Need Some Real Expert Advice

I'm hoping some of you guys that have been home brewing a while can help me get on the right track. Here's the deal: I'm on my first batch right now. To get started I went to the HBS and got my equipment. I told the guy there I wasn't sure what recipe and was worried about brewing 5 gallons of beer I don't like. He asked what beer do I like so I told him Svytury's Ekstra. This is a beer brewed in Lithuania. It gets average reviews but I really like it. He said this was a style of Dortmunder and he said he thought he could duplicate it. He put together the ingredients. The grain was either Belgium Pilsner or German Pilsner. The extract he called Dutch Light Lager. The hops used were Hallertau Tradition hops ( bittering), Czech Saazhops (flavoring) and Czech Saazhops (finishing). The yeast was Safale 5 with something called BruVigor added on top of the yeast.

Now, I made the wort and left it in the primary for a week then siphoned it into the secondary. I left it there for 2 weeks and then bottled it. It’s been in bottles for 2 weeks. Yesterday I cooled a couple of bottles down for several hours and then poured me a glass. It's beer alright but I am not impressed with the flavor. I know it probably needs more time in the bottle but what I'm talking about is the basic flavor. This isn't an issue of anything going wrong with the batch, it is simply the recipe. Don't get me wrong, the beer is drinkable and I will drink it, but it’s not what I was shooting for at all. It has a kind of bitter and overly sweet flavor at the same time that hits you right away. There is a slight metallic flavor after you swallow which I am attributing to the fact that it needs to condition more.

So my question is. How can I get the beer I want without having to make 5 gallons and waiting 2 months to find out I don't like it? The beer I want doesn't have to be exactly like the Svytury's, that is just the store bought beer I like and I would like to make my own brew that comes close to that flavor. Is anyone familiar with the Svytury's beer? I'm sure that an expert can taste a beer and know what ingredients are needed to make it, however I am far, far from an expert.

Any thoughts and advice is appreciated.

Dennis

Not an expert by any means...but if size and time is what you're after...perhaps you are THE guy that a Mr. Beer is for? I mean that with all due respect...but from what I have read, they do produce a small batch in a relatively Short amount of time...and For me, 2 months is just the beginning of some beer. I've got stuff in the cellar that I won't even taste for another year.

As above, not an expert, but experienced...

The style you are going for is difficult to recreate without lagering capabilities, and in my opinion, the sweet flavor you are tasting is from the malt extract. It is more evident in lighter beers, like this one.

In my non expert opinion; you will need to brew all grain and truly lager the beer if you want to recreate this specific brew. Lagering is a process where the beer is fermented for a longer period of time using lager yeast, at low fermentation temps. Primary is the typical few weeks, but the 'lagering' stage can be up to a few months and needs to be done at a low temp, 40-ish. You would need to convert a fridge to a lagering chamber to do this, or come up with some other DYI lagering method.

It might be more worth your while to just buy this beer, and perhaps try brewing some simple ales to begin. Then you can see if you like this hobby without going to the trouble and expense of obtaining all of the equipment necessary to lager.

Yep, you need to lager this, and trial and error is pretty much the way to go.

Might be the wrong hobby for you

If your not willing to be patient (one week in the primary is not sufficient) and try different things, homebrewing probably isn't for you. You'd be better off buying some Svyturys Ekstra and drinking that.
Nothing wrong with that.

Lots of us 'non experts' here, and I am definately one of them... Having said that, trying to brew a clone of something you reeeeaaalllyyy like can drive yo nutso. I think blacklab has it right. Buy yourself some of the beer you like to drink, and take a chance on another well established recipe that you might like. For me at least, I've learned a few really important lessons over my 20 years of brewing (quick math...subtract 13 year hiatus and 6 years of really BS brewing in my college apartment using all the wrong techniques, ingredients and know how and I come up with the fact that I'm really just a beginner with 30 or so batches under by ever expanding belt) and they are as follows;

1. Whatever comes out of at the end of the brewing process will be great in it's own right. The tasing and discovery of what I made is always the best part for me. It is truly about the journey. Don't look for the destination.

2. I am just learning the second lesson, which I can't stress enough. Patience is really the most important part of the brew process. Time will change the taste, body and really every aspect of your brew. Let time do it's magic.

Enjoy the journey, sanitize everything, use quality ingredients and you'll have a great time. I have even started keeping a journal with a lot of notes so that if I brew the same recipe again, I can make minor changes that will affect the outcome. I really enjoy that part of the process. If you are trying to replicate a commercial brew, you will almost certainly be let down, especially if you aren't recapturing their yeast, or using the same exact ingredients as the commercial brewery used. Do you think that they use water from Houston to make the beer? . If it's your first brew, that just exascerbates the situation.

And as everyone here (and they're all really helpful and much brighter than I am) will tell you...Relax, Don't Worry, Have A Home Brew!

Welcome to the addiction. When you find your goal (fun or replication) you just may find that you've stumbled on a really great hobby that you can share with your friends.

Welcome aboard, relax!
-E

Patience is the most important skill a homebrewer needs. No batch will be at its peak until it has conditioned for 1-2 months (or more in the case of high gravity brews). Most likely your brew is just green, and it will be much better after another 4-6 weeks in the bottles. The best solution is to take solid recipes others like that are in styles you know you will drink, brew up a bunch, and keep your pipeline full so you are drinking every batch at its peak. Once you get to that point, it's a lot more enjoyable.

Saccharomyces said:

The best solution is to take solid recipes others like that are in styles you know you will drink

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Where's the Recipe for the OE800 Clone again?

Patience is a big part of it, it will taste better in a few weeks, though it might not be the beer you wanted...

But regardless of the recipe, unless you keg, nearly all beers require at least 5-6 weeks before they are drinkable.

As to the 5 gallons deal, you can do small test batches of a recipe....get yourself either a mr beer keg or a 3 gallon water bottle, then scale any recipe down to 2.5 gallons...the nice thing about this is that you can do all grain recipes on your stovetop with a 5 gallon brewpot.

You will still need 5 weeks or so for the process to unfold.

But I gaurentee that once you hit a recipe you like as a 2.5 gallon batch, you will instantly regret the fact that you don't have 5 gallons of it....

When you get into this obsession you find out quickly that 5 gallons (2-cases) of excellent beer is reaally not alot.

Revvy said:

you find out quickly that 5 gallons (2-cases) of excellent beer is reaally not alot.

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That's not even 2 beers per night for a month.

Revvy said:

When you get into this obsession you find out quickly that 5 gallons (2-cases) of excellent beer is reaally not alot.

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Especially once your neighbors and friends discover that they like your beer better than the swill they have been drinkin'.

"That's not even 2 beers per night for a month."

BigKahuna, that is one tremendously depressing bit of infomration. Damn you abacus.
-E

Good answers from all, and I appreciate the straight talk.

I decided to homebrew because I like DIY. I make my own wooden boats. I’m a duck hunter and make my own wooden decoys. I have my own garden because I want to grow my own vegetables. All of these things take time to learn. I prefer DIY and intend to make my own beer going forward. I understand that, as with all hobbies, they can be taken as far up the ladder of complexity as one wants to go. I don’t need to go too far up that ladder, but I would like to be able to have a few recipes for good tasting homebrewed beer that I can drink and share with friends.

I don’t have a problem with a longer more professional process for brewing, once I understand how it all works. It’s kind of like you meet a guy from some foreign country and your having to try to teach him American football. It seems rather simple to you but to him it’s a lot to understand all at once.

The procedure for brewing (i.e. the timing of the fermentation, bottling etc.) was given to me by the HBS. My guess is that it was designed to be easy but not necessarily for high quality. I also got a book about brewing but that pretty much gives the same procedure so that’s what I went with. But once again, I don’t have a problem with the time involved. If I can come up with a few recipes for a beer that I like, I don’t care how long it takes to complete the brewing process.

So it sounds like I’ll just need to find an some ale recipes that I like and plan on fermenting longer and conditioning longer as well.

Dennis

McDegga said:

"That's not even 2 beers per night for a month."

BigKahuna, that is one tremendously depressing bit of infomration. Damn you abacus.
-E

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It's actually quite cool for me....I like to brew about 3 per monh...You can do the math!

man just do 2.5 gallons batches till you find a recipes you like. i have three 3 gallon glass boys and they are always filled. when i eventually make one i love, well break out the 5 gallon boy. !!!! -peace and good luck

Dennis1979 said:

So it sounds like I’ll just need to find an some ale recipes that I like and plan on fermenting longer and conditioning longer as well.

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Can't go wrong with that. Austin Homebrew and others have great recipe kits that come with good instructions which are easy to follow until you gain experience.

I like your analogy, the process end to end isn't overly complex but there are a lot of little steps to follow. In the beginning it can be overwhelming, but a few batches under your belt for experience and a little homework to improve your process each time, you will get the hang of it, and you'll have fun too.

BigKahuna said:

That's not even 2 beers per night for a month.

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Yep!! That's pretty much the low end of a weeknight for me.

Dennis-

I suggest reading "How to Brew" by John Palmer. It is a great book for the begginer and expert alike and will teach you a lot about the process. Also, if you spend some time reading on this forum you will pick up a lot of good information.

Welcome to the group!

Dennis1979 said:

So it sounds like I’ll just need to find an some ale recipes that I like and plan on fermenting longer and conditioning longer as well.

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It's hard to avoid drinking those first batches young, when you don't have a lot of equipment to have a bunch of batches lined up, and when you're just dying to drink the beer you've made. That does get easier, as you collect more equipment.

You can often find cheap fridges on craigslist. That with a reasonably priced thermostat could get you lagering for less than $100. I found a tall college-style fridge that perfectly fits one 6 gal carboy for $25. This will help you brew during the summer, too, when the temps often go so high it's very difficult to maintain a decent fermentation temp, even for ales.

Something else to try, if you can buy by the bottle in your state, is to go to a shop with a great selection, and try a bunch of different commercial beers in different styles. Take notes on which ones you like...lagers vs ales, hoppy vs malty, dry vs sweet, etc. Once you get a better idea of the kinds of beers you like in general, it'll be easier for you to select recipes that incorporate some or all of the characteristics in the beer you like. While you will probably not easily be able to recreate any of those beers, but by finding the characteristics that you like, you're more likely to consistently brew something enjoyable.

Hail to the man who likes Svyturis Ekstra!!!

Are you a fan of other LT beers like Kalnapilis or Utenos?

As really good sources of information on homebrewing, please visit:

the wiki
Palmer's How to brew (Free book online!!!)

And get a book on homebrewing for your public library. You may find it hard to wrap your head around it at first, and you may stumble upon conflicting informations here and there, but in the end you'll find a way that works for your needs.

I'm four brews old and have had a REALLY deceiving first beer, brewed from extract malt and a procedure I learned from my LHBS. Then I read. And read. And subscribed to homebrewtalk.com. I decided to brew a partial mash recipe. Went great and I'm sorry I don't have some anymore right now!! Now I did it all grain for the last 2 recipes and it's really not that hard. You just gotta get organized. Taste is also far more better.

I used BobbyM's method for all-grain. I found it to be simple and straightforward.

That said, good luck!!

jezter6 said:

Hail to the man who likes Svyturis Ekstra!!!

Are you a fan of other LT beers like Kalnapilis or Utenos?

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No I haven't but I would like to. We have a big Liquor store chain around here called Spec's but they don't carry either one of those. I'll have to see if I can find those somewhere. Any others you suggest?

Dennis

Personally, I think Utenos is the LT Budweiser.
Kalnapilis has a few good brews, but Svyturys has more than just Ekstra (although Ekstra is the best of them).

I've had relatively few others, but try to find these first - as they are the "BMC" (SUK - pun intended) of LT

Dennis,

It sounds like you have three things working against you and your beer right now: 1- lack of experience; 2- lack of patience; and 3- lack of equipment. The good news is that you will overcome the first two in time while you brew. The more you brew, the more you'll learn, and you'll be able to work with that recipe (or some other one) to get you where you want to be.

The third one is a bit trickier. As the others said, you are trying to clone a lager, so have to brew the thing like a lager. That means using a lager yeast fermented at around 55F, and then keeping the fermented beer for a few weeks to a few months at near-freezing temperatures. In Houston, that means getting a fridge or freezer that you can hook a temperature controller to and dedicate to brewing. We do it all the time, and it's not hard. It also does not have to be too costly, as someone around here is always trying to unload a fridge or freezer.

I don't know if you went to DeFalco's or one of the other stores in the area, but I don't think you got bad advice. You do have to start somewhat simply and build from there. It sounds like you are willing to stick with it a bit, and I have little doubt you'll be brewing like a champ within a year (and probably well before that).

If you want to talk with a bunch of other homebrewers, come out to a Foam Rangers meeting sometime. If you want to talk with a bunch of other homebrewers from all over the state, see some great speakers, drink some good beer, and have a lot of fun, come check out the Dixie Cup. If you come out during the judging, I'll be Doak, the guy at the Head Judge's table.


TL

I agree with number 1, definitely a lack of experience. On patience, like I said, I don't mind how long it takes. I opened the bottle this weekend just to see. I know it is early and maybe it will smooth out a little in time. We will see. From reading others here, I think next time I will let it ferment longer than the HBS recommended. I definitely don't have the equipment needed to lager. My plan is to figure out a few decent ales and if I feel like I want to go further then go all-grain and lager etc., but that obviously takes more equipment, more time and more knowledge.

I think you guys have answered my original question which is that I most likely won't be able to duplicate any beer without more sophisticated techniques and equipment. That's ok with me now that I understand that. I'll try a few ale recipes and find some things I like and go from there.

You see, I do have the bug. The reason I even asked the question is that I'm dying to make another batch and I want to do it this weekend, but I want to do better on this batch than on the first. That's why I tasted the beer yesterday because if I really liked it I would do it again but I after tasting it, I think I want something else. So right now I'm just trying to figure out what recipe to go with.

This is a great board. You all are very helpful. Thanks again.

As a side note, I started this batch right before the hurricane, then was fermenting while I was without power for 17 days. I did my best to keep the temp down but I'm sure the temps were kind of up and down during that time. I eventually got it in a tub of water and iced it down whenever I had ice but it was hit and miss. This could have an effect on the final flavor, I suppose.

Dennis

Dennis1979 said:

I agree with number 1, definitely a lack of experience. On patience, like I said, I don't mind how long it takes. I opened the bottle this weekend just to see. I know it is early and maybe it will smooth out a little in time. We will see. From reading others here, I think next time I will let it ferment longer than the HBS recommended. I definitely don't have the equipment needed to lager. My plan is to figure out a few decent ales and if I feel like I want to go further then go all-grain and lager etc., but that obviously takes more equipment, more time and more knowledge.

I think you guys have answered my original question which is that I most likely won't be able to duplicate any beer without more sophisticated techniques and equipment. That's ok with me now that I understand that. I'll try a few ale recipes and find some things I like and go from there.

You see, I do have the bug. The reason I even asked the question is that I'm dying to make another batch and I want to do it this weekend, but I want to do better on this batch than on the first. That's why I tasted the beer yesterday because if I really liked it I would do it again but I after tasting it, I think I want something else. So right now I'm just trying to figure out what recipe to go with.

This is a great board. You all are very helpful. Thanks again.

As a side note, I started this batch right before the hurricane, then was fermenting while I was without power for 17 days. I did my best to keep the temp down but I'm sure the temps were kind of up and down during that time. I eventually got it in a tub of water and iced it down whenever I had ice but it was hit and miss. This could have an effect on the final flavor, I suppose.

Dennis

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Are there other commercial styles that you like that are "easier" to make? When I say easier, I just mean ales without alot of adjuncts to lighten it up. For example, maybe an English brown ale (like Newcastle)? Do you like Sierra Nevada's pale ale? What about Blue Moon? Rogue's Dead Guy ale? How about a porter or stout?

Those are pretty "easy" to make beer styles, and you could probably manage those, especially since fall is here and temperature control should be easier. We can also provide you with recipes from our database, and walk you through the whole process.

What is it about the beer you made that you would like to change? Is it too bitter, too malty, too fruity etc...?

No I don't think I have tasted those. I don't like porter or stout.

When I try new stuff I find I like beer that comes from east Europe like the Svytury's. Also, Grolsch, Pilsner Urquell, things like that. I tried some local stuff like fat tire, st arnold and some others but wasn't real impressed.

I will try some of the ones you listed though and let you know.

Thanks,
Dennis

Dennis1979 said:

No I don't think I have tasted those. I don't like porter or stout.

When I try new stuff I find I like beer that comes from east Europe like the Svytury's. Also, Grolsch, Pilsner Urquell, things like that. I tried some local stuff like fat tire, st arnold and some others but wasn't real impressed.

I will try some of the ones you listed though and let you know.

Thanks,
Dennis

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So far, it seems like all of the beers you really like are European lagers. Those are the ones that can be the most challenging to make well! When I first started brewing, I also liked the "cleaner" tasting beers but found that my tastes have definitely changed over the years.

The next time you try a new beer, try to taste all the different things going on, and decide what it is that you like about that beer. (or don't like, as the case may be). What is it you like about Pilsner Urquell? Is it the crispness, the aroma, the body, the aftertaste, etc? That would help you translate what you like to other beer styles.

You're picking the more difficult styles to replicate at home.

A European Pale Lager...especially cloning a specific commercial recipe...is a daunting task for even the most experienced home brewer.

My advice would be to open up your palette and begin experiencing the world of ales. One thing the vast majority of homebrewers have in common is a wide appreciation of beer styles.

[EDIT] Wow...Yoop and I didn't even compare notes either...[/edit]

BierMuncher said:

[EDIT] Wow...Yoop and I didn't even compare notes either...[/edit]

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Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

Well if you want to try those difficult styles, that require lagering, you have some options...one is to go the small batch route, and use a 3 gallon fermenter that can fit in your standard referigerator (even a mr beer keg can fit on the top shelf of mine) and some of those 3 gallon jugs have a low profile.

The other option is to check out this dvd by the guys at basic brewing radio, on low tech lagering...

Low-Tech Lagering
In this DVD, we introduce you to the Low Tech Lagering System (LTLS), which will allow you to maintain consistent, controllable fermentation temperatures without the expense of purchasing a chest freezer.

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Basic Brewing™ Shop


But I agree about trying some commercial ales, and you can find plenty of recipes..since you like crisp lagers actually biermuncher has several ales that are pretty close in taste/style to Lagers, except they are Ales...I like is centennial blonde, his swambo slayer & his cream of the 3 crops recipes myself. I brew the centennial blonde quite a lot...just click on the word recipes to see what he has...Yooper has some great recipes as well, I really love her rogue dead guy clone....but I'm not sure if she has any cream type ales in her pull down.