Why late-hop beers meant for aging?

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Judochop

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FACT: Hop aroma and flavor are the first things to fade in a beer as it is aged.

QUESTION: As these aromas and flavors ‘fade’ from obviousness, do they still leave some kind of imprint on the beer that would not have been there otherwise?

In other words, if the plan is to brew a big, English-style Barleywine, which, once bottled, won’t see the light of day for at least 12 months, is there any point in putting those 2 ounces of Fuggles in near the end of the boil? If all flavor/aroma is just going to dissipate into nothingness by the time the bottle is drunk, why not save yourself the $$$? Or, do those few hops make some difference to the overall impression of the beer way down the road?

Thoughts? It’d take some serious dedication to do a side-by-side experiment to find out. Has anybody done one, or heard of anyone doing one? Results?
 
An analogy i use is cooking spaghetti sauce or soup. You can all the ingredients and cook it up on the stove top and eat it right away. At that point the spices are easily discernible. Leave it sit in the fridge for a couple days, and the flavors meld a LOT more and make the overall experience more complex.

So, with beer, you will lose that big hop nose in an aged IPA, for example. But in my opinion, the flavors will meld into something much more complex given time.
 
cactusgarrett said:
So, with beer, you will lose that big hop nose in an aged IPA, for example. But in my opinion, the flavors will meld into something much more complex given time.
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That is what my intuition tells me too. Plus, I simply would like to believe it, since it adds a kind of romanticism to the notion of aging.
 
I don't do any 0-min additions in big, aged BWines, but I think you can still taste the 15min+ additions.
 
Judochop said:
Why would that be the case? Why would the partially boiled hop oils hang around longer than the ones that bypass the boil altogether?
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Once under a full boil, essential oils are released from the hops. Boiling imparts "flavor" while post boil and dry hopping imparts "aroma". Aroma may fade...but the flavor will live on.
 
BierMuncher said:
Once under a full boil, essential oils are released from the hops. Boiling imparts "flavor" while post boil and dry hopping imparts "aroma". Aroma may fade...but the flavor will live on.
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How does boiling “impart” flavor? I thought the oils were responsible for both flavor and aroma, and when you boil the oil for 10-15 minutes, you destroy the lighter more sensitive ‘aroma’ part of the oil, but leave behind the ‘flavor’ part of the oil.
ie. It’s not as if boiling actually creates the flavor, in the way that boiling creates bitterness, but only that boiling removes the aroma (leaving behind the flavor). That is how I understand it. Am I fundamentally wrong?
 
Judochop said:
How does boiling “impart” flavor? I thought the oils were responsible for both flavor and aroma, and when you boil the oil for 10-15 minutes, you destroy the lighter more sensitive ‘aroma’ part of the oil, but leave behind the ‘flavor’ part of the oil.
ie. It’s not as if boiling actually creates the flavor, in the way that boiling creates bitterness, but only that boiling removes the aroma (leaving behind the flavor). That is how I understand it. Am I fundamentally wrong?
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The longer you boil a hop, or more accurately, hold it above 140F, the less aroma effect it will have on the beer. This is true.

In addition to this, the longer you boil a hop, the more bitterness it imparts, but the less flavor of the hop makes it into the final beer. After only 5 min, you will taste a lot of the hop flavor, the citrusy or earthy type flavor. But after 30 min, you pretty much just have bitterness.

This has to do with the fact that the acids make it into the beer near immediately, but over time they "isomerize" into bitterness.

EDIT: Realized I missed part of your question. As I understand it, you are actually converting the aroma to flavor with some heat, and it happens quite quickly at boiling temperatures. Dry hopping can also impart some flavor but it takes much, much longer (days), but it retains more of the aroma due to the lack of heat.
 
DKershner said:
The longer you boil a hop, or more accurately, hold it above 140F, the less aroma effect it will have on the beer. This is true.

In addition to this, the longer you boil a hop, the more bitterness it imparts, but the less flavor of the hop makes it into the final beer. After only 5 min, you will taste a lot of the hop flavor, the citrusy or earthy type flavor. But after 30 min, you pretty much just have bitterness.

This has to do with the fact that the acids make it into the beer near immediately, but over time they "isomerize" into bitterness.
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I’m solid on the bitterness thing. My confusion is regarding the differences between aroma additions and flavor additions. A lot of the literature seems to suggest that there’s something which happens to the hop when you boil it for 10-15 minutes that CAUSES flavor, when, that is not exactly accurate (as I understand it).

To the point… in your first post here DKershner, you said you wouldn’t add aroma hops at flame out for a big BW that you planned to age. Instead you’d add hops @ 15 for ‘flavor’. But both flavor and aroma come from the same oils. If you tossed those hops in at flameout instead, shouldn’t you be getting the flavor as well as the aroma (the latter which would quickly fade, but the former which would hang around quite a bit longer)?

In that example, why is it advantageous to toss those hops in @ 15 min as opposed to flame out?

Let me reformulate my question. Why are late/flameout/dry hops considered 'aroma' hops specifically? Aren't they actually flavor+aroma hops?
 
Judochop said:
I’m solid on the bitterness thing. My confusion is regarding the differences between aroma additions and flavor additions. A lot of the literature seems to suggest that there’s something which happens to the hop when you boil it for 10-15 minutes that CAUSES flavor, when, that is not exactly accurate (as I understand it).

To the point… in your first post here DKershner, you said you wouldn’t add aroma hops at flame out for a big BW that you planned to age. Instead you’d add hops @ 15 for ‘flavor’. But both flavor and aroma come from the same oils. If you tossed those hops in at flameout instead, shouldn’t you be getting the flavor as well as the aroma (the latter which would quickly fade, but the former which would hang around quite a bit longer)?

In that example, why is it advantageous to toss those hops in @ 15 min as opposed to flame out?

Let me reformulate my question. Why are late/flameout/dry hops considered 'aroma' hops specifically? Aren't they actually flavor+aroma hops?
Click to expand...

I edited above since I realized I missed some of your question.

On the hops and their names:
30min+: Bittering
3-29min: Flavoring
0-3min: Aroma...ing

The only hops I know of that can impart flavor and aroma are dry hops, and it doesn't impart near as much flavor as flavor hops. It also takes far longer and the flavor differs from if you added flavor hops. Of course, there are some periods of slight overlap, but this is mostly negligible in the grand beer scheme.

To this point, the flavor of the hops actually changes as you boil them as well. The flavor of a 10min and 20min hop addition may be similar in magnitude, but the taste will be different. As far my experience goes, the less boiled hop addition would be brighter or more harsh than the more boiled one. This is why you see people with more than one flavor addition.
 
DKershner said:
As I understand it, you are actually converting the aroma to flavor with some heat, and it happens quite quickly at boiling temperatures.
Click to expand...
If that is true, DK, that explains away SOOOO much confusion I've been harboring for several years now! I hope your understanding is correct, b/c the sensation of liberation I'm feeling now is wonderful! :ban:

I swear... no article or book I've ever read on late hop additions - and there have been many - EVER just came out and said it as plainly as that. Every piece of instruction I've read only goes so far as to say WHAT: "use a hop addition between 10 and 30 minutes for flavor", but none ever gave me the WHY.

Here's to hoping you're right. :mug:
 
Judochop said:
If that is true, DK, that explains away SOOOO much confusion I've been harboring for several years now! I hope your understanding is correct, b/c the sensation of liberation I'm feeling now is wonderful! :ban:

I swear... no article or book I've ever read on late hop additions - and there have been many - EVER just came out and said it as plainly as that. Every piece of instruction I've read only goes so far as to say WHAT: "use a hop addition between 10 and 30 minutes for flavor", but none ever gave me the WHY.

Here's to hoping you're right. :mug:
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Even if the aroma isn't being converted...it is being removed and the flavor is being extracted as you boil, so the net effect is the same even if it isn't an actual conversion. Although, I think it is. I can tell you that a hop that sits in boiling water for mere seconds imparts almost no flavor, but would give off some aroma.

Either way, I am sure someone who knows more than me will show up in a bit.
 
DKershner said:
Even if the aroma isn't being converted...it is being removed and the flavor is being extracted as you boil, so the net effect is the same even if it isn't an actual conversion.
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'Extraction' is just as satisfying an answer as 'conversion' to my question. Either way, you are saying that some boiling is actually required to promote flavor (whereas I always thought the flavor was there in the oils the instant the hop hits the wort, and further boiling only removed aroma, but didn't necessarily 'add' flavor).

Hopefully someone versed in the chemistry here will show up with details. It would give meaning to my 20 minute additions. Not that I ever doubted the truthfulness of the theory of flavor hop additions. I've experienced it firsthand. I just never understood why.

Thanks DK. You've turned on a light for me. :mug:
 
Judochop said:
'Extraction' is just as satisfying an answer as 'conversion' to my question. Either way, you are saying that some boiling is actually required to promote flavor (whereas I always thought the flavor was there in the oils the instant the hop hits the wort, and further boiling only removed aroma, but didn't necessarily 'add' flavor).

Hopefully someone versed in the chemistry here will show up with details. It would give meaning to my 20 minute additions. Not that I ever doubted the truthfulness of the theory of flavor hop additions. I've experienced it firsthand. I just never understood why.

Thanks DK. You've turned on a light for me. :mug:
Click to expand...

:mug:

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