Wyeast 3191 Berliner Weisse no activity

I've searched the forums and there just isn't much info at all about this yeast yet so I've decided to start a thread.

I brewed a Berliner Weisse yesterday using Wyeast 3191 PC. I smacked the pack 5 hours before pitching but when it came time to pitch the pack hadn't swollen at all. I normally do a yeast starter with Wyeast but because this pack has Lactobacillus and Brett in it as well as a german ale yeast, I wasn't sure if that would be the correct thing to do or not so I decided to pitch directly into the carboy.

The wyeast website says that 3191 is slow to start and that I should give it 2-3 days to let it get started. This morning, 12+ hours after pitching the wort looked very inactive. I'm not too worried yet but I'm wondering what actions I should take if 48 hours after pitching I still see no activity. Should I buy another pack and repitch or is letting the wort sit in a carboy for 48 hours to hazardous in which case I'd have to start all over?

This is the first time I've ever had a smack pack not inflate within 5 hours. The manufacturing date on the package is July 18, 2010 so the yeast is quite fresh. Does anyone have any experience with this strain of yeast? I really didn't want to make another "is my yeast dead" thread but since there isn't much info about this yeast/bacteria anywhere, I felt this was my only option to develope a salvage plan. Thanks in advance.

Wyeast 3191-PC Berliner-Weisse Blend
Beer Styles: Lambics, Geuze, Fruit Lambic, Flanders Red Ale
Profile: This blend includes a German ale strain with low ester formation and a dry, crisp finish. The Lactobacillus included produces moderate levels of acidity. The unique Brettanomyces strain imparts a critical earthy characteristic that is indicative of a true Berliner Weisse. When this blend is used, expect a slow start to fermentation as the yeast and bacteria in the blend is balanced to allow proper acid production. It generally requires 3-6 months of aging to fully develop flavor characteristics. Use this blend with worts containing extremely low hopping rates.

509inc said:

Wyeast 3191-PC Berliner-Weisse Blend
Beer Styles: Lambics, Geuze, Fruit Lambic, Flanders Red Ale
Profile: This blend includes a German ale strain with low ester formation and a dry, crisp finish. The Lactobacillus included produces moderate levels of acidity. The unique Brettanomyces strain imparts a critical earthy characteristic that is indicative of a true Berliner Weisse. When this blend is used, expect a slow start to fermentation as the yeast and bacteria in the blend is balanced to allow proper acid production. It generally requires 3-6 months of aging to fully develop flavor characteristics. Use this blend with worts containing extremely low hopping rates.

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This is on the wyeast website. I've already read that thoroughly, it still doesn't answer any of my questions. I just wish Wyeast would give more info as to whether a starter should be made for this strain considering it has bacteria in it. Also, they don't say anything about the smackpack taking longer than usual to inflate which is the only reason I'm second guessing it's viability. I'm sure it will be bubbling away tomorrow after I worry about it for 2 days LOL

I believe on the smack pack itself says you can smack and pour or smack and inflate. I do not always let mine inflate. I tend to forget that part every few batches or so.

I know it's not necessary but you'd think a pack that is only 2 months old and allowed to inflate for 5 hours would show some sign of life.

Yep I would have expected it to inflate. Someone else maybe able to provide some more info for you.

Good luck on the brew tho I hope it works out for you.

Ok, so Wyeast answered the email I sent them this morning. This is what they said:

Thank you for the email. 3191 is designed to give the Lactobacillus time to sour the beer prior to alcoholic fermentation. The yeast count is purposefully low on this blend and mixed with a high quantity of Lacto. The package will not swell quickly (like the normal 4-6 hours), and CO2 production and alcoholic fermentation will take a couple days to start. I know it seems odd, but everything sounds fine. I hope that this helps. Cheers,

So hopefully all my fears are unwarranted as I thought was probably the case. I'll post back if/when fermentation starts.

Checked it tonight after work. About 24 hours after pitching. A good 1 inch kreusen and airlock is furiously bubbling away. I guess this yeast just doesn't inflate the packs like most.

There is very little yeast in that pack. Its almost all lacto with just a touch of brett.

I am surprised that you have activity now. I would have expected it to take another day or so.

The same thing happened with me when I brewed the Kinderwiesse kit. Iwent ahead and dumped it in and it took 3 days to get started. I fermented it in the basement (68 degrees) and it took a long time. I never saw it bubble more than once every 5 seconds. It took 3 weeks till the readings remained the same. I.n letting it sit in the secondary for for a few weeks. I tasted a sample of the wort last night and it is very interesting. I'm really looking forward to this.

Not only was it bubbling when I got home from work, but about 30 hours after pitching it, I ended up attaching a blowoff tube because it started shooting out of my airlock. I really did not expect a wort with an OG of 1.028 to need a blowoff tube.

My og was 1.035 and ended withan FG of 1.008

My OG was 1.032, and I need a blowoff too. I brewed another batch on top of the yeast/lacto cake, which I'm hoping will take off quicker than the first batch (a couple days for mine to take off too).

Have you sampled this yet? I'm curious to see if yours is getting sour. I had a ~48hr lag time before the airlock started bubbling, but mine never developed any sour character. Wyeast was really nice about helping, but i'm a bit skeptical on the blend since i've read that others have had similar results.

I have not tasted mine, but it's only been in primary for 2 weeks now.It has just a few yeast rafts remaining. From pictures of lacto in the fermenter I've always seen a very white chalky looking kreausen, mine didn't seem to ever look like that. I still haven't decided how I'm going to deal with this beer. Not sure if I should leave it in primary for 1 month or let it go longer. Wyeast says "When you bottle, if your beer is homogeneous, the bottles should be the same… but will definitely change in character over aging time." So I don't think leaving it in a carboy longer than a month is really necessary.

Gritsak, how long has yours aged so far?

I left mine in the primary for a month, and it had a crisp sourness when I racked it. Nothing like I'd expect from a Berliner weiss, but I'm hoping it Ages well in the secondary. My lhbs suggested a few months at least in the secondary to get a strong enough flavor.

That sounds good. I think I'll primary for a month, secondary for a month then bottle and age for a few more months depending on taste.

steinsato said:

I have not tasted mine, but it's only been in primary for 2 weeks now.It has just a few yeast rafts remaining. From pictures of lacto in the fermenter I've always seen a very white chalky looking kreausen, mine didn't seem to ever look like that. I still haven't decided how I'm going to deal with this beer. Not sure if I should leave it in primary for 1 month or let it go longer. Wyeast says "When you bottle, if your beer is homogeneous, the bottles should be the same… but will definitely change in character over aging time." So I don't think leaving it in a carboy longer than a month is really necessary.

Gritsak, how long has yours aged so far?

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Mine is going on 2 months now, but the sourness should be noticeable even after a couple weeks. That's why they use the different amounts of lacto, sacch, and brett. That first couple days of lag time is mainly when the lactic acid is going to be produced.

Mine had no sourness after about 5 weeks, so per the advice of someone else on the board, i tossed in a couple pounds of rhubarb to see what happens. If i had to do it over again, i'd skip the blend and just use a big starter of lacto 2 days ahead of pitching the sacch. If my current one doesn't take a turn for the better in the next few weeks, i'll probably just add lactic acid to taste so i can at least free up the fermenter and try a different route this time.

Tasted mine last night after about 3 weeks in primary, OG was 1.028 and it is now down to 1.006. There was some sourness to it but not as much as I would have liked. Swmbo doesn't like sours and said it was definitely sour. I think next time I'll just go with a straight pack of Brett rather than this premixed package. I'm going to leave this in primary for one more week, then keg or bottle it and wait another 3 months before I try one again.

I finally got around to getting mine brewed for next year. (not many left from this years batch) Within 12 hours I had a nice lactobacillus "pelicle" on there looking all nasty and dusty. 48 hours in has a nice krousen that is still kicking along. Mine was 1.033 starting and about 10 IBU. (1oz tett, 2lbs pilsen, 3lbs wheat extract, mash high, 15 min boil)

I was intending on doing a 15 min boil but I forgot about that while I was mashing out and automatically mashed out 6 gallons of preboil wort so I ended up having to do a 60 min. boil to get my volume back down to 5 gallons.

tasted mine the other night and thought it was a little too sour for my liking. I kegged it but think I'm going to bottle it and let it sit for a while. I need some space in the fridge!!

steinsato said:

I was intending on doing a 15 min boil but I forgot about that while I was mashing out and automatically mashed out 6 gallons of preboil wort so I ended up having to do a 60 min. boil to get my volume back down to 5 gallons.

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Did you add your hops at 15? Too high of IBU and the lacto won't grow.

godofcheese said:

Did you add your hops at 15? Too high of IBU and the lacto won't grow.

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Yeah, I waited til the last 15 minutes to add the hops. It's funny how the same yeast packet is giving lots of different levels of sourness. Some people aren't getting any, some are getting too much and in my case it is there but I'd like more. I'm not too dissappointed in this yeast but if it becomes available again, I'm not sure I'd buy it.

BTW: I used this recipe for my Berliner-weisse https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f72/spurhund-zunge-95539/ only thing I did differently was boil for 60 min, and switched out his two wyeast packs for the 3191

steinsato said:

Tasted mine last night after about 3 weeks in primary, OG was 1.028 and it is now down to 1.006. There was some sourness to it but not as much as I would have liked. Swmbo doesn't like sours and said it was definitely sour. I think next time I'll just go with a straight pack of Brett rather than this premixed package. I'm going to leave this in primary for one more week, then keg or bottle it and wait another 3 months before I try one again.

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That's a good idea to keg or bottle..from what i've read recently the sourness develops better after this stage. Something with how lacto likes to work anaerobically. In any case, please be sure to post back in a couple months with updates.

I'm still trying to decide if I want to secondary for a month or not. I guess if in a week the SG is still 1.006 it's most likely done fermenting and any taste changes can still occur in the bottle. Wyeast seemed to think that a month is plenty of time and they didn't think their was enough Brett in the mix to cause bottle bombs so I guess waiting that extra month to bottle may be pointless. I know the horseblanket flavor will kick in with aging so some more funk is expected, I'm hoping the lacto continues to add sourness but don't really know if it will or not.

Anyone have an idea as to whether washing this yeast is worth the time and trouble? Or is the cocktail percentages going to be out of whack after they have had their way with a wort?

Mine has been in the secondary for 2 months now and has a crazy white hairy pellicle that I always assumed was from the brett.

steinsato said:

I'm still trying to decide if I want to secondary for a month or not. I guess if in a week the SG is still 1.006 it's most likely done fermenting and any taste changes can still occur in the bottle. Wyeast seemed to think that a month is plenty of time and they didn't think their was enough Brett in the mix to cause bottle bombs so I guess waiting that extra month to bottle may be pointless. I know the horseblanket flavor will kick in with aging so some more funk is expected, I'm hoping the lacto continues to add sourness but don't really know if it will or not.

Anyone have an idea as to whether washing this yeast is worth the time and trouble? Or is the cocktail percentages going to be out of whack after they have had their way with a wort?

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The fact that Wyeast recommends not to make a starter because it alters the cell counts leads me to think washing would be a waste of time.

Gritsak said:

The fact that Wyeast recommends not to make a starter because it alters the cell counts leads me to think washing would be a waste of time.

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Very Good Point
AlphaWolf, have you tasted yours yet?

Well, I decided to let it sit in secondary for a couple of months. I never did get a pelicle. There is a small white ring where the top of the beer meets the carboy but that is it. I'm going to take a gravity reading this weekend. Hopefully, it'll be down to 1.000. If it's still sitting at 1.006 I'm going to bottle it anyway considering that is where it was back in Oct. Once I bottle it, I guess I'll try to hold off drinking them as long as I can. But I'm sure I'll be cracking about 1 every couple of months to keep an eye on them.

I would think @ 1.006 it would be finished. Mine stopped at 1.009

Mine was at 1.002 last time i checked (several months ago). I just kegged it the other day..still plan to let it sit for another couple months, i just needed the carboy.

Did anybody else get sulfur during primary fermentation? I pitched on Sunday and fermentation is starting to wind down now with a lot of rotten egg smells coming out of the airlock.

Can't say I noticed any sulfur but I did brew mine months ago and could have easily forgotten. I did get a major blowoff about 24 hours after pitching though. I emailed Wyeast again yesterday and they recommended I just go ahead and bottle it, then continue to let it age a few more months. They claim the sourness will increase and a small amount of Brett character will start to come through.

I'm a bit paranoid about kegging this beer which is what I usually do. I'd prefer to keg, carbonate, then bottle with my beer gun but I don't want to risk contaminating beer lines I use for other beers (ex. beergun beerline, keglines) What do you guys think? Am I being over paranoid or should I stick with using a specific set of bottling equiptment for my sours?

All this Berliner Weisse talk has me gearing up to brew another one. I love this stuff.

steinsato said:

Can't say I noticed any sulfur but I did brew mine months ago and could have easily forgotten. I did get a major blowoff about 24 hours after pitching though. I emailed Wyeast again yesterday and they recommended I just go ahead and bottle it, then continue to let it age a few more months. They claim the sourness will increase and a small amount of Brett character will start to come through.

I'm a bit paranoid about kegging this beer which is what I usually do. I'd prefer to keg, carbonate, then bottle with my beer gun but I don't want to risk contaminating beer lines I use for other beers (ex. beergun beerline, keglines) What do you guys think? Am I being over paranoid or should I stick with using a specific set of bottling equiptment for my sours?

All this Berliner Weisse talk has me gearing up to brew another one. I love this stuff.

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I keep a couple kegs set aside that i only use with sours. I have 4 taps, and originally planned to use one exclusively for beers with brett. However, i might just buy and extra set of disconnects and line for brett fermented beers and just soak the faucet itself in a bowl of cleaner and then sanitizer before switching.

I wonder if you could instead just add campden tablets to the keg prior to hooking up the lines to kill any of the yeast.

I bought the last package of this year's Wyeast berliner weisse blend from my homebrew store, and brewed one up yesterday. After much online research of questionable reliability, its clear that the main problem folks are having with the style is failing to get enough lactic acid out of the Lactobacillus acidophilus. It seems that the bulk of the Lacto activity occurs in that lag time before the Sac yeast kick in and begin to out-compete the Lacto. Perhaps some additional sourness develops during aging, but the first couple of days in the primary seem to be the most critical period for the bacteria. As a result, I'm keeping my temps way up (near 80 degrees) to give the Lacto a competitive advantage during the hours before the Sac start cranking. I'm also considering tossing in a little lactose in the secondary for the Lacto to munch on. Theoretically, I think a lactose addition would work, but I haven't seen any confirmation of positive results.

My question is, now that some people who used this year's berliner weisse blend have had time to age their beers, how is the sourness now? Would you use the blend again? I think pitching some Lacto first and letting it sit at least 3 days before pitching the Sac might be a more reliable option. Anyone have insight into how this beer was traditionally brewed? I understand it was done with a sour mash, but did the Berliner brewers let the beer sit in the primary for a few days before pitching the yeast?

P.S. I also wonder if high hopping rates in some brewer's berliner weisse attempts might have supressed the Lacto growth. (I saw some recipes over 10 IBUs) I imagine that traditional berliner weisse has near zero hop character not necessarily because the Germans hate hops but because the anti-bacterial properties of hops prevent the kind of Lacto growth necessary for such an sharply sour beer.

I haven't tried mine for about a month now but when I tried it, I found it to not be as sour as I would have liked. My IBU's were only about 4. I'm surprised I had any sourness at all considering my yeast went balls out and needed a blowoff tube in under 24 hours after pitching. Wyeast claims it should have a very slow start, like 2-3 days before you notice much airlock activity. Which obviously is not my experience. When I brew this again. I won't use this yeast, I'll spend the extra money on a packet of Lacto and then another packet of german ale yeast to add to it 3 days later. Then I may attempt to harvest Brett from a bottle of Orval to add at bottleing.

AaronKeller said:

I bought the last package of this year's Wyeast berliner weisse blend from my homebrew store, and brewed one up yesterday. After much online research of questionable reliability, its clear that the main problem folks are having with the style is failing to get enough lactic acid out of the Lactobacillus acidophilus. It seems that the bulk of the Lacto activity occurs in that lag time before the Sac yeast kick in and begin to out-compete the Lacto. Perhaps some additional sourness develops during aging, but the first couple of days in the primary seem to be the most critical period for the bacteria. As a result, I'm keeping my temps way up (near 80 degrees) to give the Lacto a competitive advantage during the hours before the Sac start cranking. I'm also considering tossing in a little lactose in the secondary for the Lacto to munch on. Theoretically, I think a lactose addition would work, but I haven't seen any confirmation of positive results.

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I'd be careful about ramping it up that high. While you will get plenty of lacto action, you'll also threaten to make it too acidic for the yeast to work. Not only that but you might get some off flavors from the yeast working that high as well.

I don't plan to use this yeast blend again either. I did everything as recommended and had a 2-3 day lag-time before i saw any activity. Still hardly any initial (after 1.5 months) sourness. I've since added about 5lbs of rhubarb and a large starter of lacto to help out. It's definitely better now (some sourness), but still not what i had in mind. It's going on 4 months now, but hopefully another 2-3 months sitting in the keg over winter will allow more sourness to develop.

kidsmoke said:

I'd be careful about ramping it up that high. While you will get plenty of lacto action, you'll also threaten to make it too acidic for the yeast to work. Not only that but you might get some off flavors from the yeast working that high as well.

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I almost wish I could get that much acidity given the lack of acidity problems experienced by others with berliner weisse blend. . ..but I understand the point. The Saccharomyces fermentation kicked in this morning and I subsequently dropped the temp down in the 70 degree range to avoid any funky by-products (I mean. . .more funky by-products than those made by the Brett and Lacto in the Wyeast blend!). Just wanted to keep those Lactobacillus warm and happy for as long as possible before the yeast took things over.