The great E. coli debate

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C2H5OH

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MOD EDIT: Split from another thread.


One of the worst pathogens you could ever have in your brew is Escherichia Coli.(Ecoli) Found in ALL human feces. This is an anaerobic bacteria, and if found in your brew this is not only dangerous IT CAN LEAD TO SERIOUS ILLNESS AND/OR DEATH. Because we brew in an anaerobic environment(lack of O2) this pathogen will feel right at home in our fermenters.

The take home message from this is, make sure you wash your hands well after using the bathroom.(Even if all you did was touch the doorknob and sink handles to wash your hands.)

...AND NEVER STORE USE/STORE ANY OF YOUR CARBOYS/EQUIPMENT IN AN UNSANITARY ENVIRONMENT.
 
THIS IS NO JOKE!!![/SIZE]

One of the worst pathogens you could ever have in your brew is Escherichia Coli.(Ecoli) Found in ALL human feces. This is an anaerobic bacteria, and if found in your brew this is not only dangerous IT CAN LEAD TO SERIOUS ILLNESS AND/OR DEATH. Because we brew in an anaerobic environment(lack of O2) this pathogen will feel right at home in our fermenters.

The take home message from this is, make sure you wash your hands well after using the bathroom.(Even if all you did was touch the doorknob and sink handles to wash your hands.)

...AND NEVER STORE USE/STORE ANY OF YOUR CARBOYS/EQUIPMENT IN AN UNSANITARY ENVIRONMENT.
You CANNOT get E. Coli poisoning from beer. The pH is too low and the alcohol kills off the microbes. NO KNOWN PATHOGENS CAN SURVIVE IN BEER. or any other fermented beverage, for that matter.
 
You CANNOT get E. Coli poisoning from beer. The pH is too low and the alcohol kills off the microbes. NO KNOWN PATHOGENS CAN SURVIVE IN BEER. or any other fermented beverage, for that matter.

haha, this made me laugh


smmcdermott, I'll presume you're laughing at the top statement. His entry IS as silly as saying the earth is flat.


I'm glad this topic came up.(again) Someone needed to dispel some of the foolish misconceptions about beer.

The notion that bacteria(e.coli) can't grow in beer is a total fallacy and a complete misconception.

Without getting all 'brainy' on you, I'll try to state this in the simplest terms I know how.

You state: "The pH is too low" in beer to grow e.coli.

WRONG!

FACT:
-e.coli lives in the bowel.
-Highly acidic stomach contents empty into the bowel where the e.coli not only survives, but thrives.


Conclusion: e.coli CAN live in acidic conditions. (A much more acidic environment than beer.) If it couldn't, you'd eventually die after your first good case of diarrhea.



You state: "The alcohol kills off the microbes."

WRONG!

Unless you're talking about percentages of 90% or more, (Enough to overcome the bacterial load presented. Which I'm certain you're not.)

FACT:
-e.coli is in the gut.
-When you drink beer,(or any other alcoholic beverage) alcohol ends up in the bowel and is absorbed by the gut.


Conclusion: Do I have to spell it out, or are you catching on?

How many hundreds(perhaps thousands) of post are there presenting anecdotal evidence demonstrated by pictorial exhibits that PROVE pathogens can grow in beer???

If there was "no risk of infection in beer", as you state, then we are all very well practiced in the art of futility by sanitizing our equipment and putting a lid/airlock on our fermenters.(I'll presume you don't, since your confident pathogens can't grow in beer.)

...and if you don't believe me, read this...
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080627223327AASQGQs

PS: Did you ever wonder how Apple Cider Vinegar(Acetic ACID) was discovered/made???

Why are there no other "Beer Authorities" speaking up about this important topic?
 
smmcdermott, I'll presume you're laughing at the top statement. His entry IS as silly as saying the earth is flat.


I'm glad this topic came up.(again) Someone needed to dispel some of the foolish misconceptions about beer.

The notion that bacteria(e.coli) can't grow in beer is a total fallacy and a complete misconception.

Without getting all 'brainy' on you, I'll try to state this in the simplest terms I know how.

You indeed, are a funny one. I'll give you that maybe some E. coli can live in young beer, but fermented beer is pushing it. 4-10% ethanol is not even close to physiological conditions. Even if they did take over, the beer would stink and you wouldn't want to drink it. However, if you wanted to drink it anyway, what you fail to mention is that E. coli is not typically an enteropathogen. That is the rare case (see O157:H7 strain). In fact, there are more than 10 times as many bacterial cells in the body (gut and skin) than there are human cells. These bacteria are, in fact, considered to be our first line of defense against pathogenic species of bacteria. I will not idly stand by while you malign our most gracious and gutwrenching gatekeepers!! ;)

If you'd like to have some E.coli sensitivity training, you might check out this information packed website:
http://www.cdc.gov/nczved/dfbmd/disease_listing/stec_gi.html


...and if you don't believe me, read this...
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080627223327AASQGQs

Why are there no other "Beer Authorities" speaking up about this important topic?

Yahoo answers, really? All I have to say is How is babby formed?
 
Apple Cider vinegar is made with acetobacter, not e. coli.

While I'm not able to comment on e. coli itself what I've generally seen is that nothing pathogenic can grow in beer. There are multiple strains of e. coli, not all of which are pathogens. Among other sources, Scientific American confirms that no pathogens grow in beer.

For instance, e. coli O157:H7 has only spread via uncooked meat, consumption of contaminated sprouts, lettuce, salami, unpasteurized milk, swimming in or drinking sewage contaminated water, and fecal-oral transmission.

However, it's also been shown that when e. coli O157:H7 is exposed to wine it gets inactivated within 60 minutes.

Many of the articles on beer are behind subscription walls, but abstracts appear to indicate that e. coli is inactivated after one to two hours of contact. Positive factors for killing e. coli include having melanodins in the beer and more than .3 mg/ml of hops.

If you could cite some sources (aside from the Yahoo! link which requires a login) I'd be interested to read what you've found. What I see is that pathogenic e. coli can't survive in beer or wine
 
You indeed, are a funny one. I'll give you that maybe some E. coli can live in young beer, but fermented beer is pushing it. 4-10% ethanol is not even close to physiological conditions. Even if they did take over, the beer would stink and you wouldn't want to drink it. However, if you wanted to drink it anyway, what you fail to mention is that E. coli is not typically an enteropathogen. That is the rare case (see O157:H7 strain). In fact, there are more than 10 times as many bacterial cells in the body (gut and skin) than there are human cells. These bacteria are, in fact, considered to be our first line of defense against pathogenic species of bacteria. I will not idly stand by while you malign our most gracious and gutwrenching gatekeepers!! ;)

If you'd like to have some E.coli sensitivity training, you might check out this information packed website:
http://www.cdc.gov/nczved/dfbmd/disease_listing/stec_gi.html




Yahoo answers, really? All I have to say is How is babby formed?

Your attempt to thrall me with your acumen has failed.

Point #1: When you drink 4-10% alcohol beer on an empty stomach,(which I'm sure you've done) guess what... It enters the bowel at the same percentage. It only becomes a "Physiological level" after it has been absorbed and diluted with the rest of your bodily fluids, thus reducing the percentages to much less. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE GUT, NOT PHYSIOLOGICAL LEVELS!

Point #2: The statement made by me is that bacteria can grow in beer. The potential for a 'bad bug' is always a possibility. Are you going to role the dice and hope that the serotype found in your beer isn't the virulent type that leads to your demise? Do you not watch the news and hear of people dying of lettuce inoculated with e.coli??

To answer your question: I love e.coli, just when it is in my gut not my beer.

You sound brave, so you should stop defending your beer from pathogens. (virulent or not)

Point #3: The Yahoo answers was just to give a real world example. You retort with a yahoo answers page written by CLEARLY poorly educated people, really?

Maybe this will drive that point home better...


Prove it to yourself: Take a small amount of YOUR beer and a small amount of YOUR feces,(or your pet's) and place both in a sterile container. Store at room temperature. In a couple weeks, report back to us with your results...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
smmcdermott, I'll presume you're laughing at the top statement. His entry IS as silly as saying the earth is flat.


I'm glad this topic came up.(again) Someone needed to dispel some of the foolish misconceptions about beer.

The notion that bacteria(e.coli) can't grow in beer is a total fallacy and a complete misconception.

E. coli are not the only bacteria. Lactobacillus, for example, do grow very well in wort, and are the most alcohol tolerant of the bacteria.

Without getting all 'brainy' on you, I'll try to state this in the simplest terms I know how.

Hit me with the brains! I have a PhD. ;)

You state: "The pH is too low" in beer to grow e.coli.

WRONG!

FACT:
-e.coli lives in the bowel.
-Highly acidic stomach contents empty into the bowel where the e.coli not only survives, but thrives.

Conclusion: e.coli CAN live in acidic conditions. (A much more acidic environment than beer.) If it couldn't, you'd eventually die after your first good case of diarrhea.[/COLOR]

Not quite. E. coli live in the GI tract. The stomach acids get pretty much neutralized by bile juices. However, E. coli can live at pH 4 ish. While we mash at about pH 5.2, beer itself gets even lower, below 4, IIRC. So, very hard for even E. coli to grow.


You state: "The alcohol kills off the microbes."

WRONG!

Unless you're talking about percentages of 90% or more, (Enough to overcome the bacterial load presented. Which I'm certain you're not.)

FACT:
-e.coli is in the gut.
-When you drink beer,(or any other alcoholic beverage) alcohol ends up in the bowel and is absorbed by the gut.

Not quite right again. E. coli, under optimal conditions, can handle ethanol concentrations up to 6% by volume. But the GI tract, by the time the beer you drink gets to the bugs, is not 6% ABV.

Still, beer is not a favorable enviroment. The pH is very low, which will stress the organisms. Add hop oils and other factors, and it is certainly not optimal for E. coli growth. I think the science says that, basically, E. coli do not grow in wort.

Conclusion: Do I have to spell it out, or are you catching on?

How many hundreds(perhaps thousands) of post are there presenting anecdotal evidence demonstrated by pictorial exhibits that PROVE pathogens can grow in beer???

If there was "no risk of infection in beer", as you state, then we are all very well practiced in the art of futility by sanitizing our equipment and putting a lid/airlock on our fermenters.(I'll presume you don't, since your confident pathogens can't grow in beer.)

But by pathogens we mean organisms that are pathogenic to humans. Not just "bacteria that can cause an infection in beer". Lactobacilli grow very well in wort. They infect the wort and sour it. But they are not pathogenic to humans. They do not cause disease. Do you see the difference?


Read this:

Beer has been recognized for hundreds of years as a safe beverage. It is hard to spoil and has a remarkable microbiological stability. The reason is that beer is an unfavorable medium for many microorganisms due to the presence of ethanol (0.5&#8211;10% w/w), hop bitter compounds (approximately 17&#8211;55 ppm of iso-&#945;-acids), the high content of carbondioxide (approximately 0.5% w/w), the low pH (3.8&#8211;4.7), the extremely reduced content of oxygen (<0.1 ppm) and the presence of only traces of nutritive substances such as glucose, maltose and maltotriose. These latter carbon sources have been substrates for brewing yeast during fermentation. As a result, pathogens such as Salmonellae typhimurium and Staphylococcus aureus do not grow or survive in beer [Bunker, 1955. H.J. Bunker, The survival of pathogenic bacteria in beer. In: Proc. Eur. Brew. Conv. Baden-Baden, Elsevier Publishing Company, Houston (1955), pp. 330&#8211;341.Bunker, 1955].

However, in spite of these unfavorable features, a few microorganisms still manage to grow in beer. These, so-called beer spoilage microorganisms, can cause an increase of turbidity and unpleasant sensory changes of beer. Needless to say that these changes can affect negatively not only the quality of final product but also the financial gain of the brewing companies.

A number of microorganisms have been reported to be beer spoilage microorganisms, among which both Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria, as well as so-called wild yeasts. Gram-positive beer spoilage bacteria include lactic acid bacteria belonging to the genera Lactobacillus and Pediococcus. They are recognized as the most hazardous bacteria for breweries since these organisms are responsible for approximately 70% of the microbial beer-spoilage incidents [Back, 1994]. The second group of beer spoilage bacteria is Gram-negative bacteria of the genera Pectinatus and Megasphaera. The roles of these strictly anaerobic bacteria in beer spoilage have increased since the improved technology in modern breweries has resulted in significant reduction of oxygen content in the final products. Wild yeasts do cause less serious spoilage problem than bacteria but are considered a serious nuisance to brewers because of the difficulty to discriminate them from brewing yeasts.

[My bold]

link




This goes to a Yahoo Business page. Maybe not what you meant?

PS: Did you ever wonder how Apple Cider Vinegar(Acetic ACID) was discovered/made???

Why are there no other "Beer Authorities" speaking up about this important topic?
So, do you consider yourself a beer authority? ;)

Beer is safe. Humans have been drinking beer for ages, before we understood yeast and pathogenic bacteria. For a long time beer was actually safer than water, as the process of boiling the wort and fermenting it removed the bad microrganisms.

Please don't scare people unnecessarily. Beer is safe!
 
Lambic is a special type of Belgian beer obtained by spontaneous fermentation. The micro-organisms occurring during the first month of lambic fermentation were counted using several selective media. During this period a mixed flora is present in which the Enterobacteriaceae predominate. They were isolated from samples of lambic of different ages originating from different breweries and identified using the minitek identification system. Much variation may occur in types of Enterobacteriaceae: Klebsiella
aerogenes, Enterobacter cloacae, E. aerogenes, Escherichia coll, Citrobacter freundii, A-D group bacteria and Hafnia alvei are found during the first month of fermentation. E. cloacae is found most frequently followed by K. aerogenes. After 30 to 40 days all Enterobacteria die off because of the activities of yeasts. Lactic acid and acetic acid bacteria are found in very low numbers during the first month of fermentation;
Staphylococciand Streptococciare not present.

Link

So, in a lambic, E. coli can actually grow in wort, but they are killed off, presumably by the action of the wild yeast, or possibly due to a drop in the pH to 4. A lambic can ferment for up to two years, so plenty of time for the E. coli to die.
 
C2H5OH, why are you being so alarmist?

While your statements appear to be an attempt at fact, you lack evidence and citation. Please provide evidence that someone has gotten a threatening E. coli infection from poor sanitation practices in a brewery (or provide a scientific case study on the topic).

Most importantly, please stop shouting and ranting with big bold/red text.
 
E. coli are not the only bacteria. Lactobacillus, for example, do grow very well in wort, and are the most alcohol tolerant of the bacteria.



Hit me with the brains! I have a PhD. ;)



Not quite. E. coli live in the GI tract. The stomach acids get pretty much neutralized by bile juices. However, E. coli can live at pH 4 ish. While we mash at about pH 5.2, beer itself gets even lower, below 4, IIRC. So, very hard for even E. coli to grow.


etc,etc,etc...

You sir are a HUGE buzz kill. This went from fun to kill me in 2.2sec
 
E. coli are not the only bacteria. Lactobacillus, for example, do grow very well in wort, and are the most alcohol tolerant of the bacteria.



Hit me with the brains! I have a PhD. ;)



Not quite. E. coli live in the GI tract. The stomach acids get pretty much neutralized by bile juices. However, E. coli can live at pH 4 ish. While we mash at about pH 5.2, beer itself gets even lower, below 4, IIRC. So, very hard for even E. coli to grow.


etc,etc,etc...

You sir are a HUGE buzz kill. This went from fun to kill me in 2.2sec
I'd say it more so went from "it can kill me" to the truth :D I thank the people that answer the questions and debunk wrong information with fact. Not "I think I understand but don't really but will call it fact anyway."
 
Please Shut Up About E. Coli, You Have Ruined This Thread...start A New Thread If You Want To Debate This Lame Topic
 
I guess I could start a "Can you get E. Coli from getting dookie in your beer?" thread.
 
The dilemma here is not whether people will be scared away from home brewing by my posts. (You know, and I know that will never happen.) Your concern should be in preserving what the law currently allows. (Believe me, &#8220;law-people&#8221; are always looking for a reason to take away your rights/privilege.) All it would take to get the ball rolling the wrong way is when the media does report that someone died from a poorly executed homebrew. It IS possible. How many people die each year from the complications caused by diarrhea alone? Ever heard of hypovolemia? Heart attacks caused by major electrolyte imbalances? Watch the news; football/basketball players fall victim every year to these issues. For all we know people do die from their poorly executed homebrew, it&#8217;s just not as &#8216;sensational&#8217; as the death of a high paid basketball player.

The purpose of my postings is to preserve the current good name of homebrewing, by keeping it a safe hobby/lifestyle. When I read that a LHBS has a carboy fermenting away in a public bathroom with human waste splattered on it, that sets off a major red flag. When a fellow home brewer with a purported PhD says: &#8220;No bacteria can grow in beer.&#8221; that sets off another big red flag. That speaks volumes to the false sense of safety/complacency about homebrewing.

When properly executed, homebrewing is a safe hobby/lifestyle. I called upon the &#8220;Beer Authorities&#8221;, you know the ones that maintain the &#8220;It&#8217;s fine, just drink it&#8221; attitude, to listen and support in keeping this hobby/lifestyle safe. I have brewed for 3 ½ years and made over a hundred batches of infection-free brews. (No upset stomach, no diarrhea, and certainly haven&#8217;t been sent to the hospital.) Though that doesn&#8217;t make me an expert, it does reflect that I do know what I&#8217;m doing. Can all of you say that? Yes, I could go on about how many letters are after my name too, and how many microbiology class I&#8217;ve had, and how I work with infectious disease workers and growth media (Tryptic soy broth, Agar&#8230;) in a class A-100 sterile environment every day at work, but I still don&#8217;t think that would get the point across. Wort/beer inherently IS a growth media and furthermore, the low levels of alcohol found in beer simply aren&#8217;t enough to eradicate ALL bacteria. Though some bacteria can be general considered innocuous, given the right opportunity and in the right circumstances homebrew can lead to illness ranging from diarrhea to death. You can bank on that.

To those of you that think I am being an alarmist, you&#8217;re misunderstanding my efforts. The ironic part of all of this is, when someone like myself steps up to improve the practice of homebrewing, why is there always a group of stick-pokers/torch-carriers at the ready to pile on and tear it all down. All I am asking is that you don&#8217;t continue delude yourselves and falsely inform newcomers to the hobby and how harmless homebrewing is on ALL levels. JUST BE TRUTHFUL.

Thanks to those who stay diligent in this quest.
 
Alright, that is it, we are done talking about e. coli in our beer. I don't put poop in my beer, that is just me, and I sanitize everything so I am not worried about it. If you are that worried about it, you have the name of the place, go protest his store or something and stop ruining an awesome thread.
 
When a fellow home brewer with a purported PhD says: “No bacteria can grow in beer.” that sets off another big red flag.


Since you placed that bit in quotation marks, it means you are saying he literally said that. Please cite the post number where he said that. I bet you won't, because he didn't.
 
To those of you that think I am being an alarmist,

You are being an alarmist. I can pretty much guarantee that know one here poops in their beer. So what's the point?

Oh, and don't run with scissors.
 
Alright, that is it, we are done talking about e. coli in our beer. I don't put poop in my beer, that is just me, and I sanitize everything so I am not worried about it. If you are that worried about it, you have the name of the place, go protest his store or something and stop ruining an awesome thread.

Check the record; I have been a proponent to the levity and jocularity of this thread. My warnings weren't meant for the people like yourself who do have proper technique. They are meant for those who aren't as informed as you.

Note: Buzz-kill episodes can be avoided when important statements by contributors aren't being mocked. If you check the record, you're the one who brought the debate on bringing it all to a crash.

My apologies to all for using large red text.
 
When a fellow home brewer with a purported PhD says: “No bacteria can grow in beer.” that sets off another big red flag. That speaks volumes to the false sense of safety/complacency about homebrewing.

No one actually said that though, you just made up that strawman.


As far as I can find, there is not a single case on the record of someone catching a pathogen from beer.
 
All it would take to get the ball rolling the wrong way is when the media does report that someone died from a poorly executed homebrew. It IS possible.... For all we know people do die from their poorly executed homebrew, it’s just not as ‘sensational’ as the death of a high paid basketball player.

So all you have is your opinion that it is possible that someone has died as a direct result of a bacterial contamination in a homebrew. No links to any medical references that say that it has ever been documented?

The purpose of my postings is to preserve the current good name of homebrewing, by keeping it a safe hobby/lifestyle. When I read that a LHBS has a carboy fermenting away in a public bathroom with human waste splattered on it, that sets off a major red flag.

I agree. I would not to shop there or drink that beer. Although I would highly doubt that the beer had a bacterial contamination due to the carboy being splattered with urine or even feces.

When a fellow home brewer with a purported PhD says: “No bacteria can grow in beer.” that sets off another big red flag. That speaks volumes to the false sense of safety/complacency about homebrewing.

Show me where I said no bacteria can grow in beer. A direct quote please, with a link.

What I have stated is that beer is generally considered safe. I even provided a link to the scientific literature to back up my claim. Pathogenic bacteria are extremely unlikely to be able to survive in beer.

A non-pathogenic bacteria can definitely grow in wort. I have had a (presumably) lactobacillus infection myself, when some Notty did not take off. The smell of the resultant "beer" was overwhelming, and I was not going to drink it. Had I done so, I might well have had diarrhea. But that would not be due to a pathogenic bacteria.

Do you understand the difference between pathogenic bacteria and non-pathogenic bacteria? Between a wort being infected with a contaminating microorganism and a human being infected with a disease-causing organism?

Though some bacteria can be general considered innocuous, given the right opportunity and in the right circumstances homebrew can lead to illness ranging from diarrhea to death. You can bank on that.

No, I can't bank on that.

I want evidence that a bacterial contamination in beer can lead to death. By making this claim and not backing it up you are being alarmist.

Or even direct evidence that a pathogenic bacteria contamination in beer can lead to diahhrea. And no, one Youtube video of someone pouring something into the dirt and saying he suspects an infection in it might have given him an upset stomach is not evidence. It is anecdote. I also happened to note that the guy pouring the beer out did not appear to be very dead.

To those of you that think I am being an alarmist, you’re misunderstanding my efforts. The ironic part of all of this is, when someone like myself steps up to improve the practice of home brewing, there is always a group of stick-pokers/torch-carriers at the ready to pile on and tear it all down. All I am asking is that you don’t continue delude yourselves and falsely inform newcomers to the hobby and how harmless homebrewing is on ALL levels. JUST BE TRUTHFUL.

Thanks to those who stay diligent in this quest.

You are being alarmist if you claim a bacterial infection in beer can lead to death.

Yes we have to sanitize. Or we get a spoiled batch of beer, and have to tip it out. Lactobacillus in our bottles can cause gushers and an off taste. Sanitation is VERY important. I'm not denying that. I support you in that quest.

I just think you are going over the top by suggesting homebrew will cause death due to a bacterial contaminant. This is a claim that needs to be backed up by scientific evidence, not bold super-sized red caps.
 
Virtually all the literature I can find on Pubmed using various permutations of search terms such as beer wort pathogen bacteria death fatality etc have all turned up no evidence of a link between beer and bacterial disease. Many talk about beer-spoilage by microorganisms.

One paper talked about hop beta acids (HBA) as being antimicrobial towards Listeria monocytogenes. The only other paper in Pubmed that talks about literia and wort has, well, A.J. Wort as one of the authors. Using beer instead turned up a few more: 8 total, some written by people called Beer.

One did suggest that beer does not kill Listeria. I could not access the paper itself, but given the very few references that link Listeria to beer, I strongly doubt that there is a real threat of getting listeriosis from homebrew. A specific search for listeriosis and beer did not turn up anything damning either.

So, I'm done. I can keep pulling up negative evidence all day, although I was looking for papers that would refute my claim that beer is safe (from a microbiological point of view: cirrhosis of the liver is still a real threat from beer!)

If you want to convince me that homebrew can harbor pathogenic bacteria you are going to have to provide some positive evidence for your claim. Not just speculation.
 
FYI (well basically cause I finally had to look it up and I'm sure others were wondering too)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]

Presenting and refuting a weakened form of an opponent's argument can be a part of a valid argument. For example, one can argue that the opposing position implies that at least one other statement - being presumably easier to refute than the original position - must be true. If one refutes this weaker proposition, the refutation is valid and does not fit the above definition of a "straw man" argument
 
You CANNOT get E. Coli poisoning from beer. The pH is too low and the alcohol kills off the microbes. NO KNOWN PATHOGENS CAN SURVIVE IN BEER. or any other fermented beverage, for that matter.

I would have a very hard time convincing myself that Beer is not capable of harboring pathogens.

What little I do know is that beer presents most pathogens with a hostile environment or maybe it's better state that there are limiting factors in the beer such as low pH, alcohol, and the partial pressure of carbon dioxide. None of which individually are any guarantee against infection of nor harboring pathogens, but combined they create a milieu which most pathogens find unaccommodating.

As an object lesson: There are yeasts which are very dangerous. Yet the yeasts in beer seem to get along just fine. Yes they are a different genus of yeast but still ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I'll keep cleaning and sanitizing or sterilizing whatever word seems to be popular on whatever given day.


As an informational aside:
I was sitting in a car with a dear friend, He was then the head of the Human Molecular Biology department at the Sackler in Tel-Aviv.
We were talking about the merits of the 9MM versus the 22 caliber.
Guys - go figure.
The idea of vodka and the flue popped into my head.
Guys - go figure.
So I asked my friend whether passing a bottle of vodka would or not also transmit a flue infection.
He said that the alcohol in vodka is not nearly strong enough at 80 proof to kill pathogens like the flue. I was not sufficiently prescient to inquire about e-coli.

But The great god of all knowing everything-ness (google) turned this tidbit up
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Mustard+flour+kills+E.+coli+O157:H7+in+ground+beef-a0152739185
 
Agreed, you won't find morbidity reports on homebrew. Do you think that a coroner's report would list beer or homebrew as a causative agent? That's like the coroner writing the cause of death was ice when a car skids in a motor vehicle accident.
 
Oh god, first it was adding boiling wort directly to a glass carboy, now it is needless fear mongering about e-choli in brewing.

Ok for the sake of all the noobs on here, who are terrified that one wrong look at their fermenter and it is going to turn poisonous and kill them,

Get it straight people, no known pathogens can grow in your beer....nothing in your beer can kill you. Or make you sick!!!!!


In fact it was because water was often dangerous to drink that brewing became popular to begin with, because the brewing process killed most pathogens including e-coli

That's why the even brewed table beers, the third runnings from a partigyle session so that the children could have a drink that was safe to consume....

I came across this from a pretty well known and award winning homebrewer railing against a fellow brewer (it was on one of those "color coded" brewboards where they are a little less friendly than we are.) I just cut and pasted it and stuck it in a file...here it is.

Can you get a PATHOGEN from beer. No. NO *NO* Did I make that clear? You have a ZERO chance of pathogens in beer, wine, distilled beverages. PERIOD!

Pathogens are described as organisms that are harmful and potentially life threatening to humans. These are some 1400+ known species overall encompasing viruses, bacteria, fungi, protozoa, and helminths. Of that group, we are only interested in those that can be foodborne. Quite simply, if it can't survive in food, it isn't in beer. That knocks out all but bacteria and fungi. Viruses need very specific circumstances to be passed around... like on the lip of a glass or bottle, not the beer in it. **Ahhh...CHOOO!**

Pathogens as a rule are very fastidious beasts. Meaning that they want very specific temperatures, acidity, nutrients and other conditions to thrive.

Bacteria that *could* live in wort, cannot survive even a little bit of fermentation. There are several reasons for this. One is in the 'magic' of hops. It is the isomerized alpha acids that provide a preservative effect to the beer, which happens to inhibit pathogens! Good deal for fresh wort!

Another reason is the drop in pH from fermentation. Next, yeast emit their own enzymes and byproducts, all in an effort to make the environment hostile to other creatures. The major one is alcohol, of course, but their enzymes will break down less vigorous organisms and they become sources of trace nutrition. Now the latter is very minor compared to the effect of alcohol, but it exists! Most of the time these enzymes work on the wort, not organisms until late in the process. Good deal for beer! ...uh, wine too.

Oh, Botulism specifically... did you know that this is an anaerobic pathogen? It's toxin is one of the few that is broken down by boiling. Did you know tht it is strongly inhibited by isomerized alpha acids, even in water? Since fresh wort has a healthy amount of oxygen in it, the beastie cannot even get started, then once the O2 is used up, it doesn't have a chance against the hops or the yeast.

All that is left are a handful of acid producing bacteria that'll ruin a batch of beer. Overall, there are less than 200 organisms that can survive in beer and lend flavor effects. None of these for very long, or very often. Lambic being the sole exception, and if pathogens *could* survive, that'd be the style where you find 'em.

Engrave this in your mind, and tell your fellow homebrewing buddies to ignore idiocy like this thread....If something toxic could come from our homebrewing, it wouldn't be a legal hobby!!!!!
 
Rev, your opinion is your right. If I'm wrong, start preaching that people don't need to sanitize their bottles or kegs anymore.

Homebrewing, when properly executed, is as safe(or safer) than cooking, but we all know people become ill from improperly prepared food daily. Not fear-mongering, just offering the truth.

PS: Stay tuned for the 'boiling wort' video.
 
Rev, your opinion is your right. If I'm wrong, start preaching that people don't need to sanitize their bottles or kegs anymore.

Sanitization is about making sure your beer doesn't get soured, doesn't develop aecetobactor or Lactobasicilus which make your beer undrinkable, NOT PATHOGENIC......NOT POISONOUS, NOT E-COLI INFESTED....The very act of fermentation, of boiling water, of adding hops which are an antiseptic, and the change in PH from fermentation, insures nothing pathogenic can grow in beer.

It's important to remember that one of the reasons we have beer today (one of the oldest beverages in existence) is because it was made to be drunk in places where drinking the WATER was deadly, where there was e-coli....By boiling the wort, adding hops (which is an antiseptic), changing the ph, and pitching yeast, you killed of any microorganism that good be harmful.....in fact the third runnings of the brewing process was fermented at an extremely low gravit 1-2% ABV, and it was called "table beer" or "Kid's Beer" this is the stuff that people drank with meals...it was their water replacement, like Iced tea or soda pop...because again the fermentation process insured thatit was safer than the water.

So even a beer that may taste and smell like a$$ is NOT going to be harmful if consumed.


Oh by the way, the only correlation between Beer and E-coli, has been connected to playing beer pong.....

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1001568/beer_pong_a_threat_to_your_health_.html?cat=25
 
C2H50H
I think you should just offer $10,000 to the first homebrewer that can brew a batch of beer with an E. coli infection without intentially trying to infect it with E. Coli. the first one that does come up with one gets all the money. consider it your very own X prize for beer.
 
C2H5OH, what exactly is your agenda? You have yet to provide any solid facts to support what is becoming an increasingly shaky hypothesis. No one suggested that sanitation is not important. They are simply refuting some of your argument, which you have yet to successfully defend.

Everyone, stop using giant bold text. It doesn't help.
 
Wait, this is the same guy that posted the heating a glass carboy thread? How in the hell can you go on and on advocating that something like that is safe and then try to get people all worked up in a tizzy over bacteria in beer?

I guarantee you that a new brewer is FAR MORE LIKELY to be seriously injured by your glass carboy trick than by dying from bacteria in beer.

Sure, we can all agree that the beer fermenting in the bathroom is fricken disgusting, but the dude making it probably has been doing it for years.

I also think that all Budweiser, Ommegang Chocolate Indulgence and some other bad beers must be infected with e-coli because they all taste crappy. :D
 
C2H5OH, what exactly is your agenda?

No agenda. Just a fellow brewer looking out for another.

In life, there are many highly unlikely events. Finding bacteria in your beer may be one of them. Winning the lottery may be another. Which do you think is more likely, bacteria ending in a beverage that ends up making someone sick, or you or I winning the lottery? Either way, it would be a life changing moment.

When people state bacteria can't grow in beer, that's when I get concerned.
 
I don't think that anybody stated that bacteria can not grow in wort. I've had a lacto infection myself. However, it didn't kill me.

note to self- don't do a beer swap with people who **** in their beer.
 
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