Learning the ropes/Show me what I'm doing wrong

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

phoenixs4r

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2011
Messages
1,566
Reaction score
93
My first beer attempting to use anything but tap water is probably going to happen next weekend. Most likely Biermunchers Oktoberfast.

I'm using the EZ water calculator and just want to make sure I'm doing it right, the entire water supply I'll be using will be Deionized.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f63/biermunchers-oktoberfast-ale-ag-39021/

8.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM
5.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM)
4.00 lb Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM)
2.00 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM)
2.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM)
1.00 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM)

So, accordingly to the EZ water calc, I should be adding 10 grams of Cal Chloride, and 5 grams of epson salt. This gives me an appropriate PH in the mash, as well as bringing my Chloride/Sulfate ration above 1.3, which "may enhance maltiness" which I'm assuming = good for the style.


2 questions:

Am I doing this right? lol.

And, the sparge water addition, I get conflicting info about wether or not to add it to the HLT or to the boil.... opinions would be great.
 
I'm not a fan of adding epsom salts. You don't need the magnesium, and I like adding gypsum if I need sulfate. You may not even need any sulfate though, for an Oktoberfest.

Can you post the numbers you get from EZ spreadsheet? Like how many ppm Ca, Cl, S04 specifically?
 
Hope this works... Hmmm... came out kinda small. if I need to enlarge let me know

Untitled.jpg
 
That's hard to see, alright!

First, get rid of the epsom salt totally. Then get the chloride to under 100. You don't need "sparge additions" so uncheck those boxes.

You want calcium more or less at 50 ppm, chloride is fine pretty low (whatever it takes to get your Ca to 50 ppm) and you don't need to add any sulfate. Then let's see what you get.
 
An Oktoberfest benefits from being made with low mineral content water with the exception of some calcium chloride. Ten grams (assuming 5 gal) is a bit much. Half that or a bit less (4 grams) will probably give a more pleasing result. These beers are usually made with one of the noble hops varieties in which case you want as little sulfate as possible. Thus don't use gypsum or epsom salts. You will probably need a small percentage of acidulated malt (sauermalz) or lactic acid to get the pH down to where you want it. Start with 2%. It is best to check the actual mash pH realized with a properly calibrated pH meter. Adjust the sauermalz level according to what the pH meter reads (you can add more if it is too high; if it is too low use less the next time you brew this).
 
My wonderful and beautiful girlfriend has commandeered the computer for the evening for her studies. I appreciate the replies and will look that them tomorrow afternoon
 
The spreadsheet breaks out the concentration of the mash water and then combines the concentration of the mash + sparge water. That's a little misleading because it has you thinking about kettle concentrations instead of the water used for brewing. You don't need the sparge additions, but it's also simple to plan all your brewing water concentrations to be the same as if you had a source with that water available.

I've had success with brewing water (mash & sparge the same) with calcium as low as 36 ppm, resulting chloride is 64 ppm - it's my go-to water plan for anything with Nobel hops. That's 0.5 grams of CaCl2 per 1 gallons of water, easy to scale to actual water volumes.

I've noticed that the EZ water spreadsheet can predict a little higher then measured mash pH (15 min into mash). Not always, and there's too many grains to assign them a single pH in distilled water value so prediction is meant for rough planning and actual measurements can help with fine-tuning. If you're predicting 5.4, I'd skip any acid addition the first time. You could also scale your mash down to a very small amount and do a test, measure the pH and use that data to for the actual mash. If the test mash pH is different from the expected value on the spreadsheet, you can type over the pH of the base malt and play with that number until the predicted pH matches your measurement. Then adjust the acid to plan for the actual mash. Just remember that you overwrote the pH of the base malt when using the spreadsheet in the future for a different beer and go back to the original version.
 
I should have clarified, this is for an 11 gallon batch.

Thank you for your patience in helping me learn this stuff.

First, why no sparge additions? I thought sparging with pure soft water was bad?

Secondly, both Yooper and ajdelange referenced water addition to beer style and ingredients. Is this from personal experience or is there a reference I can pull from so I don't continually bother you per style?

Lastly, I'm pretty lucky to have 3 large supply shops in the area, MoreBeer, HopTech, and Brewmasters (Not brewmasterswarehouse). Neither seemingly stock sauermalz. Does it go by a different name? I'm assuming it's a grain?

I entered in all suggestions, and end up with this:

newbitmapimagetr.jpg
 
The sparge is just washing out the remaining sugars, conversion should be complete. All that matters with the sparge is to prevent a high pH in the mash tun and to keep the temperature <170F, your RO water with no alkalinity is perfect. Salts are sometimes skipped for the sparge water (diluting concentrations from the mash water) or just added to the boil kettle anyway. The grain is already saturated with mash water so all sparge water added to the mash tun should come out of the mash tun.

This primer has stylistic guidelines for water additions:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

You could convert these to concentrations to see what these levels using the EZ water spreadsheet.

Weyermann Acidulated malt.
 
It's likely they'll have Weyerman acidulated malt (which is sauermalz....sauermalz being the German name for acidulated/sour malt).
 
If you can't find acidulated malt, another great way to reduce mash pH is by adding a little lactic acid or phosphoric acid.

For your current mash profile, I think the Calcium is a bit lower than I'd like to see. I'd increase the CaCl2 just a bit.

As DSmith said, 100% RO or distilled water is perfect for sparge water, and no additions are necessary.

I think it's mabrungard that says he just always treats all of his water, as it's easiest for him so certainly no harm will come. I have a too-small HLT that I have to refill, so it's easiest for me to concentrate on mash pH (adding my salts to the mash) and then just sparge with RO water.
 
I think it's mabrungard that says he just always treats all of his water, as it's easiest for him so certainly no harm will come. I have a too-small HLT that I have to refill, so it's easiest for me to concentrate on mash pH (adding my salts to the mash) and then just sparge with RO water.

Out of curiousity, do you add salts to your boil kettle that would have been added to the HLT for sparge water volume used? Or, do you add all the salts to your mash water based on your final mash + sparge volume and end up running off high concentrations from your mash that are dilluted down with the sparge water?

I like to treat all the mash & sparge water the same before brewing with a couple 6 gallon buckets and measure out the salts for each.
 
Out of curiousity, do you add salts to your boil kettle that would have been added to the HLT for sparge water volume used? Or, do you add all the salts to your mash water based on your final mash + sparge volume and end up running off high concentrations from your mash that are dilluted down with the sparge water?

No, I don't add more salts to the boil kettle. But I'm really of the firm belief that "less is more" and don't overdo the sulfate anyway. I can see if someone wanted to add a ton of sulfate for flavor to the boil kettle, but even in IPAs I don't use that much gypsum anyway.
 
I think it's mabrungard that says he just always treats all of his water, as it's easiest for him so certainly no harm will come.

No, its AJ that treats all the water the same. He brews light lagers and therefore his mashes typically require low alkalinity water. His advice is proper in this case. Sparging water always requires low alkalinity water. So both can be treated the same.

Its when a brewer is mashing a more acidic grist (like a dark beer) that it would be proper to NOT treat the mashing water like the sparging water. Those more acidic grists may require a little more alkaline mashing water and that water could be too alkaline for sparging water use.

So...you sometimes need to treat your mashing and sparging water differently!
 
No, I don't add more salts to the boil kettle. But I'm really of the firm belief that "less is more" and don't overdo the sulfate anyway. I can see if someone wanted to add a ton of sulfate for flavor to the boil kettle, but even in IPAs I don't use that much gypsum anyway.

The advice about "less is more" is key. But if you brew with mash water at "less is more" levels and dillute it with no salts in your sparge water, then it may be similar to brewing with extremely low concentrations. The Ca is making it into the mash and that's what's most important along with mash pH.

Any salt at any weight can be added to the boil kettle, not just lots of gypsum. It's reasonable to add no salts to the sparge, add the salts to the sparge or add the salts that "should" have been in the sparge to the boil kettle.
 
Its when a brewer is mashing a more acidic grist (like a dark beer) that it would be proper to NOT treat the mashing water like the sparging water. Those more acidic grists may require a little more alkaline mashing water and that water could be too alkaline for sparging water use.

So...you sometimes need to treat your mashing and sparging water differently!

This is a great point. Using a portion of tap water for a source of alkalinity will make the mash water and sparge water a little different. I still look at the total of mash & sparge together and add CaCl2 and/or CaSO4 at the same grams/gallon of prepared water for simplicity. I have VERY alkaline water so 25% of mash water from tap water goes a long way and minimizes the differences between mash and 100% RO sparge water concentrations.
 
I brew more light lager beer than anything else but I also brew darker lagers (O'fest, Bock) and even the occasional stout. I treats the entire volume of water for each beer simply because this is easiest way for me to do it. This has never proven to be a problem but I have always verified that it is not by checking runoff pH. With my equipment and methods when the kettle is full (i.e. if I collected more wort I'd have no place to put it) the pH is always under 6 and the gravity under 4°P. The reason this works, I believe, is because if you are brewing a balanced dark beer then your water's alkalinity and the grain bill match. Historically brewers didn't add alkali to water in order to be able to brew dark beer. They added dark malt to their grists in order to be able to brew with the water they had. Thus if you brew with a grain bill that resembles what the traditional brewer did and properly constitute your water or your water is already properly constituted because it comes out of the tap that way you shouldn't need to treat the sparge water. You are relying on the experience of the original brewers and, presumably, after enough trial and error, they figured out how to do things and everything should be in balance.

But of course you are not restricted to doing what the brewers of yore did. If you decide you want to try a stout using 30% roast barley (Guiness-like stouts use 10%) you would, with nominal water, need some alkali (with 10% you don't) for the mash. Even if you sparge with the same water you mash with so that the sparge water is alkaline too there is more acidity in the grain and things ought to balance out but you no longer have the confidence that this will be the case because you have branched off on your own into strange terrain. It is always best to check with a pH meter and continue to do so until you have finalized the materials and procedures you will use for this beer.

WRT CaCl2 additions: I believe I use 34 grams in 55 gal for all noble hopped beers. This may not be the optimum for all beers of this type but is close to it.
 
All that matters with the sparge is to prevent a high pH in the mash tun and to keep the temperature <170F, your RO water with no alkalinity is perfect.

I'm using deionized water. For what I'm doing, can I assume when folks reference RO/Distilled water, that they are interchangeable for the subject at hand?
This primer has stylistic guidelines for water additions:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

You could convert these to concentrations to see what these levels using the EZ water spreadsheet.

I did see that, my issue is your talking to someone who drank Heineken exclusively before home brewing for the most part. I'm not up to snuff with my styles and what should be what. I did google the BJCP definition, but it didn't help me much. Also, reference of what to do with your water as far as hops go I didn't see anything about on the style guildeline, so what I was asking is if there was a reference book or site recommended that breaks down all of this, or is it just knowledge you learn while doing so?

It's likely they'll have Weyerman acidulated malt (which is sauermalz....sauermalz being the German name for acidulated/sour malt).

Thank you

For your current mash profile, I think the Calcium is a bit lower than I'd like to see. I'd increase the CaCl2 just a bit.

As DSmith said, 100% RO or distilled water is perfect for sparge water, and no additions are necessary.

Does the lack of treatment to the sparge water hold true for all styles? Probably a dumb question but I want to make sure.
 
The advice about "less is more" is key. But if you brew with mash water at "less is more" levels and dillute it with no salts in your sparge water, then it may be similar to brewing with extremely low concentrations. The Ca is making it into the mash and that's what's most important along with mash pH.

Any salt at any weight can be added to the boil kettle, not just lots of gypsum. It's reasonable to add no salts to the sparge, add the salts to the sparge or add the salts that "should" have been in the sparge to the boil kettle.

Yes, I realize that any salt can be added to the boil kettle. But normally, I add the salts (only caCl2 and gypsum typically) to my mash. I sparge with RO water. I could see adding more salts, if needed, to the boil kettle, but I don't think I ever needed any. I tend to brew with pretty low concentrations, and often "just enough". I rarely go over 100 ppm in sulfate, for example. So I haven't found the need to add anything that doesn't go into the mash.
 
I'm using deionized water. For what I'm doing, can I assume when folks reference RO/Distilled water, that they are interchangeable for the subject at hand?


I did see that, my issue is your talking to someone who drank Heineken exclusively before home brewing for the most part. I'm not up to snuff with my styles and what should be what. I did google the BJCP definition, but it didn't help me much. Also, reference of what to do with your water as far as hops go I didn't see anything about on the style guildeline, so what I was asking is if there was a reference book or site recommended that breaks down all of this, or is it just knowledge you learn while doing so?



Thank you



Does the lack of treatment to the sparge water hold true for all styles? Probably a dumb question but I want to make sure.

Dionized/RO/distilled water are all interchangeable for brewing with water from a blank slate.

You could use a style guide like this one (http://beeradvocate.com/beer/style/) with the primer to determine how to treat the water. Also look up Nobel hops and if you see them in the recipe it's a flag to not use CaSO4 as the sulfate harshness isn't wanted.

0 alkalinity water is always ok for sparging any style. The decision to treat the sparge water isn't as simple. The goal is to get a known amount of Cl and SO4 into your beer based on concentrations calculated on mash + sparge water volumes.

If you treat all your water the same (what I do) with x grams CaCl2/gallon and/or y grams CaSO4/gallon then your mash will have necessary calcium. If you choose to treat your mash water and sparge water separate then make sure you still add CaCl2 and/or CaSO4 to your mash water for a source of Ca and then either choose to treat/not treat your sparge water.

Your Oktoberfest looks like a great beer to start with understanding brewing water and mash pH because it looks like you don't need acidulated malt (from the spreadsheet results) and just using CaCl2 to about 40ppm Ca should make a good beer.
 
Interesting. Thanks for the help everyone. So frankly just add 6 grams of CaCl2 to my mash to bring my calcium above 50 and i'm good with this beer? Neat.
 
I'd add 5 grams of CaCl2 to your 7.75 gal mash and use that same ratio (0.65 grams CaCl2/gal) and add it to your HLT when heating up your sparge water. Those are not excessive quantities.

It appears that your grain bill and 0 alkilinity water take care of the mash pH pretty well without acidulated malt. Measuring mash pH (at room temperature) with a calibrated meter is the next step.
 
Sweet. When I get home I'll fire up my next challenge, a pilsner, which were going to do back to back brewdays with (Shoot me now) and hopefully I'll get it right the first time! You guys rock.
 
My pilsner recommendations:

100% dionized water for mash & sparge
Add Weyermann acidulated malt to mash for pH control (use spreadsheet to determine the amount - just add it to your grains to crush, don't decrease the amount of a grain to compensate)
Add 0.5 g CaCl2/gallon for mash & sparge water.

The presence of Nobel hops should steer you to CaCl2 only. You'll need acidulated malt with higher percentages of pilsner malt in the grainbill.
 
DSmith said:
My pilsner recommendations:

100% dionized water for mash & sparge
Add Weyermann acidulated malt to mash for pH control (use spreadsheet to determine the amount - just add it to your grains to crush, don't decrease the amount of a grain to compensate)
Add 0.5 g CaCl2/gallon for mash & sparge water.

The presence of Nobel hops should steer you to CaCl2 only. You'll need acidulated malt with higher percentages of pilsner malt in the grainbill.

Lalalalalalalala I'm ignoring you I want to see if i can get it right first lalalalalala *fingers in ears* lol jk, thanks. We'll see if I can work it out.
 
(use spreadsheet to determine the amount.../
Don't need a spreadsheet for this one. 2 - 3% is fine. Start with 2-1/2% and check pH. Use more or less next time according to what the pH reading gives you. Be sure to continue checking pH for at least 30 minutes i.e. don't panic if you get a reading of 4.9 just after dough in (if you get that 30 min. after dough in then you can panic but should check the cal of your meter before doing so).

The presence of Nobel hops...
Haven't heard about these. Are they from Sweden? Do they increase the chances of winning a big, big prize?
 
(use spreadsheet to determine the amount.../
Don't need a spreadsheet for this one. 2 - 3% is fine. Start with 2-1/2% and check pH. Use more or less next time according to what the pH reading gives you. Be sure to continue checking pH for at least 30 minutes i.e. don't panic if you get a reading of 4.9 just after dough in (if you get that 30 min. after dough in then you can panic but should check the cal of your meter before doing so).


Haven't heard about these. Are they from Sweden? Do they increase the chances of winning a big, big prize?

Playing with the spreadsheet will verify where the 2-3% recommendation for acidulated malt comes from (besides personal experience with pH meter and probably multiple rebrews).

Only be nobelest of the noble hops. The point was that if you see Hallertau, Saaz, Spalt & Tettnang it's a good rule-of-thumb for a first brew to restrict your salts to CaCl2. I assumed your pilsner had one of these.
 
It does indeed have Saaz. My 3 local homebrew suppliers don't sell acid malt, so I went with lactic acid. I added enough to get me below 5.5, as I don't have a PH meter (It was on sale at moreebeer there other day too! screw being broke) and you mentioned the mash PH is sometimes higher than the spreadsheet.

newbitmapimagezo.png
 
If you right click -> View image you can make it much bigger. HBT most reduce it so I don't blow out the margins.
 
Back
Top