3500W, 4500W or 5500W

If you are boiling 7.5 gallons down to 5 gallons and do not have a PID, which one would best suit this need?


I should be able to get my wort boiling from 155F after the sparge in about 20 minutes with a 3500W element, 15 minutes with 4500W and 12 minutes with 5500W. I am just thinking that without a PID and all that junk, I will be looking at too much heat with 4500W and up if I am not controlling the duty cycle.

I would wait and get the PID process worked out before you commit.

Im a little confused. A PID isnt going to help you much when it comes to boiling wort. I mean if you set it to 212 deg either two things are going to happen depending on the controller, you are either going to get very little boiling or you are going to eventually get 100% duty cycle any how. For a boil kettle I wouldnt even bother with a PID. Just turn it on and forget it. Now I am not sure if you have to worry about scorching using a hotter element. Considering a 5500 and 7500 element are roughly the same size so you will have a higher wattage to surface are ratio on the 7500. I would try a 5500 and see how yah like it. If you want a shorter boil time and risk scorching a batch use the 7500. Its only 20 bucks for another element and make a cheap batch to test with.

Edit- You have a 50 Amp 220V circuit to use a 7500 W element?

Actually an arduino board is cheap and will maintain your duty cycle if you have the program correct.

If your talking a real PID Loop I guess I am not sure why you need that type of control on a boil kettle, I mean your talking phase angle and in rush control. All you need is a johnson control and a relay. Thats all I use (sort of) on my HLT. I would go with the biggest one you have power for.
Cheers
JJ

Well, I am either going to use 3500W or 4500W. I am adding a separate breaker and circuit in my garage for this application, so I am setting it up for 240V and 30A. 3500W will easily boil the wort... so will 4500W. I am ONLY going to use low to ultra low density elements.

I only brew 5 gallon batches, so 3500W will DEFINATELY boil the heck outta that. I have boiled water in my HLT with 1500W.

Have you considered heat sticks? I experimented a little over the weekend, and 3000 combined watts brought 6.5 gallons of water (starting at 170 degrees) to a nice boil in under 15 minutes. I'm thinking about building two 120v, 1500 watt low density heat sticks, using both to get the boil, and then turning the one off after I reach the boil.

I like the heat stick idea because I won't have to run a 240 v circuit, come up with a controller to throttle a 240 volt element, or probably most importantly, modify my current kettle. If I mounted a 240 volt element in it, I would no longer be able to use it on a propane burner if I wanted to.

I want a clean install... that is why I am planning to insert the heating element into the keg. I may just run a 4500W and see how that goes, may get a 3500W and see how that works out. I will initially set it up to run at 100%, maybe down the road do the whole duty cycle thing, but I dont know if it will be necessary.
I will be building a control panel for my mixer, HLT, pump and BK... to make it cleaner and easier to manage. I have 6 kegs of beer on hand, so I have time and $$ to toss into another upgrade on my rig.

Has anyone used the guts out of a stove to control temp manually, kind of like what a PID (or potentiometer for lack of a better way to put it) would do?

The oven element control? They don't throttle temperature. When you set the temp it heats up to that temp and then turns off, then back on after a set hysteriesis. Plus I dont think they are designed to handle that kind of wattage.

I have a 4500w in mine with 5 gallon batches and dont have any issues. It is tantamount to turning the gas up REALLY high on a burner. I run low density elements on mine and haven't had issues. Though I am not very sure if it makes a difference. Common sense would suggest it though

Virtuous said:

Edit- You have a 50 Amp 220V circuit to use a 7500 W element?

Click to expand...

Who ever mentioned a 7500W element? I am talking about using 3500W OR 4500W... I have never even heard of a 7500W element.

Uhm.... I just rounded up?...

I have no idea where I got that number, some how it got stuck in my head. Swmbo was probably yammerin while I was reading/replying.

NP... I will be working on how to set up my elements for a while. I have a couple months before I need to brew anything again.

Keep us posted Pol! I've been debating modifying my kettle, but with doing extract brews, I think I might just go with the heat stick method so I don't have to worry about extract searing on the bottom....

When I electrified my brew kettle, I used a 3000w heating element. I only had two choice - it was either 3000w or 4500w (pictures are in my gallery). I just felt that the 4500w element was over kill (though I did worry that the 3000w won't be enough.

Pol, I do 5 gallon batches. I collect about 7 gallons of wort and manage to bring it to a boil within 20 minutes or so with the lid on. Once it comes to a boil I place the lid about 1/2 on. If I leave the lid on, I get messy boil overs for sure.

Even at 3000w, I finally built a little variable timer that cycles the element on and off through a SSR - I can go from all on to about a 50% duty cycle. The timer's very easy to build if you have some basic soldering skills - I can post the pdf of the circuit board, if you interested.

Also - check out "CD's New Electric Wort Boiler" - I can PM you the link if you want it, though googlings probably easier. I got most of my ideas from his boiler as I was building mine.

I use a 4500 w Ultra low in all my kegs and I do 10 gal batches , 90 min boils and start with 13 1/2 gal and end up with 11 1/2 of wort always hit my target SG. And Boil is Boil 212.

The Pol said:

I have never even heard of a 7500W element.

Click to expand...

I was considering using this in my HLT

12-0003 - Heater Element, 7.2kw, EM-1000

but have since decided to go this route

http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Heat-Element55KW-Side-Coil-pn-20-3017-P6085C201.aspx

I'm also in the process of converting parts of my brewery to electricity. Obviously my first task is to get 240 into the spare garage etc. I plan on using the BCS-460 control board eventually (I currently use a PID for my HERMS). But my two cents: go w/ the 4500 and figure out a way to regulate it (duty cycle etc). Why? You now have the option of brewing 10 gallon batches. There may be a day you want to do a larger batch and you are g2g now. With just a little more effort and money you have future-proofed your brewery.

keiths said:

I use a 4500 w Ultra low in all my kegs and I do 10 gal batches , 90 min boils and start with 13 1/2 gal and end up with 11 1/2 of wort always hit my target SG. And Boil is Boil 212.

Click to expand...

How long does it take you to get to a boil? I am thinking of going this route as well in the near future. I am assuming 220V

Here is a spreadsheet to calculate your boil/heat times.

Following this thread ...

I would like to go all-electric at some point in the future ...

currently in $$ bind, and want to do it right the first time .. (DUH)

a video would be very cool .. GOOD luck with this POL..

IrregularPulse said:

How long does it take you to get to a boil? I am thinking of going this route as well in the near future. I am assuming 220V

Click to expand...

Starting from the mash temps at around 150+ it only takes around 20min +,-
Yes 220v

I am wanting to go all electric keggle, but the only stumbling block I have is the PID. Anyone care to share what brand/model they are using?

The Pol said:

If you are boiling 7.5 gallons down to 5 gallons and do not have a PID, which one would best suit this need?


I should be able to get my wort boiling from 155F after the sparge in about 20 minutes with a 3500W element, 15 minutes with 4500W and 12 minutes with 5500W. I am just thinking that without a PID and all that junk, I will be looking at too much heat with 4500W and up if I am not controlling the duty cycle.

Click to expand...

I can't believe what I just read above Pol, "I am just thinking that without a PID and all that junk".

You planning on standing by during your brewing session flipping a two pole (not Pol) switch on and off manually more often with a higher wattage element used as your heating control system?
This sounds way backwards to me. A temp probe wired to a PID signaling a SSR sending power to the element is a simple and accurate way to control
temps. No offenses intended or applied to the best of my knowledge in this reply to your above reply.

lrr81765 said:

Here is a spreadsheet to calculate your boil/heat times.

Click to expand...

lrr81765; is there another way to get that calculated speadsheet posted as it does not open on my computer. All I get is a gray blank screen when I open.
I would like to see it and add to my brewing information department.
Thanks.

BrewBeemer said:

lrr81765; is there another way to get that calculated speadsheet posted as it does not open on my computer. All I get is a gray blank screen when I open.
I would like to see it and add to my brewing information department.
Thanks.

Click to expand...

Right Click -> Save Link (target) As

Gregredic said:

I am wanting to go all electric keggle, but the only stumbling block I have is the PID. Anyone care to share what brand/model they are using?

Click to expand...

Ok, to start with, if you are going to have an eKeggle, let's assume that you are going to make the logical step to some other device as well ( electric HLT, HERMS,RIMS,etc) .

This is where you would use a PID. Top brands include a this one from Auber Instruments. You will also need a thermocouple and SSR. Just get the 40amp + heat sink.

The PID uses an algorithm/Dutycycle switch to determine when to apply power. This should keep your temperature +/- 1-2*F.

In the boil, this becomes irrelevant. You could leave a 5500w element at full on a 5 gal boil, and the temp will never get about 212. I would NOT RECOMMEND THIS as you will experience that yummy burnt beer flavor.

So, on a boil kettle, you need two things. On startup, you need to bring the wort to a boil quickly. This is full power. Then once it is at boiling, you need to reduce the power to what it takes to maintain the boil. Exactly what you do on the kitchen stove.

To do this, you need either
1. a big ass rheostat ( Pol found one for $77 ),
2. a timer control circuit wired to the SSR with a variable input.
3. a microprocessor with custom code.
4. That 2-pole switch that beemer alluded to

#2 can be made for less than $10 by anyone that can solder components on a board. If you can't ( or like some Senior members, they *appear* much closer than they used to (eg. glasses) ), I think that some homebrew and a little searching could find you someone to do it. Try the geek at RadioShack.

As with all my recommendations, safety first. GFI circuits & ground that keggle!

lrr81765 said:

Try the geek at RadioShack.

Click to expand...

Sorry to pick this one line from your whole post, but I don't think radioshack is what it used to be. No geeks at mine. Just teenagers texting on cell phones while trying to sell cell phones. You ask for a component.."um.. we sell phones", nevermind I'll find it in the 1 drawer of electronics you guys still carry.
Wouldn't be bad if you lived somewhere with another option, but the closest store to me is still 40 minutes away.

I think I have finally broken down and come to face the fact that I will be looking at a few months of building on my HERMS, again. I have 6 full kegs, so I am okay on supply. Basically I want to build a control panel for switching my HLT heater, stirrer, March pump and controling an E-keggle. I want it to look cool, but also be simple, like the rest of my system.

#1. If I am running 240V to my brew stand via a GFCI circuit breaker... once I run that into my control panel, can I step it down to 120V for my HLT element and March pump etc? Of course this would be after running it through some sort of terminal block to split it up to my PID and different heating elements in my system as well. OR do I have to run 120 and 240 into my box?

#2. Where have some of you been buying your control panel components? High AMP switches etc? I know that different places sell different things, but I would like to find a place where I can get MOST of my components for simplicity sake.

#3. I have the installing of the element figured out after reading many different methods on how to successfully do so. I do brew 5 gallon batches, boiling 7.5 gallons. Of course, I this will be easy to convert to 10 gallon batches at some point as elements are cheap, and upgrading them will cost $30 max. I plan to install (1) at this time... 6500W which will be plenty to reach a quick boil now, and simpler than installing (2) and controlling them.

#4. In a boil kettle, is it necessary to run a thermocouple? The wort will only reach 212F (corrected for pressure)... is the PID on Ebay no capable of simply running a duty cycle? I would LOVE to have a controller that I can simply program to run at 50%, 60%, 70%, 100% etc... I dont see the point of the thermocoupler unless that is the only way that the PID will operate.

#5. I will be powering this by a dedicated breaker in my electical box in my garage... My home is new and has 200A service, I have 6 open slots and plan to install a 40A double breaker to accomplish this. I will more than likely run power to my box with some sort of a dryer pigtail that is plugged into the 240V outlet on the wall adjacent to my breaker box. Again, can I run my 120v equipment via a transformer with this 240V? Where do I find one?

Talk to me about timer control circuits... I can solder... so, where do I get a parts list to look at, instructions etc. I see the 40A SSR is $20 and so is the heat sink, I think... that part I understand. If I can build something that will control a duty cycle, that is aweome, I do not NEED to have a PID for temp reasons in the BK... but I need to control duty cycle in a variable manner.

Heya Pol;

Been researchin myself and here’s something I found on wortomatic that seems to help your question #1.

Wort-O-Matic: Articles


“Now on to the shuck and jive, as Papazian so annoyingly puts it. I wanted the main power to come from a 240V line, but I also had the pumps and the PID control running off of 110V. That meant splitting off a separate 110V line and plug, or running the 240V main thru a contactor. I opted for the contactor, as it’s also a safety valve. A contactor is basically a giant switch. Shut the power at the breaker or GFI and the contactor snaps closed, killing all power to the system. In the event something goes haywire, you won’t be killed. The contactor has a 240V pass-thru AND a 110V shunt so I could split off a powered line to my pumps and PID control., Here’s my Square-D. About $40 from eBay”

The Pol said:

Talk to me about timer control circuits... I can solder... so, where do I get a parts list to look at, instructions etc. I see the 40A SSR is $20 and so is the heat sink, I think... that part I understand. If I can build something that will control a duty cycle, that is aweome, I do not NEED to have a PID for temp reasons in the BK... but I need to control duty cycle in a variable manner.

Click to expand...

CD's New Electric Wort Boiler has a pretty simple controller circuit.

You can do it with 1 240v run. You will how ever have to run 4 wires from your power source. Line 1, Line 2, Neutral, and Ground.
Run this to a Nema 4x type enclosure/breaker box mounted on your brew rig. Put 2 110 GFCI breakers and a 220 GFCI jacuzzi breaker in the breaker box.
Run your power from those. You dont need a transformer to go from 220 to 110. Voltage from Leg 1 to Leg 2 is 220, and Line 1 or Line 2 to Neutral is 110.
You cant run power from a 220 GFCI and then split it into 110 because the current returning through the neutral will cause the GFCI to pop. So all of the breakers need to be wired in parallel.

You can get alot of your stuff from automation direct. I do suggest that you do not use switches alone to carry the current to the elements. You want to use solid state relays. Use the switches to energize the relays. Switching that much current through mechanical contacts can cause them to weld together. unless you are going to use large motor starters which are loud and expensive. If you plan to modulate the control you will DEFINITELY want to go solid state.
If you get the right PID controller they usually have a manual mode that you can t set the modulation to. I'll get more details later after work. You do have other options for duty cycle control.

Okay, so a PID it is (I cannot read any of those diagrams), I am not an electrical engineer.

-PID-

Dual Digital F/C PID Temperature Control Controller - eBay (item 250332481791 end time Dec-02-08 19:30:56 PST)

sorry to go backwards a bit, but i wanted to clarify some points that were made.

back up in post #9, Gregredic mentioned using "the guts out of a stove" to control the element. Virtuous responded in the next post that the oven controller wouldn't work, but i don't think he meant the oven controller, i think he meant the controller for an electric stove top element. isn't this a rheostat? and would this work for Pol's boil kettle application? it seems to me that if you can find a rheostat that can handle the wattage that this would be the most elegant design. throttle it up all the way to get boiling and then turn down to maintain the boil. so, can you use an old one from an electric stove? if not, do they exist in a form that can handle a 3500, 4500, 5500 watt 240v element? lrr81765 above mentioned that Pol found one for $77. where?? again, sorry for jumping in to the middle of this, if any one can point me in the right direction of posts that answer my questions, by all means do so, i just haven't found them in my searches (like that's a big surprise!)

I really dont think that I can accomplish building an E-keggle... I can fly a plane, but this stuff is way out of my league. Wiring a PID, to an SSR and programming it to modulate duty cycles etc... what the heck.

Virtuous said:

If you get the right PID controller they usually have a manual mode that you can t set the modulation to. I'll get more details later after work. You do have other options for duty cycle control.

Click to expand...

Yeah, in the BK duty cycle is all I really want... let me know my options, in case I decide to actually do this.

Seems that this hight speed coffee urn is pretty much what were looking to do

General Description
This urn is an automatic, push button operated, volume brewing unit. It consists of a nonpressure
vented water compartment of large capacity into which two stainless steel coffee
liners are inserted. Also installed within this water compartment are electric immersion
heaters thermostatically controlled through a contactor relay, to keep the water always at
the desired temperature. Measurement of water quantity sprayed over coffee is by push
button start, electric reset timer, timing a constant water flow rate to the spray nozzle.


grindmaster.com/literature/operatorsmanual/87710E Operation Manual.pdf

Here's a very good wiring diagram....

Credit goes to someone else tho...