Any tips for a first time Lager brew

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Cidahmastah how did your decoction vs infusion tests turn out? I've only done one decoction mash, a tripple, missed degrees each step but the final product was top notch. The mouth feel was very full while using only 2 row pale malt. I am wondering how it might have turned out with a simple single infusion mash and if the decoction mash actually lead to complexity to the beer. What are your findings?
 
Cidahmastah how did your decoction vs infusion tests turn out? I've only done one decoction mash, a tripple, missed degrees each step but the final product was top notch. The mouth feel was very full while using only 2 row pale malt. I am wondering how it might have turned out with a simple single infusion mash and if the decoction mash actually lead to complexity to the beer. What are your findings?

I haven't done the infusion only brew just yet (but will try to post my results when I do).

So far I have a distilled water single mash out decoction boiled for 22minutes and a well water (close to dublin style) single mash out decoction boiled for 22 minutes.

I plan to do a single infusion with buoth the hard and distilled water, but due to my lack of lagering space I am limited to spread the batches out.

FWIW - my distilled water version was top notch IMO. I am currently lagering the second version so I don't know how that one will turn out (about 1 week lagering only)

Denny has reported a bit on the decoction and says he generally doesn't notice a marked improvement, and many tasters didnt either. Don't quote me fully, but Denny did a little test and those were the general results as I recall them (powerpoint presentation and all).

I personally think there probably is little palatable difference between an infusion and a decoction (I have not done a side by side though). But there is a certain sexy factor to performing one in your beers. So a blind taste, literally with a blind fold would be needed.

Until I do all the versions I won't be able to decide if water, and infusion/decotion impacts my lagers enough to warrant running to the store, or extending my brew day.


I have been curious about using 2row vs pilsner too. But never had done side by sides. I would be very interested to try that as well, just lack the space to do all my tests, I do 11G batches.

In the least my first lager attempts were sorta paying homage to the german brewing guidlines with the german pilsner and other malts. I am sure american versions would make a fantastic lager as well.
 
Denny has reported a bit on the decoction and says he generally doesn't notice a marked improvement, and many tasters didnt either. Don't quote me fully, but Denny did a little test and those were the general results as I recall them (powerpoint presentation and all).

My results are here...http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf .

If you add together those who preferred the single infusion beer and those who had no preference, it's clear there was no preference for the decocted beers. There were 5 beers and IIRC 19 blind tasters. The tasters were experienced homebrewers, BJCP judges and commercial brewers.
 
So I took a sample yesterday of this pilsner and its a real butter bomb still, after 4 weeks at 34 and 72 hours at 72. I am going to krausen the beer over the next week. What is the procedure for doing this? How much starter wort to how much dry Nottingham (the only yeast I have on hand). Also should I degass before pitching the fresh yeast its been carbing for the last 2 weeks?
 
So I took a sample yesterday of this pilsner and its a real butter bomb still, after 4 weeks at 34 and 72 hours at 72. I am going to krausen the beer over the next week. What is the procedure for doing this? How much starter wort to how much dry Nottingham (the only yeast I have on hand). Also should I degass before pitching the fresh yeast its been carbing for the last 2 weeks?

Any help with this would be great.
 
Based on my experience, a qt. of actively fermenting wort should be a good amount. If you have a choice, use a lager yeast. If not, oh well.....
 
As for using unfermented wort and adding yeast I am not sure. I know that true krausening is using fermenting wort which already has the active yeast present. For this I have a formula that has worked perfectly for many of beers I've done. A few things first: with proper fermentation at the correct temperatures and handling it is safe to assume, with out testing, that during fermentation the beer naturally absorbs 1 volume of CO2. If shaken or often agitated it might be less. That is on the skill of each brewer to decide. Also1 degree Plato drop gives off 2.5 volumes of CO2.

Equations:
(D*A)/B=C. Then,
(C*Z)/X=Y

A.Volume of CO2 needed in finished beer
B. 2.5 is the volume of CO2 dropped per 1degree Plato
C.Degree Plato needed to prime the beer.
D. Volume of CO2 saturation already in the beer (or assumed level usually 1.0)

X.Plato of fermenting beer - degrees Plato of the final gravity of the finished beer.
Y. Gallons of fermenting wort needed to prime (Z)sized keg/cask.
Z. The gallon size of keg.

If you still plan on using unfermented wort I would suggest using this equation for an estimate and add just a little amount of yeast or at least make a starter.
 
As for using unfermented wort and adding yeast I am not sure. I know that true krausening is using fermenting wort which already has the active yeast present. For this I have a formula that has worked perfectly for many of beers I've done. A few things first: with proper fermentation at the correct temperatures and handling it is safe to assume, with out testing, that during fermentation the beer naturally absorbs 1 volume of CO2. If shaken or often agitated it might be less. That is on the skill of each brewer to decide. Also1 degree Plato drop gives off 2.5 volumes of CO2.

Equations:
(D*A)/B=C. Then,
(C*Z)/X=Y

A.Volume of CO2 needed in finished beer
B. 2.5 is the volume of CO2 dropped per 1degree Plato
C.Degree Plato needed to prime the beer.
D. Volume of CO2 saturation already in the beer (or assumed level usually 1.0)

X.Plato of fermenting beer - degrees Plato of the final gravity of the finished beer.
Y. Gallons of fermenting wort needed to prime (Z)sized keg/cask.
Z. The gallon size of keg.

If you still plan on using unfermented wort I would suggest using this equation for an estimate and add just a little amount of yeast or at least make a starter.

However, this appears to be for priming the beer. The poster above wanted to reduce diacetyl, a different issue. The yeast consumes the diacetyl, so adding actively fermenting wort is pretty important.
 
In my readings, when krausening beer ment to prime with fermenting wort. When doing so it is known to clean up the yeast as you mentioned in the package. I don't know the term for it, but repitching fermenting wort and let it do it's a thing before carbonating and packaging ,it would still do a good job of cleaning it up. In that case I would follow your advise on the volume. At least if you want to krausen it again you the the formula. Good luck and keep us posted on the outcome.
 
Generally when you do what you describe it's called "priming with gyle" and actively fermenting wort is not used. But there are variations on the technique.
 
I know, there are a ton of variations to every step of brewing and most work well one way another. When I worked at a brewery and was give the cask duties & we always used fermenting wort/gyle to prime our bright beer. That was the method used and worked flawlessly. That's where I learned this equation. Another method for this would be know your yeast an attenuation rate, do the math and package it at the right moment that when it finishes it will have produced the correct volumes. I find the other way much easier.

As for adding fermenting wort to clean up byproducts like diacteyl, I just got done reading a book from a brewer writen in the early 1800s and they did this to every batch wheater it needed it or not, but added the fermenting gyle right before it hit terminal gravity.
 
Denny said:
Based on my experience, a qt. of actively fermenting wort should be a good amount. If you have a choice, use a lager yeast. If not, oh well.....

Thanks, I'll give this a go over the weekend. I am currently bringing the beer up to room temp and purging the co2. I'll update in a few weeks with the results.
 
OK, I have the starter going but how long do I wait to pitch it into my Pilsner? 1 quart starter with 1 packet of Nottingham.
 
FYI I've made pilsners with that Rahr 1-row (is it the 1.7L stuff?) Came out as an almost perfect bopils. I did not use any other malt. Wyeast 2001 Pils Urquell. I've made several batches. I didn't get any diacetyl, but then I don't think I can taste diacetyl.

I've got an identical batch with Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner fermenting now for comparison. I've done a protien rest with all my pilsners at 120F. This new batch is split between 2001 and W34/70.
 
FYI I've made pilsners with that Rahr 1-row (is it the 1.7L stuff?) Came out as an almost perfect bopils. I did not use any other malt. Wyeast 2001 Pils Urquell. I've made several batches. I didn't get any diacetyl, but then I don't think I can taste diacetyl.

I've got an identical batch with Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner fermenting now for comparison. I've done a protien rest with all my pilsners at 120F. This new batch is split between 2001 and W34/70.

report back on your impressions. I'm curious how the 34/70 dry yeast compares, it would be nice to save money for my next Bo Pils if the results are good.
 
34/70 is the most popular lager strain in the world so it has a fantastic track record if pitched properly at the right temps.
 
34/70 is the most popular lager strain in the world so it has a fantastic track record if pitched properly at the right temps.

this is true, but sometimes the process of making a strain dry will slightly alter the yeast. I have used 34/70 in darker lagers and it was fine but there are stronger malt flavors to hide off tastes that a yeast may throw off. In a very light beer like a BO Pils there is not much to hide a slight odd flavor.
 
Denny said:
Wait til you think it's about at high krausen, then pitch it.

Well that was a waste of a packet of yeast. There was just the smallest layer of krausen when I went to bed and it had totally dropped out and finished fermenting by the time i woke up. I guess I try again earlier in the morning so that I can monitor more closely.
 
OK, I got the yeast starter going this morning waited about 4 hours and there was a thick krausen sitting on top of the wort so I pitched it into my Pilsner. The yeast appears to be working purely due to co2 off gassing that wasnt occuring before it pitched the krausened starter. I am headed to San Diego on Tuesday so I'll let the yeast do its thing until then at which point i'll pull a sample and decide whether to chill and carb or let it keep working.
 
OK, Butter flavor seems to be gone atleast significantly reduced, but now I have a very strong Green apple nose. Should I just let this age even longer at room temp or should I start the lager process all over again?
 
OK, Butter flavor seems to be gone atleast significantly reduced, but now I have a very strong Green apple nose. Should I just let this age even longer at room temp or should I start the lager process all over again?

Sounds like acetaldehyde,which is a sign of incomplete fermentation. Give it time to ferment out, then start the lagering process again.
 
Denny said:
Sounds like acetaldehyde,which is a sign of incomplete fermentation. Give it time to ferment out, then start the lagering process again.

That is what I thought. I'll leave it until I get back from san diego on the 23rd.
 
Put the Pilsner in the fridge on July 25th after opening the keg and smelling the beer, I didn't detect any acetaldehyde in the sample I pulled so I thought I was safe. I just pulled at pint on 8/4 and get a massive smack of green apple on the nose. Since I krausened with Nottingham should I expect that acetaldehyde flavor to subside through a longer lagering process. The beer itself actually tastes between ok to good (It's not undrinkable). Most of the diacetyl is gone if not all of it, I need to have my wife taste it she is much more sensitive to the flavor then I am (she can detect diacetyl in a commercial white wine that has only touched oak for 3 days). I really just want more saaz hops, should I dry hop this beer just bring out that Saaz aroma?
 
I am curious if anyone thinks the green apple will go away. It has been lagering since July 25th sure not too long but I figured the green apple would go away. It seems to be getting stronger. Any thoughts?
 
Hey there,

I wanted to report to you on my hard water lager (boPils). The bitter is accentuated in an odd way that isn't working for the beer right now so I am continuing to lager (started lagering 6/23). Basically I will try to wait it out but it looks like I won't be chasing bopils very often if this doesn't clean up. Sucks that I may have to use distilled to get a good bopils lager. I am really hoping it doesn't affect my marzen lager I put in the chamber last week.

As for the green apple I am not sure if it will age out as I have no experience with it. Hoping someone will post.
 
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