How exactly do Bud/Miller/Coors brew such consistent beers??

Was thinking about how different beers from my kitchen are, even in the same batch, quite different from one another when bottled. Then I realized that Abita, Lazy Magnolia, and even Sam Adams have variations from bottle to bottle.

So... how EXACTLY does, Anheuser-Busch make every single Budweiser take the EXACT same???

grndslm said:

Was thinking about how different beers from my kitchen are, even in the same batch, quite different from one another when bottled. Then I realized that Abita, Lazy Magnolia, and even Sam Adams have variations from bottle to bottle.

So... how EXACTLY does, Anheuser-Busch make every single Budweiser take the EXACT same???

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Crazy amounts of temperature control, blending batches, yeast batch verification with microscopes...things that no homebrewer could ever hope to accomplish with our limited resources.

Science!

The same way coca-cola does it- perfect recipe control and process, made easier by large industrial sized equipment and batches that can average out small differences into massive volumes.

In addition to science, they encourage drinking their brews so cold, you can't taste much. Plus, they are filtered and pasteurized, minimizing any change in flavor and infection.

grndslm said:

Abita, Lazy Magnolia

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+1 for great southern beers!

Brewing is interesting, it's in someways free-form and organic, especially in homebrewing where most folks have really simple systems, but it's also about numbers....gravity, ibu's, pitch rate, temp, and those things can all be controlled with really sophisticated systems. It's two ends of the same spectrum. And commercial breweries, regardless of whether it's bmc or craft, are usually really sophisticated computer controlled endeavors.

Bud has a master taster just for their shipments of rice. The train rolls in, he creates a sample of it and tastes it. If it differs from the accepted the WHOLE ENTIRE train cart of rice goes back. That is quality control

There is a documentary that I just watched this week on Netflix about them that roughly answer these questions. Also if you listen to the American light episode from the Jamil show. They have smaller companies that test all new ingredients one at a time. if you are interested in the answer to this question I found both of those shows very interesting.

quadmx08, do you happen to remember the name of the show on Netflix?

Revvy said:

Brewing is interesting, it's in someways free-form and organic, especially in homebrewing where most folks have really simple systems, but it's also about numbers....gravity, ibu's, pitch rate, temp, and those things can all be controlled with really sophisticated systems. It's two ends of the same spectrum. And commercial breweries, regardless of whether it's bmc or craft, are usually really sophisticated computer controlled endeavors.

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Exactly. So what is it that separates BMC from the craft brewers?

It isn't rather fair to compare BMC to craft brewers, but I mean.... why is the consistency of BMC just so "unnatural"?? Dare I say... "supernatural"??

My friend spoke of a documentary where the Sam Adams owner said he admired Anheuser-Busch for its consistency. That's what inspired this thread. There must be something Anheuser-Busch knows that the craft brewers still haven't caught onto yet.

Calichusetts said:

Bud has a master taster just for their shipments of rice. The train rolls in, he creates a sample of it and tastes it. If it differs from the accepted the WHOLE ENTIRE train cart of rice goes back. That is quality control

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Is this for real?

grndslm said:

There must be something Anheuser-Busch knows that the craft brewers still haven't caught onto yet.

Is this for real?

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I am not so sure it is what they know, but a result of the scale and mass amount of funds to afford the highest tech equipment and experts.

I don't know the extent that it affects consistency but the FDA allows breweries to add about 60 ingredients that don't have to be labelled on the bottle. These include clarifying agents (such as irish moss or gelatin) as well as various stabilizers and other chemicals. So the extent that the beer is uniform can be chemically produced in addition to filtering and pasteurizing.

Revvy said:

. And commercial breweries, regardless of whether it's bmc or craft, are usually really sophisticated computer controlled endeavors.

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plus one

Everything that we do as home brewers is all automated at the big breweries, everything from water quality, amounts of grains, water content in the grains, different temps, different times of temps, amount of yeast, etc. etc. etc.. Things we never think about they monitor with computers.

homebrewers tend to do everything they can to NOT get consistancy.

They jump from recipe to recipe, they try every new idea as it comes along, they constantly upgrade equipment. we lie to yourselve that every batch and fermentation is different, rather than work for consistency.
The longer a batch takes the less often they brew it and spend a lot of time focusing on the whole process instead of repeating each step. They also have horrible records.

how many have an awesome RIS or barleywine in the works?
how many have 4-5 batches of the same awesome RIS or barleywine in the works at week 1, week 3, month 1, month 2 , month 4?

even with simple beers consistency requires brewing the same recipe a lot, and that rarely gets done.

"I'm a new brewer what should my next brew be?"
two more of the last batch.

amandabab said:

"I'm a new brewer what should my next brew be?"
two more of the last batch.

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Probably true, but that would be so boring and I don't like just drinking the same beer all the time. I am personally just not that worried about consistancy, but of course I am not trying to sell it and drink 95% of what I brew myself. I would fail at being a pro brewer, it sounds like it would get boring as hell.

Speaking from experience as a line mechanic for Pepsi I can tell you that to the trained tastebuds of a QC technician products do indeed taste different from batch to batch. There is a certain threshold that is acceptable and alot of the "tasting" is done electronically but no two batches or even cans/bottles are exactly alike. Same goes for BMC. I actually watched a documentery on Budweiser and they talked about some of their professional taste testers.

Ramitt said:

Probably true, but that would be so boring and I don't like just drinking the same beer all the time. I am personally just not that worried about consistancy, but of course I am not trying to sell it and drink 95% of what I brew myself. I would fail at being a pro brewer, it sounds like it would get boring as hell.

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heck yeah, its tedious and boring.
multiple types and styles on hand is great, but a few signature recipes that always come out the same is nice too

beechwood aging

How do they achieve consistency?

Simple!

Unlike us, they are not allowed to drink on the job.

Ramitt said:

I am not so sure it is what they know, but a result of the scale and mass amount of funds to afford the highest tech equipment and experts.

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My question is...

What is Samual Adams' excuse for not being as consistent as BMC? What equipment could BMC have that Sam Adams doesn't.

Gear101 said:

plus one

Everything that we do as home brewers is all automated at the big breweries, everything from water quality, amounts of grains, water content in the grains, different temps, different times of temps, amount of yeast, etc. etc. etc.. Things we never think about they monitor with computers.

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I'm not even talking about homebrewers.

I'm talking about Sam Adams. What is preventing Sam Adams from brewing a beer that tastes the same in 2 bottles. I have bought hundreds of bottles of Sam Adams and they ALL taste different.

I noticed that Budweiser changed shortly after InBev bought Anheuser-Busch, and that's the only diference I've noticed in a decade or so of drinking. Consistent before, and consistent after.... but there was one change they made visible to all their buyers -- the "Flavor-lock crown" caps. I still think their brewing process has something to do with the consistency. Budweiser is FRESHER now, but it's still not GOOD! It *is* consistent, tho.

amandabab said:

homebrewers tend to do everything they can to NOT get consistancy.

They jump from recipe to recipe, they try every new idea as it comes along, they constantly upgrade equipment. we lie to yourselve that every batch and fermentation is different, rather than work for consistency.
The longer a batch takes the less often they brew it and spend a lot of time focusing on the whole process instead of repeating each step. They also have horrible records.

how many have an awesome RIS or barleywine in the works?
how many have 4-5 batches of the same awesome RIS or barleywine in the works at week 1, week 3, month 1, month 2 , month 4?

even with simple beers consistency requires brewing the same recipe a lot, and that rarely gets done.

"I'm a new brewer what should my next brew be?"
two more of the last batch.

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Again... what's Sam Adam's excuse, considering they ARE using the same recipe over and over again?

if Bud tasters detect any flavor they dilute the beer some more. no flavor and no off flavors = good to go. it's harder than it seems.

grndslm said:

My question is...

What is Samual Adams' excuse for not being as consistent as BMC? What equipment could BMC have that Sam Adams doesn't.

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one major difference is that the big guys like AB will dump and entire batch if it's slightly off. It may already be in the fermenter for days and if something off develops the batch will get dumped.

Sam Adams, despite being big, still is not big enough to dump batch after batch and will do what they can to salvage it. AB quality control is insane and the batch must be dead nuts on in very tight specs to go off to bottling. AB, like just about any batch operation has what one calls the Golden Batch which is the specs and conditions used to create considered the perfect batch actually made. Like others have stated, the level of automation in a big brewery is so advanced that it gives them the ability to achieve the close to the golden batch over-and-over.

It's also the other processes you don't think about such as the CIP system, the Preventative Maintenance and Predictive Maintenance Programs and the Standard Operating Procedures practiced in all the breweries. These are the things that make a Budweiser in St. Louis taste exactly the same as a Budweiser brewed in Asia.

Also Sam Adams utilizes a lot of contract brewing so they have less tight control over there final product.

grndslm said:

Is this for real?

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Yes...I want to say it was on one of those "how its made" shows but I don't know if that was the exact name. It was only 1 of three parts of the show but they go over a few of the techniques...it was interesting but for the most part a beginners crash course in brewing

I toured 4 breweries here in Portland a couple weeks ago, one of them being Widmer. While not on the scale of BMC, their system is almost completely automated, and 4-6 batches go into a single fermenter (1250 barrels). They test at every stage of brewing to ensure the batch is going right, and if something shows up as being wrong they either correct it immediately or dump it.

Also, they brew 5 days a week, 24 hours a day - so cool!

grndslm said:

Again... what's Sam Adam's excuse, considering they ARE using the same recipe over and over again?

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Chill a Sam Adams down to American Light Pilsner drinking temps and see how much of a flavor difference you can detect.

i heard it comes from the exact same penis of the exact same horse... everytime

wubears71 said:

Also Sam Adams utilizes a lot of contract brewing so they have less tight control over there final product.

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This is absolutely correct. If you tour their brewery in Boston, you'll realize that it's probably not even big enough to supply their Northeast demands, let along the East Coast demands. Also, having such a distributed system of production means they can't blend batches to try to even out one that may have some minor anomalies. I think it's all about consistent procedures. Having a team of microbiologist to care for your yeast also doesn't hurt. I would think that this would be the area of most concern. You can easily control water, mash, boil and hops. I feel the parameters are known enough in these areas to get a consistent wort into the fermenter. But yeast, man, that's a living mutating thing from generation to generation. From what I understand, they ship out their yeast from a central lab to each brewery and have found the appropriate number of generations it can be used before the mutations throw the flavor off. With large chemical plants, it's set procedures that develop consistent products.

A coworker put it to me this way. Consider all the microbiological processes involved in creating certain prescription drugs. It's a miracle that pharma companies aren't killing people left and right. That sort of makes BMC producing consistent beer look like child's play IMHO.

I think the claim that BMC brands have near perfect consistency and Sam Adams does not is somewhat dubious.
I work for a BMC brand and often attend professional sensory panels. I can tell you with confidence that there abslutely are variations between batches, though they tend to be quite minor.

Try organizing a group of tasters to do a sensory panel. Taste 5 of the same BMC brand with different package codes. Then taste 5 Sam Adams with different package codes. This is the only real way to confirm that one is more consistent than the other.

mbitton said:

quadmx08, do you happen to remember the name of the show on Netflix?

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CNBC originals: Budweiser, beer wars is also a good one.

LandoLincoln said:

Chill a Sam Adams down to American Light Pilsner drinking temps and see how much of a flavor difference you can detect.

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Why can't I just drink my Budweiser warm??

AshtrayDinner said:

I think the claim that BMC brands have near perfect consistency and Sam Adams does not is somewhat dubious.
I work for a BMC brand and often attend professional sensory panels. I can tell you with confidence that there abslutely are variations between batches, though they tend to be quite minor.

Try organizing a group of tasters to do a sensory panel. Taste 5 of the same BMC brand with different package codes. Then taste 5 Sam Adams with different package codes. This is the only real way to confirm that one is more consistent than the other.

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I'd be willing to bet that 100% of the people would be able to taste a greater difference between various package codes of Sam Adams than those of Budweiser.

Any day. Namely, for reasons stated herein... such as the contract brewing bit and the part where Anheuser-Busch can afford to toss a slightly off-tasting batch. That explains quite a bit, really. Perhaps they have a tad bit more understanding of their yeasties, but I dunno. I guess.

HolyKrausenBatman said:

A coworker put it to me this way. Consider all the microbiological processes involved in creating certain prescription drugs. It's a miracle that pharma companies aren't killing people left and right. That sort of makes BMC producing consistent beer look like child's play IMHO.

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That's the truth. I'm a chemical engineer and I'm not going to name the medicine nor the manufacturer other than its something found on shelves everywhere. I did a lot of work in one of the facilities that make it and what always amazed me was that so many of the raw materials would kill one in very small dose, yet when combined together and letting the chemical reaction take place, the final active ingredient is very helpful to us.

Ironically, most chemical/pharma manufacturers seem I do work in have less stringent QC regulations than the ones at AB.

it's probably been mentioned before, but it's easy to have consistent taste when there is little taste to start off with. i'm not knocking BMC beers, part of their popularity comes from the fact that they don't hit you over the head with hops and yeast.

i'm much more impressed when belgian beers taste relatively consistent.

sweetcell said:

it's probably been mentioned before, but it's easy to have consistent taste when there is little taste to start off with. i'm not knocking BMC beers, part of their popularity comes from the fact that they don't hit you over the head with hops and yeast.

i'm much more impressed when belgian beers taste relatively consistent.

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that is false. Because it has so little flavor it is harder to make it identical each time. You can't hide any off flavors in a bud light. You can't even hide much taste in bmc.

That said I'm impressed by bmc and what they do.

The homebrew club where I used to live had a brew day at the LHBS where everyone made the "same" RIS. They fermented it on premise and blended them all in two oak barrels for aging.
My dad did a lot of work for local wineries and I would get tours by the owners when I could. Most blended their batches to try and match the previous season's wine.
I'd say blending is the law of large numbers for brewing, vintning, and the like. It masks quite a lot of inconsistencies.

grndslm said:

Why can't I just drink my Budweiser warm??

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Post a video of it when you do.

amandabab said:

"I'm a new brewer what should my next brew be?"
two more of the last batch.

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I suppose, if your main reason for getting into brewing was to brew one beer

grndslm said:

My question is...

What is Samual Adams' excuse for not being as consistent as BMC? What equipment could BMC have that Sam Adams doesn't.

I'm not even talking about homebrewers.

I'm talking about Sam Adams. What is preventing Sam Adams from brewing a beer that tastes the same in 2 bottles. I have bought hundreds of bottles of Sam Adams and they ALL taste different.

Again... what's Sam Adam's excuse, considering they ARE using the same recipe over and over again?

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Sam Adams is a large Craft brewery, yes. They are not a large brewery in comparision to BMC. Not even close. You cannot compare them. They don't have nearly the capitol to be throwin at technology, research and QC.

bb239605 said:

that is false. Because it has so little flavor it is harder to make it identical each time. You can't hide any off flavors in a bud light. You can't even hide much taste in bmc.

That said I'm impressed by bmc and what they do.

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This.

Bud also blends together several HUGE batches of beer when they are done fermenting, ensuring that if there was a slight difference in batch no. 1,987,198,482,192, it would be diluted by is sister batches.