A Russian Cider Maker looks for advice

Hi! I live in Russia. Here we`ve got a lot of apples, but there are few people making cider. That`s why I need some advice.

My cider making looks easy:
- Pressing apples (in September and October);
- Putting fresh juice in a carboy, adding yeast and closing it with an air-lock;
- Racking off after 5-7 days and putting it back under the air-lock;
- After the fermenting is over (3-4 weeks), I put cider in big bottles (2-5 litres). Usually it is clear by this moment.
- In late December I do the final racking off and bottle the cider in small bottles.

I never add sugar, because I`ve never heard about using sugar in cider making in England, France or Spain.
I don`t use any special brewing supplies (like pectic enzyme, malic acid etc.), because it`s hard to get them in Russia. It`s hard to buy special cider yeast too. I usually use Saf-Levure yeast for baking and drinks (it`s written on the sachet). Sometimes I use wild yeast. I pour some fresh juice in a little plastic bottle, put some apple peel inside and leave it for 3-4 days in a warm place. Then I add this to the juice in carboy.

Now there go the PROBLEMS.

1. This year I tried "Munton`s" beer brewing yeast. The fermenting was OK, but after it was done, the cider didn`t clear. After 6 weeks the cider is still cloudy. It`s dry, but it doesn`t taste like ready. What shall I do now? Add more sugar and restart the fermentation? Try to clear it by adding some special chemicals? Or just to leave it for several months?
I had such a trouble while using other yeasts too.

2. How can I improve the taste of ready ciders? Some of them taste too sour. Does it make sense, to add sugar (brown, cane, beet sugar?) into bottles?

I would greatly appreciate your advice, thank you!

First suggestion is give it more time. I just legged a cider that I did at the first of July (made with apple juice). It was in primary the entire time and came out fine. I have left one that was done with real pressed cider for 6 months in primary before it dropped clear. I usually use either wyeast or white labs cider yeast but have used various other yeast with the same time table. IMHO cider needs the time to drop clear and redevelop the apple flavor after fermentation, and bulk ageing is better than bottle aging for cider. I don't do beer this long in primary but for me cider does fine

How old are your "ready" ciders? I find that a little sweetness often brings out more apple flavor. Do you use a Hydrometor? My taste preference is 1.01 to 1.015. Do you have frozen apple juice concentrate available? That is my preferred backsweetener. If you don't have preservative chemicals available (sorbate and sulphite) you will need to pasteurize to preserve any added sweetness and avoid bottle bombs.

Sounds like all you need is time, it should clear on it's own. I don't even bother to rack my cider for a full month, sometimes more. It always clears on it's own, always. I don't use any fining agents. I do like my cider sparkling, so I prime & bottle it like beer. It's always clear, carbonated & tasty. I'm pretty sure yours will be too, if you just give it more time. BTW, do you ever age your ciders? You might be surprised how tasty they can be after a year of aging.
Regards, GF.

So, as far as I can see, I just need some patience. The cider must clear by itself. Right? But still I`d like to know, why the other ciders cleared during 3 weeks and taste well and this cider doesn`t? What could be wrong with it?

Mr. roadymi, I cannot buy in a store frozen apple juice concentrate. What else could be used for backsweetening?

Mr. GF, how do you get a sparkling cider? When the fermentation is over the cider is absolutely still, there`s no carbon in it.
Maybe I should put in some sugar during the bottling? This will produce CO2 by starting a new fermentation and backsweeten the cider.
Or there are other ways of backsweetening and getting a sparkling cider?

Don't have any cider input...
What part of Russia are you in Mike?

You can use any regular juice to backsweeten it will just dilute the abv more than the concentrate would.

Any sugar will work to backsweeten, honey is particularly nice if available. I just prefer the concentrate because it adds the apple flavor.

My suggestion if you want sweet and sparkling is as follows.

Sweeten to your taste preference with sugar of choice. Add additional 140 grams / 19 liters for carbonation.

Do you have plastic soda bottles available? It is easiest to use 1 as a test bottle to determine when to pasteurize. When it gets hard, pasteurize the glass bottles. Sticky about technique for pasteurizing at top of page.

Mike_Sautkin said:

Mr. GF, how do you get a sparkling cider? When the fermentation is over the cider is absolutely still, there`s no carbon in it.
Maybe I should put in some sugar during the bottling? This will produce CO2 by starting a new fermentation and backsweeten the cider.
Or there are other ways of backsweetening and getting a sparkling cider?

Click to expand...

You got it mostly right Mike. Adding a little sugar just before bottling is called "priming". It doesn't backsweeten at all, but it does give the yeast just enough sugar to generate the proper amount of CO2 for carbonation.

I always prime & bottle cider just like I do beer, turns out great. I like my cider to be sweet/tart & fizzy, so I usually prime my cider like an American ale according to this info:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter11-4.html

Thought you might find it useful. Now if you want a sweet, sparkling cider, you''l have to either backsweeten with a nonfermentable sweetener, like Splenda (maltodextrine) or Stevia; then prime & bottle.

OR You could pasteurize your bottled cider. I've never done this, but there are many on this site who have, with great success. You can learn more about that here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-pics-193295/

Hope this info helps. Regards, GF.

i would add 2 things- first racking the cider after 5-7 days doesn't sound like a good idea to me, sounds like it comes from an old school homebrew ale recipe. cider takes longer to ferment generally, why not leave it to finish before racking. it will continue to ferment if you separate the cider from the yeast cake at the bottom but it will slow way down. sometimes people want to slow their fermentation but i like to let mine go strong to the finish. then i like to leave mine until the yeast are mostly visibly settled out, then rack once and let the cider clear.
second, there is the chance that you have problems clearing because of pectin but i personally have never had such a problem, and have made lots of cider with no pectic enzyme, and they have always cleared in time. but for whatever reason every batch takes a different amount of time. some are clear within a month and some take 2-3 months to get really clear. so indeed patience is key here, but also chilling the cider for a few days to a very low temperature after it is completely done fermenting might help drop yeast to the bottom. good luck

Mike_Sautkin said:

...

Mr. roadymi, I cannot buy in a store frozen apple juice concentrate. What else could be used for backsweetening?

...

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If you want to use apple juice concentrate for backsweetning, you can make it yourself.
When you have pressed the apples to must/juice, you take some of the apple must in a plastic bottle with a little air room in the top (because the fluid will expande when frozen).
You put the bottle af applemust in the freezer. When frozen, you place the bottle upside sown in a container to collect the apple must as it melts.
When about half of the bottle is meltet you have a block of ice back in the bottle (to throw away) and in your container you will have concentratet the applemust/juice. =frozen apple juice concentrate.

dinnerstick said:

i would add 2 things- first racking the cider after 5-7 days doesn't sound like a good idea to me, sounds like it comes from an old school homebrew ale recipe. cider takes longer to ferment generally, why not leave it to finish before racking. it will continue to ferment if you separate the cider from the yeast cake at the bottom but it will slow way down. sometimes people want to slow their fermentation but i like to let mine go strong to the finish.

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I think Mike is trying to make very traditional and simple cider and in that regard when you make french cider you would make a racking after 5-7 days to remove some yeast cake and nutrition to the yeast e.g. nitrogen (and also place the cider rather cold) because you want the fermentation to go slow, as that will give you a cider that is more aromatic with a bit of sweet and more fruty/apple taste.

Cidre said:

I think Mike is trying to make very traditional and simple cider and in that regard when you make french cider you would make a racking after 5-7 days to remove some yeast cake and nutrition to the yeast e.g. nitrogen (and also place the cider rather cold) because you want the fermentation to go slow, as that will give you a cider that is more aromatic with a bit of sweet and more fruty/apple taste.

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that's true, but i consider that a more advanced technique, especially if eventually trying to stall the fermentation and leave sugar. getting a strong healthy fermentation is an easier strategy for the beginner in my opinion.
cheers

Halbrust said:

Don't have any cider input...
What part of Russia are you in Mike?

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I live in Nizhny Novgorod (on Volga, 420 km to the East from Moscow).


As for backsweetening. In my town there`s a home brewer`s shop, where I can buy dextrose "Mr. Beer Booster". Can I use this stuff to make ciders sweeter and avoid new fermentation? Is it possible to use brown sugar or honey for backsweetening? Or they will be eaten up by the yeast?


As for sparkling ciders, is there any other ways exept of adding a bit sugar during the bottling?

Mike_Sautkin said:

I live in Nizhny Novgorod (on Volga, 420 km to the East from Moscow).

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Near Lake Ilmen, yes?

Mike_Sautkin said:

As for backsweetening. In my town there`s a home brewer`s shop, where I can buy dextrose "Mr. Beer Booster". Can I use this stuff to make ciders sweeter and avoid new fermentation? Is it possible to use brown sugar or honey for backsweetening? Or they will be eaten up by the yeast?

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Dextrose, honey, brown sugar will all be eaten by yeast. For backsweeting you have a few options. Potassium sorbate will kill yeasts then u can rack off yeast and on to sugar. If your shop does not have it or if your like the op and can't get it, cold crash or pasteurize your cider to kill yeast then back sweeten.

If you Want to carbonate that's easy if you don't Want to bottle carb, use a keg!

Artifical sweeteners (Apsertaine/Equal, etc) will not be eaten by the yeast, nor will lactose- although wild yeast might eat that, lacto bacteria certianly will. So those can be used to sweeten, but each has its own aftertaste. I've heard that lactose tastes milky, so it probaby would clash with a cider.

I'd also be concerned with cold crashing not killing all the yeast. Pasturizing should (see link in prior post). Cold crashing with potassium sorbate and meta bisulfate should do the trickhowever, because any yeast that survies the crash should be inhibited by the sorbate and meta bisulfate.

As for clearing, a simple degassing of the cider should help, although using some bentonite (if the LHBS has it). Bentonite is a type of grey clay, mixing it in with the cider (or wine) gives the yeast something in suspenion briefly to settle on and become a larger clump and fall out of suspension in the cider. - larger being a relative term here. Either way, degassing can help as the CO2 will help keep the yeast clumps in suspension.

Halbrust said:

Near Lake Ilmen, yes?

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No. Ilmen lies close to NOVGOROD. It`s in the North-West of Russia.
I live in Nizhny Novgorod. "Nizhny Novgorod" means "Down New City". You have to go a bit down the map to find it 8)

Thanks for the clarification, and good luck on yuor cider.

I read something about using prunes to stop fermentation. I think. Do a search about fruits used to stop fermentation.

In the beginning I wrote about the trouble with clearing my cider. Well, I decided to restart fermentation by adding new pressed apple juice to dry cider (4 litres to 5 litres of cider). This worked well. The mixture started fermenting and gave much sediment in several days. In 2 weeks the mixture got fully clear.
How can I explain this process? I made the first cider using Munton`s beer brewing yeast (UK). It was dry, harsh and cloudy. After refermentation it became clear and more tasty. Why didn`t it clear during the first fermentation? What was missing? what was wrong? Did I put too much yeast?

Now I`ve still got a lot of this harsh and cloudy cider. I was given an advice to leave it in a cool place till May, so that it clears by itself. But will it improve the taste? I doubt it..

What shall I do? Leave it as it is? Or restart fermentation like I did? I`ve got no more apples (or I`ll have to buy it). The juice sold in a store may contain preservatives, which may kill the yeast. Can I use sugar instead of fresh juice? What kind of sugar?
And still I don`t know how to improve the taste of ready cider, if it tastes too sour.

Hey mike you still dealing with your sour cider?

Mike_Sautkin said:

In the beginning I wrote about the trouble with clearing my cider. Well, I decided to restart fermentation by adding new pressed apple juice to dry cider (4 litres to 5 litres of cider). This worked well. The mixture started fermenting and gave much sediment in several days. In 2 weeks the mixture got fully clear.
How can I explain this process? I made the first cider using Munton`s beer brewing yeast (UK). It was dry, harsh and cloudy. After refermentation it became clear and more tasty. Why didn`t it clear during the first fermentation? What was missing? what was wrong? Did I put too much yeast?

Now I`ve still got a lot of this harsh and cloudy cider. I was given an advice to leave it in a cool place till May, so that it clears by itself. But will it improve the taste? I doubt it..

What shall I do? Leave it as it is? Or restart fermentation like I did? I`ve got no more apples (or I`ll have to buy it). The juice sold in a store may contain preservatives, which may kill the yeast. Can I use sugar instead of fresh juice? What kind of sugar?
And still I don`t know how to improve the taste of ready cider, if it tastes too sour.

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I'd set some of that cloudy cider aside & leave it be. Let time work for you. Then treat the rest like you did before. Best of both worlds.
Regards, GF.

Apple champagne:
4 gal cider
1 pkg champagne yeast
5# dark brown sugar
1-4 inch piece cinnamon stick
French oak cubes

That recipe I just posted worked out real nice for me this year. I started it back in October and now its a little piece of awesome. I only have 2 liters left from the batch as I've been drinking off it since mid November. I also used pectic enzyme and some yeast nutrient but you said that was tough to get a hold of so I omitted it from the one I posted. Here is the full one if anybody wants it.
Apple wine:
4 gal cider
1 pkg champagne yeast
1 table sp tannin
1 table sp pectic enzyme
1 table sp yeast nutrient
5# dark brown sugar
1-4 inch piece cinnamon stick
French oak cubes

Brewer be ware! This is some high test stuff! Makes wonderful applejack too.