Southern Tier Pumking Clone??

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I went with powdered ginger as per the suggestion of passedpawn, who has made 5 or so clones. I also though of gingerbread cookies. You don't put fresh ginger in cookies.
 
I went with powdered ginger as per the suggestion of passedpawn, who has made 5 or so clones. I also though of gingerbread cookies. You don't put fresh ginger in cookies.

good point. gingerbread cookies is the flavor we are looking for, not really fresh ginger.
 
Vol: 5.5 gal
Kettle Vol: 7 gal
OG: 1.090
IBU: appx. 34
SRM: appx. 11

Fermentables:
14 lbs. 2-Row Pale malt
1 lb. Victory
12 oz. Crystal 80°L
1 large Pumpkin (skinned, cubed and roasted with honey then added to mash)
1 lb. Demerara sugar (added after hot break)

Hops:
3/4 oz. Magnum @ 60 min.
1/4 oz. Saaz @ 15 min.

Additives:
8 oz. Lactose @ 15 min.
1/2 tsp. Yeast nutrient @ 10 min.
1 Whirlfloc tab @ 10 min.
2 tbsp. chopped Candied Ginger @ 5 min.
2 Cinnamon sticks @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Cloves @ 5 min.
1.2 tsp. grated Nutmeg @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Allspice @ 5 min.
1 Vanilla Bean (added to secondary)
1/2 tsp. ground Cinnamon (added to secondary)

Yeast:
2 packs Safale US-05

Mashed @ 152°F for 90 min.

Boiled for 60 min.

Fermented @ 66°F RT for 2 weeks in primary and 3 weeks in secondary. Force carbonated in keg.

Notes: The lactose could possibly be increased from 8 oz. to 10 oz., but definitely no more than that. Excluding the allspice and nutmeg might nudge it even closer to an exact clone, but it is not critical. I think that they key elements are the victory malt, lactose, vanilla and ginger.

i would increase the victory to 2 pounds, i know it sounds like a lot but it works
 
When do you add the pumpkin? Is it added directly to the mash? Any problems with a stuck sparge? And when so you add the brown sugar? Someone else asked but I couldn't find a response.
 
When do you add the pumpkin? Is it added directly to the mash? Any problems with a stuck sparge? And when so you add the brown sugar? Someone else asked but I couldn't find a response.


Roast pumpkin then add to mash. I mashed my sweet potatoes in a grain bag then added to boil. Don't use simple sugars if you want to clone Pumking. I will bottle carb with brown sugar just for ****s.

Took a sample from secondary last night and the aroma is spot on for pumking.
 
It's that time again! I brewed the recipe below with decent results. I have been on brewing hiatus for almost a year now (got married, lost job, had baby, got new job) and I NEED to brew!! Anyone have any suggestions to tweak the recipe? I think spicing is pretty close but the sweetness was a little off and it definitely needs more vanilla. Do vanilla beans work better than REAL vanilla (not the cheap stuff). My wife loves this stuff and our anniversary is on Halloween so I need to brew this weekend or next. Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

Type: All Grain
Date: 8/23/2009
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Brewer: EuBrew
Boil Size: 6.41 gal Asst Brewer: Erica
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (7.5 gal) and Cooler (48 qt)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
4 lbs Fruit - Pumpkin Caned (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 17.02 %
2 lbs Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 8.51 %
15 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 63.83 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 4.26 %
8.0 oz Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 2.13 %
0.54 oz Magnum [14.00 %] (60 min) Hops 18.5 IBU
1.07 oz Sterling [7.50 %] (10 min) Hops 7.2 IBU
0.26 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.00 tsp Allspice (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1.00 tsp Clove (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1.00 tsp Vanilla Extract (Bottling 5.0 min) Misc
1.50 tsp Nutmeg Ground (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
2.50 tsp Ground Cinnamon (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1 lbs Brown Sugar, Dark (50.0 SRM) Sugar 4.26 %
2 Pkgs English Ale (White Labs #WLP002) Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.101 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.074 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.032 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.017 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 9.14 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 7.45 %
Bitterness: 25.7 IBU Calories: 337 cal/pint
Est Color: 12.6 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 22.50 lb
Sparge Water: 2.33 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 28.13 qt of water at 167.0 F 152.0 F
I am wondering if this recipe calls for 1 TSP of Ground Cloves or Whole Cloves.

Also, the sparge water is 72deg F???

Can anyone help, I'm brewing this this weekend. If anyone has any tweaks that they found on this that benefited, please share!!!
 
For this years' pumpkin ale I decided to try to clone ST Pumking. I did a side-by-side last and it is very difficult to tell it from the genuine article. The intense aroma, unique graham cracker/raw pumpkin flavour, and spicing are all there. Recipe is based on label/ST website, various forums and my own speculation and tweaking when racking to secondary. I think the keys are the lactose and the ginger/vanilla. I really wasn't expecting that I would closely replicate the unique flavour profile of pumking, so I am both surprised and very pleased with the outcome.

Vol: 5.5 gal
Kettle Vol: 7 gal
OG: 1.090
IBU: appx. 34
SRM: appx. 11

Fermentables:
14 lbs. 2-Row Pale malt
1 lb. Victory
12 oz. Crystal 80°L
1 large Pumpkin (skinned, cubed and roasted with honey then added to mash)
1 lb. Demerara sugar (added after hot break)

Hops:
3/4 oz. Magnum @ 60 min.
1/4 oz. Saaz @ 15 min.

Additives:
8 oz. Lactose @ 15 min.
1/2 tsp. Yeast nutrient @ 10 min.
1 Whirlfloc tab @ 10 min.
2 tbsp. chopped Candied Ginger @ 5 min.
2 Cinnamon sticks @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Cloves @ 5 min.
1.2 tsp. grated Nutmeg @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Allspice @ 5 min.
1 Vanilla Bean (added to secondary)
1/2 tsp. ground Cinnamon (added to secondary)

Yeast:
2 packs Safale US-05

Mashed @ 152°F for 90 min.

Boiled for 60 min.

Fermented @ 66°F RT for 2 weeks in primary and 3 weeks in secondary. Force carbonated in keg.

Notes: The lactose could possibly be increased from 8 oz. to 10 oz., but definitely no more than that. Excluding the allspice and nutmeg might nudge it even closer to an exact clone, but it is not critical. I think that they key elements are the victory malt, lactose, vanilla and ginger.

brewing this one right now as we speak - had to use two large cans of pumpkin given the real thing isnt available until later this month... just took a sample of the mash and it tastes awesome, havent even gotten to the spices yet.
 
I am curious as to why you would only do a 60 min boil vs 90. I get that you need a 90 min mash to convert the pumpkin. But I am still curious about the shorter boil time. The recipe that I am looking at also calls for a 60 min boil. It makes me a little worried.
 
The only thing the longer boil is going to do is increase your OG. In this case hops are almost a throw away, meaning hops are not critical in hitting your numbers. I boiled 60 min both times I did this, neither were pumking but both were good pumpkin beers. I'm mashing at 160 this time to get some more of the sweetness to pull through without relying completely on the lactose. Ginger is a key for sure, and the vanilla. It's almost hard to get too much vanilla in this IMHO.
 
they serve pumking locally here, and it is delicious. They put a cinnamon, brown sugar, graham cracker rim job on the glass as well, what a treat!

pk.jpg
 
I'm drinking one right now, and goddamn, no other pumpkin comes close. I want the damn recipe already!
 
Damn all of you! I just had to pick up a case after reading this thread and now I am off to the HBS to pick up my yeast and hops to try my luck at the clone! At least I have a few bottles to drink while I brew! Wish me luck and I will post up what recipe I use later on.

ec81003b.jpg
 
great thread! will be trying to find some pumking locally and will probably give it a go myself. keep posting updates!
 
For this years' pumpkin ale I decided to try to clone ST Pumking. I did a side-by-side last and it is very difficult to tell it from the genuine article. The intense aroma, unique graham cracker/raw pumpkin flavour, and spicing are all there. Recipe is based on label/ST website, various forums and my own speculation and tweaking when racking to secondary. I think the keys are the lactose and the ginger/vanilla. I really wasn't expecting that I would closely replicate the unique flavour profile of pumking, so I am both surprised and very pleased with the outcome.

Vol: 5.5 gal
Kettle Vol: 7 gal
OG: 1.090
IBU: appx. 34
SRM: appx. 11

Fermentables:
14 lbs. 2-Row Pale malt
1 lb. Victory
12 oz. Crystal 80°L
1 large Pumpkin (skinned, cubed and roasted with honey then added to mash)
1 lb. Demerara sugar (added after hot break)

Hops:
3/4 oz. Magnum @ 60 min.
1/4 oz. Saaz @ 15 min.

Additives:
8 oz. Lactose @ 15 min.
1/2 tsp. Yeast nutrient @ 10 min.
1 Whirlfloc tab @ 10 min.
2 tbsp. chopped Candied Ginger @ 5 min.
2 Cinnamon sticks @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Cloves @ 5 min.
1.2 tsp. grated Nutmeg @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Allspice @ 5 min.
1 Vanilla Bean (added to secondary)
1/2 tsp. ground Cinnamon (added to secondary)

Yeast:
2 packs Safale US-05

Mashed @ 152°F for 90 min.

Boiled for 60 min.

Fermented @ 66°F RT for 2 weeks in primary and 3 weeks in secondary. Force carbonated in keg.

Notes: The lactose could possibly be increased from 8 oz. to 10 oz., but definitely no more than that. Excluding the allspice and nutmeg might nudge it even closer to an exact clone, but it is not critical. I think that they key elements are the victory malt, lactose, vanilla and ginger.

After reading this thread, I decided to dip my toe in the waters of this beer, using the recipe above as a starting point.

I made a test batch (1.5g) and made a couple modifications:
-Instead of pumpkin (hard to find atm), I boiled, mashed (as in mashed potatoes) the sweet potato, then spread it thinly and roasted @ 400deg. This led to significant carmelization of the sweet potato, especially in the thinner sections. I then added it the mash, and used the water I boiled the potato in as my dunk-sparge water (I am BIABing).
-Subbed light muscovado for the demerera
-Upped the victory by 50% (homemade, toasted 2-row for 15min @350)

So far, so good. the wort tasted great although the spices were very subtle. The smell out of the fermenter isn't very spicy/gingersnappy either, so I may add a spice tea/tincture either at bottling or when I rack to secondary for the vanilla bean & clearing.

I'll try to update the thread once it's ready!
 
Brewed my 10 gallon batch up last weekend and everything was on track and I hit my mash temps perfectly and my preboil gravity was spot on. Then I ran out of propane with about 20 minutes to go! I planned a 90 minute boils so it wasn't that bad and when I noticed that the tank was about to die I got my late hops and the spices that I used in the boil. But I ended up with about a gallon extra so my OG was low. I decided to add some DME the next day and per my calculation I should now be close to target OG. Once primary is complete I will add a bunch more of candied ginger and possibly a vanilla bean. But I can say that it really smells good!
 
I also reached out to a brewer at Southern Tier for some guidance. I showed him the recipe from the first post in this thread and linked to it in case he was curious to read more, and here's his reply:

Unfortunately, The Pumking is one of those beers where they don't like us to give too much away recipe-wise. Really, I suppose all I can recommend targeting a high mash temperature (156F-158F) so there will be some more residual sugars after fermentation. Maybe a little more magnum to get 30 IBUs. But beyond that, the owner really doesn't like us discussing the recipe, sorry.

Major bummer they have to be so tight lipped, but it's understandable given the demand for this.
 
For this years' pumpkin ale I decided to try to clone ST Pumking. I did a side-by-side last and it is very difficult to tell it from the genuine article. The intense aroma, unique graham cracker/raw pumpkin flavour, and spicing are all there. Recipe is based on label/ST website, various forums and my own speculation and tweaking when racking to secondary. I think the keys are the lactose and the ginger/vanilla. I really wasn't expecting that I would closely replicate the unique flavour profile of pumking, so I am both surprised and very pleased with the outcome.

Vol: 5.5 gal
Kettle Vol: 7 gal
OG: 1.090
IBU: appx. 34
SRM: appx. 11

Fermentables:
14 lbs. 2-Row Pale malt
1 lb. Victory
12 oz. Crystal 80°L
1 large Pumpkin (skinned, cubed and roasted with honey then added to mash)
1 lb. Demerara sugar (added after hot break)

Hops:
3/4 oz. Magnum @ 60 min.
1/4 oz. Saaz @ 15 min.

Additives:
8 oz. Lactose @ 15 min.
1/2 tsp. Yeast nutrient @ 10 min.
1 Whirlfloc tab @ 10 min.
2 tbsp. chopped Candied Ginger @ 5 min.
2 Cinnamon sticks @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Cloves @ 5 min.
1.2 tsp. grated Nutmeg @ 5 min.
1/2 tsp. Allspice @ 5 min.
1 Vanilla Bean (added to secondary)
1/2 tsp. ground Cinnamon (added to secondary)

Yeast:
2 packs Safale US-05

Mashed @ 152°F for 90 min.

Boiled for 60 min.

Fermented @ 66°F RT for 2 weeks in primary and 3 weeks in secondary. Force carbonated in keg.

Notes: The lactose could possibly be increased from 8 oz. to 10 oz., but definitely no more than that. Excluding the allspice and nutmeg might nudge it even closer to an exact clone, but it is not critical. I think that they key elements are the victory malt, lactose, vanilla and ginger.

Video from my brew day making this recipe back on the 3rd... Just transferred to secondary today. Came out at an even 8% ABV. Couldn't find vanilla beans anywhere, but went to one of our gourmet grocery stores in the area and found a bangin bourbon vanilla bean extract that I added a tablespoon and a half of - bottle said 1TBS = 1 Bean. Now for it to sit another 2 weeks

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Last year I tasted and smelled hazelnut in the aroma. It didn't seem as strong to me in the bottle I had this year, but I still get a hint of it. Hazelnut is not unheard of in pumpkin pie or beer. I don't know that ST uses it, but maybe a bit of hazelnut extract at bottling would help with this cloning effort.
 
Last year I tasted and smelled hazelnut in the aroma. It didn't seem as strong to me in the bottle I had this year, but I still get a hint of it. Hazelnut is not unheard of in pumpkin pie or beer. I don't know that ST uses it, but maybe a bit of hazelnut extract at bottling would help with this cloning effort.

I would guess the nutty aroma is from the grains. The use of HZ extract would have to be used judiciously; something like 1/4 oz for a 5 gal batch as to not dominate the other spice aromas. You don't want to end up with a Rogue hazelnut brown clone.
 
Does anyone else get tons of "cap'n crunch" aroma and flavor from this beer? After having a pumpking and a creme brulee stout for the first time last week, I've realized there is no way to get those kinds of flavors in beer without resorting to artificial measures. That's why I think there is a lot of truth in the following quote:

So I actually spoke with someone at ST last night. He didn't give me specifics but told me that they use an alcohol based spice mixture of Cinnamon, Nutmeg, and cloves. He told me that he's heard of people having success on a smaller scale making a tincture using 151 and their spices. He said it's all added after it ferments out.

I know he's not telling me the WHOLE story because there is certainly vanilla in this beer. But cool that he shared some information.

The "alcohol based mixture" the employee referred to is most likely an artificial "spice" extract. Probably something like this http://spicebarn.com/pumpkin_spice_flavoring.htm. I bet the reason there were differing stories from the owner and the employee is that the owner is reluctant to admit to using the flavorant while the employee had less reason to be reserved.
 
In fact, looking at the other flavorants on the site I linked to above, they have a "vanilla butter and nut" that may be used as well and give the pumpking the crust flavor everyone talks about and I refered to as cap'n crunch. It's probably where the hazelnut aroma some people get comes from too.

There is also a "burnt sugar" flavorant on there. Creme Brulee Stout? :D

I think if anyone wants to really clone this beer, you've gotta use the artificial flavors.
 
In fact, looking at the other flavorants on the site I linked to above, they have a "vanilla butter and nut" that may be used as well and give the pumpking the crust flavor everyone talks about and I refered to as cap'n crunch. It's probably where the hazelnut aroma some people get comes from too.

There is also a "burnt sugar" flavorant on there. Creme Brulee Stout? :D

I think if anyone wants to really clone this beer, you've gotta use the artificial flavors.

You are probably right. I have tried several times with discrete spices, and I keep missing the target.
 
Something about the numbers on the bottle don't seem to add up. The ST website says the ABV is 8.6%. There is a picture of the label that says 9% ABV and 19* Plato. 19* Plato is ~1.079 and in order to get even 8.6% ABV from that you'd need to hit a FG of ~1.013 (~84% apparent attenuation). Pumpking doesn't taste that highly attenuated so I don't get it. Unless they actually do add lactose but don't include it in the OG.
 
I think if anyone wants to really clone this beer, you've gotta use the artificial flavors.
thank you. if you go back a years worth of time you'll see my rant about using graham cracker extract. it's not the same as the flavorants you've mentioned, but i feel there's def some common ground there with the "enhancement" of flavors.
 
I just had this over the weekend and had to take a stab at it. To me, this was as close to Pumkin pie in liquid form as it gets. I put this little recipe together and brewed it up last night. It's already chugging away in the fermenter. After double thinking it, I may have gone waaay too heavy on the spices but trial and error is part of the fun. Any critiques are greatly appreciated.

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 3.00 gal
Boil Size: 4.27 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Mashed @ 160 for 90min

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
1 lbs Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 9.52 %
7 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 71.43 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 7.14 %
12.0 oz Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 7.14 %
8.0 oz Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4.76 %
29.00 oz Pumpkin (Canned) (Mash 90.0 min) Misc
1.50 oz Saaz [3.85 %] (60 min) Hops 29.0 IBU
0.50 tsp Allspice (Ground) (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
0.50 tsp Cinnamon (Ground) (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1.50 tsp Ginger (Ground) (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1.50 tsp Nutmeg (Ground) (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
4.00 oz Lactose (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
2.00 tsp Vanilla (Pure Extract) (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
2.00 tsp Vanilla (Pure Extract) (Bottling 0.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Irish Ale (White Labs #WLP004) Yeast-Ale

Est Original Gravity: 1.085 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.023
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 8.16 %
Bitterness: 29.0 IBU Calories: 414 cal/pint
Est Color: 15.1 SRM
 
The vanilla you added to the boil with 5 minutes left is probably a waste. Since the vanilla aromas and flavors are so volatile, they were probably mostly boiled off. Otherwise looks like a good pumpkin ale!
 
Running the risk of this being mentioned already, but has anyone attempted a box of Graham crackers in the mash to mimick Revvy's box of ginger snaps in his ginger snap ale. Seems a unique way to chase ST's Graham cracker flavor.
 
Last year when I bottled my pumpkin ale I added 10ml of vanilla extract to the bottling bucket. It was a distant background compliment to the flavor. If you went to 15ml it'd probably be a little more noticeable but not overwhelming.
 
Running the risk of this being mentioned already, but has anyone attempted a box of Graham crackers in the mash to mimick Revvy's box of ginger snaps in his ginger snap ale. Seems a unique way to chase ST's Graham cracker flavor.

Yes I used two boxes of graham crackers in both my pumking"ish" brew and also in my gingerbread southern english brown... both brewed within the last month. I have read some good things about the flavor actually coming through. I also used sweet potatoes, squash, and raw cane sugar... so it might be a little more "rich" than pumking but I will definitely post back in 45 days or so and give you my recipe + results.
 
Something about the numbers on the bottle don't seem to add up. The ST website says the ABV is 8.6%. There is a picture of the label that says 9% ABV and 19* Plato. 19* Plato is ~1.079 and in order to get even 8.6% ABV from that you'd need to hit a FG of ~1.013 (~84% apparent attenuation). Pumpking doesn't taste that highly attenuated so I don't get it. Unless they actually do add lactose but don't include it in the OG.
I bought a couple of bottles of Pumpking and measured the SG. It was in the 1.018-1.020 range. The label says 19* Plato and 8.6% ABV. If you start at 19* Plato (1.079) then you must ferment it down to ~1.013 to hit 8.6% ABV. Going from 1.079 to 1.019 is only ~7.8% ABV. So there is something else going on.

Maybe they ferment it down to 1.013 and then add lactose to get the SG up to 1.018-1.020. Since a FG of 1.013 is ~84% apparent attenuation this seems unlikely unless they add a decent amount of brown sugar.

Or maybe they only ferment it down to 1.018-1.020 and then add an alcohol-based tincture of pumpkin pie spices to get the alcohol up to 8.6%. A FG of 1.019 equates to ~76% apparent attenuation which is at least in the 'typical' range. If my calcs are right, it would require about 12-13 oz of 80 proof tincture in 5 gallons of beer to get that extra 0.8% ABV.

Or maybe a combination of the two.

Just a guess but I think any graham cracker flavor is a result of the spices (and sweetness). Pumpkin pie doesn't have a graham cracker crust so it would seem strange for ST to use graham cracker flavoring.
 
I bought a couple of bottles of Pumpking and measured the SG. It was in the 1.018-1.020 range. The label says 19* Plato and 8.6% ABV. If you start at 19* Plato (1.079) then you must ferment it down to ~1.013 to hit 8.6% ABV. Going from 1.079 to 1.019 is only ~7.8% ABV. So there is something else going on.
Wouldn't a fully-carbed beer throw off your hydrometer readings though? I suspect the carbonation would make your readings higher than they truly are (unless you left it out so it'd get flat).

I'm loving this thread, btw. It reads like a freakin' mystery novel. :mug:
 

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