved clove phenol!

I will be trying this tomorrow with a split batch of wlp300 and blend of wlp300 and wlp410 (belgian wit II, the achouffe yeast). I will follow up and see what I can get with a lower pitch, no aeration beyond the hop stand, and a long ferulic acid/protein rest (45 minutes)

Edit: sleep deprivation is getting the better of me. To avoid obfuscation 4 Vinyl guaiacol produces the clove flavor, NOT banana which is the ester isoamyl acetate.
 
I've found that using pure o2 works against the yeast character. Also, fermenting at anything under 68*F makes for a very clean yeast profile with almost no esters. Usually I will under pitch by 15% and ferment at about 70*F until it starts to slow down, then let it warm up naturally to about 76*F for 24-36 hours. I don't cold crash or use any finings (either in the boil or in the keg).
 
CA_mouse, are you getting lots of banana? Also, are you using any specific water profile if you are getting lots of banana? In case you haven't picked up on it, I like banana.
 
CA_mouse, are you getting lots of banana? Also, are you using any specific water profile if you are getting lots of banana? In case you haven't picked up on it, I like banana.

I've gotten a fair amount starting it at 70*-72*F and letting it free rise. I like mine to be a little more clove rather than banana, so I tend to run mine under 68*F.

As for water profile, I just use a pretty neutral profile. Nothing too fussy.
 
With 300, I get bubblegum, not banana at higher temperatures. I ferment it in the low 60s and get plenty of banana.
 
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