BIAB vs steeping grains

When steeping, I was taught not to squeeze the bag because it will extract tannins and other nasty flavors. But when you do BIAB you squeeze the bag at the end of the mash. What gives?

You were "taught" somehting that was only half understood, and keeps getting passed around like it's cannon, when really it's an over simplifaction of something more complicated....Like someone keeps handing around the same half finished puzzel, as a finished work or art, and not realizing there's an entire part of the picture missing.

We really need to quit perpetuating this answer that is reptead rotely with very little understand..."I heard somewhere" is not a good enough reason to keep repeating something if you have no real understanding of what you're talking about. Read this, it pertains to both tannin myths Boiling and steeping.

Here's a detailed explanation.

There's no reason not to squeeze.....that's another old brewer's myth that has been misunderstood...and has been shot down..But if often just get's repeated as ROTE without anyone stopping to look beyond the just repeating the warning...

Read this https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/do-you-squeeze-bag-biab-177051/?highlight=squeeze

And this.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/squeezing-grain-bag-bad-175179/?highlight=squeeze

From Aussie Homebrewer.com

Tannins And Astringency

If you are worried about squeezing your bag too much or crushing too fine, relax! Astringent beers do not come from finely crushed or squeezed husks but come rather from a combination of high temperatures and high pH. These conditions pull the polyhenols out of the husk. The higher your pH and the higher temperature you expose your grain to, the worse the problem becomes. Any brewer, traditional or BIAB, should never let these conditions arrive. If you do allow these conditions to arrive, then you will find yourself in exactly the same position as a traditional brewer. Many commercial breweries actually hammer mill their grain to powder for use in mash filter systems because they have control of their pH and temperatures. This control (and obviously expensive complex equipment) allows them non-astringent beers and “into kettle,” efficiencies of over 100%.

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As long as you keep your steeping temps below 170, you won't be producing those supposed tannins that folks blindly say you would be squeezing out.

1) If your PH is off, or your steeping/mashing temp is above 170, your beer will extract tanins from the husks whether you squeeze or not

2) If your PH is ok, and your temps were below 170, squeeze away!

There's been some tests that have disproved the whole "don't squeeze the grain bag, because you will leech tannins" idea. I think there's even been a couple experiments on here detailed in threads. I think it's been pretty well shot down as one of those "old school" beliefs, that turn out to have little effect.

In fact if you are doing AG "Brew in a Bag" you are encouraged to squeeze the grain bag. They even showed it on basic brewing recently, the took a ladder with a hook attached, hung the grain bag, and twisted the hell out of it to drain every ounce of precious wort out of bag of grain.

This should launch as an mp-4

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbv01-16-10cornpils.mp4

So is that's the case, that it is "OK" to do in AG Brew in the bag, then why would it really be bad in extract with grains brewing?

I wouldn't worry about it.

From BYO, MR Wizard;

The two most influential factors affecting the extraction of tannins from malt into wort are pH and temperature. All-grain brewers are very careful not to allow wort pH to reach more than about pH 6 during sparging because tannin extraction increases with pH. In all-grain brewing wort pH typically rises during the last stages of wort collection and is one of the factors letting the brewer know that wort collection should be stopped.....

Temperature also affects tannin extraction. This relationship is pretty simple. If you don’t want to run the risk of getting too much tannin in your wort, keep the temperature just below 170° F.

This is where the answer to your last question begins. You ask whether steeping and sparging released "unwanted tannins" in your beer. For starters, all beer contains tannins. Some tannins are implicated in haze and some lend astringent flavors to beer.

The type most homebrewers are concerned about are those affecting flavor. In any case, it is up to the brewer to decide if the level of tannins in their beer is too high. The (in)famous decoction mash is frequently recommended when a brewer is in search of more malt flavor. Decoction mashes boil malt and — among analytical brewers who are not afraid of rocking the boat with unpopular ideas — are known to increase the astringent character associated with tannins. In general I wouldn’t consider 170° F dangerously high with respect to tannin extraction. However, if you believe your beers may suffer because of too much astringency, consider adjusting your steep pH and lowering the temperature a few degrees.

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They are often repeated ad nauseum by, especially new brewers, with little know understanding of the context behind them...or even a basic thinking like, "how come it says not to boil your grains, yet people doing decotion mashing do it all the time?" or "They say not to squeeze their grain bag, but in Brew in a Bag- they are encouraged to squeeze them...so what's going on here?."


It's the same with boiling your grains... posted a detailed discussion of the "chestnut" here; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/less-than-satisfied-my-first-brew-224679/#post2639410

(There are actually a number of instances where what's been told about that is actually done in all grain brewing....)

In fact I'm boiling my grains right here (It's called decocting)

I think this should be hung and posted in Every new brewers brew closet.

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What he said ^

I squeeze, twist, and compress mine till it gives up. Zero astringency.

+1 I get better efficiency with BIAB when I squeeze and no noticeable atringency. Keep in mind that your roasted/specialty grains are added ALONG WITH your base malts so your not just squeezing roasted or specialty malts, but the majority is your base malt.

Revvy. Thanks for the good information. I respect your opinion a lot. I realize that as one of the most active users on this service you must get tired of answering the same questions over and over again, but if I'm reading your tone right, you need to relax. I'm still a new homebrewer, only 2+ years, but I like to think I'm pretty well read. There is a lot of conflicting information out there, some by reputable sources. "They" in this case is Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer.


Yet, Palmer, his co-author writes in How to Brew

Maybe I'm missing something or taking it out of context, but it doesn't seem cut and dry when two esteemed home brewers who happen to have co-authored a book, don't put out consistent information.

John Palmer got a lot of stuff wrong especially in the first edition. He just, like a lot of people tended to regurgitate a lot of the so called "common wisdom" stuff into the book, without delving further or thinking deeper about it. He admitted it with the whole autolysis/Long primary thing, I tend to think he did it with more things as well. Just about anything you want to fear like Hot side aeration, can be attributed to something he threw in the book, BUT which has been actually downplayed or shown to be a "brewer's bugaboo" elsewhere.

I gave you other sources, most of those much more recent than his book (many like the quote from Mr Wizard in BYO prompted by his statement.

There is absolutely nothing different between BIAB and Steeping grains, EXCEPT that you are aiming for conversion. If it's OK in BIAB to squeeze, then it is idiotic to think it would be any different with extract with grains.

It's up to you what you want to believe.

I agree with you that it's inconsistent. I was just trying to figure out which was the right side of the argument. Sounds like Palmer had it right and Jamil had it wrong in this case.

Ya from a chemistry perspective this is just silly. You might end up with more particle matter in your kettle but the chemistry is not going to change much, unless maybe you can turn coal into diamonds with your grip.

why would squeezing the bag cause it to extract tannins anyways? that doesn't make sense to me. If there were tannins in there it wouldn't seem to me to make any differance if you squeezed it or not because the you're still sticking the bag in there. How do they would they only come out if you squeezed it?

I vote for sticky.

I 2nd the sticky motion. LOL. I'm most irritated when I'm in brew store I work in part time and I tell newbs they are wrong and they look at me like I'm the idiot. I need a thread like this to refer them to.

My prob was not with Revvy's answer, but with the fact that he seemed annoyed that I asked the question. I merely pointed out that not even the people that we all listen to and buy books from don't agree. I'm yet to hear a good explanation of how squeezing causes tannin extraction so Revvy's point is still valid.

I wasn't annoyed that you asked the question, I'm annoyed that we have to keep clarifying things like that, those half understood brewing "I heards" that get bandied about so often, even by authors of books, and other folks who should know better. Then we have to come in and clean up the messes other folks made by repeating things like that rotely.

Revvy said:

I wasn't annoyed that you asked the question, I'm annoyed that we have to keep clarifying things like that, those half understood brewing "I heards" that get bandied about so often, even by authors of books, and other folks who should know better. Then we have to come in and clean up the messes other folks made by repeating things like that rotely.

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The problem is that there are always going to be new brewers coming in here. No one came out of the womb knowing how to brew. People pick up bits and pieces and then they come here and get enlightened.

If those of us who know grow frustrated when people who don't know continue to come here to ask the same questions then we might as well close up shop here and go home.

I just recently got back into brewing after a few years off, and I'm tickled pink to answer the same questions that were being asked when I left. Makes me feel good to share with others what this great community shared with me when I first started out.

johnsma22 said:

The problem is that there are always going to be new brewers coming in here. No one came out of the womb knowing how to brew. People pick up bits and pieces and then they come here and get enlightened.

If those of us who know grow frustrated when people who don't know continue to come here to ask the same questions then we might as well close up shop here and go home.

I just recently got back into brewing after a few years off, and I'm tickled pink to answer the same questions that were being asked when I left. Makes me feel good to share with others what this great community shared with me when I first started out.

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You obviously STILL don't get what I'm saying. I SAID, it's annoying when A MYTH, gets perpetuated ESPECIALLY by folks like PUBLISHED AUTHORS....So THEY keep spreading it to unsuspecting brewers, who (unlike the OP) don't question and then keep spreading it rotely, then we have to clean up THE AUTHOR's mistakes.

I commend joeg13 for seeing the discrepancy and pointing it out, I just wish there were no discrepancy to cause any confusion.

They're not in the books or articles because Palmer or Jamil or Papazian or whoever actually squeezed a grain bag, or boiled grains and got tannins, it's in there because it was something the "heard" just like you and me, except they put it in a book, and therefore etched it into stone, whether it is true or not. They never bothered to look around at all the BIAB brewers who were squeezing, or the AG brewers who were decocting, and went "huh?" or "How Come" they just put the paragraph or sentence in. I know as an author myself it's hard to attribute or fact check every little thing that comes out of our head, but as been proved here so many of those little "asides" that got thrown into books like How TO Brew, like autolysis, tannins, hot side aeratation, all the little bugaboos that frighten the already nervous new brewers , who hover over every scary detail of the process- I think they needed to be thought through more or handled better in their work.

I really love folks who make jabs at the folks who REGULARLY devote hours of the day to answering new brewers questions, with lines like "Well maybe if you don't want to answer the same question over you shouldn't" if I had a problem with doing it why do you think my post count is so high? Because I play word game or hang out in the tap room? I've been doing this for years BECAUSE I CARE enough to do so. Many folks answer a few noob questions then give up when it's the same question 5 or 50 times a day. But I care more that GOOD BREWING INFORMATION gets out then how many times it gets asked. Noone's holding a gun to my head, are they?

I just hate having to clean up other people's bad information...

Well see how long YOU'LL last asking the same questions days in and days out, when your even near me, or even the other regulars on here who do it, in terms of time spent doing it, THEN you can cast aspersions on us.

joeg13 said:

My prob was not with Revvy's answer, but with the fact that he seemed annoyed that I asked the question. I merely pointed out that not even the people that we all listen to and buy books from don't agree. I'm yet to hear a good explanation of how squeezing causes tannin extraction so Revvy's point is still valid.

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I'm new at this too, but it seems to be a common theme.

Realized this not the place for this. My apologies to the community.

Well needless to say I rescind my vote for sticky.

Damn Revvy, I see where you are coming from, but do you really need to be pushing all the bold and caps? Like, you getting frustrated isn't going to change anything. You could however write a book, and then just be like "refer to line 8 on page 52 of my book, brewing myths demystified".

(This is me posting an off thread topic post)