Lager yeast at warm temps

My area for primary fermenting an oktoberfest batch will be at around 65F. Will this ruin the batch? If not, what will change with the taste?

It may develop some 'fruity' sweetish esters. Won't ruin the beer, but won't be true to style either.

I sure wouldn't dump it!

It will make a lager no matter what, just not as good a lager that it can be at proper temps.

i second what mikey said. lots and lots of esters. you should somehow try and keep it cool while fermenting, use a bucket filled with cold water and ice maybe. my advice though would be to not brew lagered beers until you have a frig for it. they just don't come out very well at that high a temp. i would use a german ale yeast, or maybe a american ale just cause its so clean with it instead of the marzen yeast which requires low temps. it won't be to style, but neither would one with the correct yeast at incorect temps. i think you have a better chance of producing a really good beer using a clean ale yeast, and then cold storing whatever you can to get it that lagered smoothness and cleaness.

drengel said:

i think you have a better chance of producing a really good beer using a clean ale yeast, and then cold storing whatever you can to get it that lagered smoothness and cleaness.

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I second this.

Kai

I don't have the ability to lager. I made one this fall using Wyeast German Ale Yeast (1007). It was probably in the low 70's when it fermented. When it was ready to drink my wife and I compared it to a bottle of Paulaner Oktoberfest. It was amazing how similar the two beers were. They were almost indistinguishable (although naturally I though mine was better ).

boo boo said:

It will make a lager no matter what, just not as good a lager that it can be at proper temps.

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Not true at all. It needs to be lagered (stored for extended periods at near freezing temperatures) to be called a lager.

Mikey said:

Not true at all. It needs to be lagered (stored for extended periods at near freezing temperatures) to be called a lager.

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Well, then call it lager like beer. What he is after, is a cleanly fermented beer which is a characteristic of lager beers. There are many good Ale yeasts out there that can get you close to this.

Kai

yea, you need to be careful using some lager yeast at warmer temps. some will leave a HUGE Juicy Fruit gum flavor/armoa. it's best to use a clean ale or German ale/Kolsch yeast as mentioned. why risk it....

Just so you guys know, anchor steam is supposedly a LAGER, but it is not fermented nor conditioned like any lager should be. My understanding is it is brewed and conditioned just like an ale, but using lager yeast strains.......

GABrewboy said:

Just so you guys know, anchor steam is supposedly a LAGER, but it is not fermented nor conditioned like any lager should be. My understanding is it is brewed and conditioned just like an ale, but using lager yeast strains.......

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from white labs:
This yeast is used to produce the "California Common" style beer. A unique lager strain which has the ability to ferment up to 65 degrees while retaining lager characteristics. Can also be fermented down to 50 degrees for production of marzens, pilsners

it is a special yeast strain that should still be fermented no higher than 65 and still needs a period of lagering or "cold conditioning". like other true lager yeast, it can be used at higher temps. just be aware that it will not taste like a true cali common if fermented at higher temps.

GABrewboy said:

Just so you guys know, anchor steam is supposedly a LAGER, but it is not fermented nor conditioned like any lager should be. My understanding is it is brewed and conditioned just like an ale, but using lager yeast strains.......

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Never heard anyone call Anchor Steam a 'lager' before, even their own website makes no mention.

Even if someone was using 100% lager ingredients doesn't mean the beer will necessarily be a lager when it's finished. You have to follow the technique too..........

Mikey said:

Never heard anyone call Anchor Steam a 'lager' before, even their own website makes no mention.

Even if someone was using 100% lager ingredients doesn't mean the beer will necessarily be a lager when it's finished. You have to follow the technique too..........

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anchor steam is NOT a lager. it's a "steam" beer (special lager yeast @ ale temperatures), and Anchor Brewing owns the copyright on that term, which is why it's often refered to as the "california common" style of beer.

-walker

Mikey said:

Not true at all. It needs to be lagered (stored for extended periods at near freezing temperatures) to be called a lager.

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From John Palmers. How to Brew


The lagering temperature and duration are affected by both the primary fermentation temperature and the yeast strain. These are the four primary factors that determine the final character of the beer. Some general guidelines for fermentation times and temperatures are listed below:

1. Check the yeast package information for recommended fermentation temperature(s).
2. The temperature difference between the primary phase and the lager phase should be roughly 10°F.
3. Nominal lagering times are 3 - 4 weeks at 45°F, 5 - 6 weeks at 40°F, or 7 - 8 weeks at 35°F.
4. Stronger beers need to be lagered longer.
5. Nothing is absolute. Brewing is both a science and an art

A common question is, "If the beer will lager faster at higher temperatures, why would anyone lager at the low temperature?" Two reasons: first, in the days before refrigeration when lager beers were developed, icehouses were the common storage method - it's tradition. Second, the colder lagering temperatures seem to produce a smoother beer than warmer temperatures. This would seem to be due to the additional precipitation and settling of extraneous proteins (like chill haze) and tannins that occur at lower temperatures.
It would seem that it would make a lager, just not as good a lager as one brewed at lower temps.

the extra esters and diacetyl produced are the by-product of fermenting lager yeast at ale temperatures. they can give some funky flavors. therefor defeating the purpose of lagering.

DeRoux's Broux said:

the extra esters and diacetyl produced are the by-product of fermenting lager yeast at ale temperatures. they can give some funky flavors. therefor defeating the purpose of lagering.

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That's true.

Reading Noonan's treatise on lager brewing, as well as this months BYO special on lagers contradicts Palmers views to a large degree.

I've never heard of a supposed 10 degree difference between fermentation and lagering phase and the concept of lagering at higher temperatures to 'speed things up' seems counterproductive. If higher temperatures for shorter periods give the same effect, while not just boil it for 10 secs and have it ready immediately?

That article in BYO by Bill Pierce I have just read and can't find anything wrong with what he said. I have read How to Brew and am currently reading Noonans New Brewing Lager Beer and nothing conflicting comes to mind. Could you expand on your comments a little and give some examples. BTW I think you are right in saying that higher temps to speed up lagering is backasswards.

Sure, warming up lager speeds up the "lagering" phase. And while I'm giving out advice, the best way to catch a sparrow is to shake a bit of salt on its tail.

My understanding is that almost all of the yeast we have access to is bottom-fermenting, which would at some point have been called lager yeast. But we have strains which are temperature sensitive, and the high temp ones we call ale yeast (even though they aren't top-fermenting ale yeasts of olde) and the lower temp ones we call lager yeast. Get them above their comfort zone, and you get fruity beer.

My experience is it all depends on the variety of yeast AND the ingredients. I love making Common/Steam beer using a California Lager yeast but fermenting at higher then normal lager fermenting temps. Likewise I make lots of Cream Ale and do the reverse with an ale yeast. What you call it and how you categorize it doesn't really matter unless you are in a comp. and worried about judges and style. I think a Fest beer with some extra esters could be nice, but watch out for sulfur production. The bottom line rule for me is "Know your yeast"

boo boo said:

Could you expand on your comments a little and give some examples.

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Where I disagree with Palmer is his point about the fixed 10 degree delta temp between fermentation and lagering, and also the decreased lager times required is using higher temps in the secondary.

The BYO article first states 40*F as the upper end of lagering temp without associating it with fermentation temp, and then quotes Noonan (conveniently) mentioning that lagering times are to be linked with alc% rather than temp.

My own experience parallels the above.

Brewpastor said:

What you call it and how you categorize it doesn't really matter unless you are in a comp. and worried about judges and style.

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It also matters when you are trying to describe your beer accurately to others or when sharing information on forums like this. It serves no purpose to give a 'noob' misleading guidelines.

I hate style n*zis as much as the next guy, but it doesn't hurt to describe things accurately.

BTW <- what kind of smiley is this? A Weizenguy maybe ?

Mikey said:

I hate style n*zis as much as the next guy, but it doesn't hurt to describe things accurately.

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Here here!

i agree 100%. educate and then play with the realm of possibilities!

Kai said:

Well, then call it lager like beer. What he is after, is a cleanly fermented beer which is a characteristic of lager beers. There are many good Ale yeasts out there that can get you close to this.

Kai

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I agree. I made a lager like beer using SafeAle 56 yeast, which is a very clean yeast. It turned out quite well. Fermented at about 70.

timdsmith72 said:

I agree. I made a lager like beer using SafeAle 56 yeast, which is a very clean yeast. It turned out quite well. Fermented at about 70.

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Why would you describe it as a lager like beer rather than a light ale ( like a Koelsch)?

Mikey said:

Why would you describe it as a lager like beer rather than a light ale ( like a Koelsch)?

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Because I didn't know any better? lol.
I really wasn't sure what to call it when I made it.

Mikey said:

It also matters when you are trying to describe your beer accurately to others or when sharing information on forums like this. It serves no purpose to give a 'noob' misleading guidelines.

I hate style n*zis as much as the next guy, but it doesn't hurt to describe things accurately.

BTW <- what kind of smiley is this? A Weizenguy maybe ?

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All valid points well explained, Cheers.