Easy Stove-Top Pasteurizing - With Pics

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Keith66 said:
Thanks BB, but I'm going for PERFECTION next time! Tonight I'm curious to see how much carb they have after being in the fridge. I'm cautiously hopeful.
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As my Buddhist practitioner girlfriend says there is perfection in imperfection.... Lol

You sound a lot like me however, I don't normally quit until I master something or at least try to do better than my neighbors...

I commend you on your spirit my friend!
But buy a paintball mask anyway hahaha
 
Echoloc8 said:
Is the takeaway I should be getting from this discussion that when back sweetening I should just be prepared for and accept bottle bombs, either in the pot or afterward?

Pappers has only had a bottle or two ever pop their caps, but people like BadgerBrigade blow bottle after bottle after bottle.

Hilarity about safety glasses and splinters of glass sticking in the skin aside, I want my wife to be able to enjoy my homebrew without fear. No other answer is acceptable for me. In over ten years of homebrewing I've never had a primed bottle explode, and having even one do so now would make me hang up bottling for good, and keg forevermore. I know she'd never touch a bottle of mine again, and frankly I wouldn't blame her. No amount of homebrew enjoyment is worth even one glass-related trip to the emergency room.

Is there no way to back sweeten without risk? Commercial vintners, cidermakers and brewers pasteurize all the time; I'm sure that the prospect of making the news with exploding bottles means that they have their process down. What's the difference here?

-Rich
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Rich, check out the method at www.howtomakehardcider.com
 
Cider.jpg

Post-pasteurization perfection! Perfect "pfft!" Tiny bubbles! Amazing smell and flavor! Thanks to all who posted, especially Pappers!
 
Keith66 said:
Post-pasteurization perfection! Perfect "pfft!" Tiny bubbles! Amazing smell and flavor! Thanks to all who posted!
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Looks DELICIOUS! What I wouldn't give for one of those right now... Can't think of anything better to finish a night of hellish homework! ;)
 
Pappers_ said:
Rich, check out the method at www.howtomakehardcider.com
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Do you mean the Xylitol use (hello laxative effect), or the campden/sorbate process? I've read about both, and have no desire to try the former, while the latter recently failed a friend of mine to the tune of wine-bottle bombs going off just 20 feet from his position on the sofa.

i know there's science (Science!) to all this (both stabilization and pasteurization), and in fact the wine and beer industries rely on it every day, but failures of any process are easy to find on this board, and the penalty for failure is extreme (flying glass!). :eek:

For example, Pappers, you posted about this method here so that people could have custom-carbed bottled cider without preservatives. Here's a thread that details a sweetened-carbed beer project I'm working on, and every day I reject or re-adopt another method for pulling it off:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/safely-backsweetening-beer-liqueur-400742/

What do you recommend? No one seems to want to comment on the thread itself.

-Rich
 
Echoloc8 said:
Do you mean the Xylitol use (hello laxative effect), or the campden/sorbate process? I've read about both, and have no desire to try the former, while the latter recently failed a friend of mine to the tune of wine-bottle bombs going off just 20 feet from his position on the sofa.

i know there's science (Science!) to all this (both stabilization and pasteurization), and in fact the wine and beer industries rely on it every day, but failures of any process are easy to find on this board, and the penalty for failure is extreme (flying glass!). :eek:

For example, Pappers, you posted about this method here so that people could have custom-carbed bottled cider without preservatives. Here's a thread that details a sweetened-carbed beer project I'm working on, and every day I reject or re-adopt another method for pulling it off:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/safely-backsweetening-beer-liqueur-400742/

What do you recommend? No one seems to want to comment on the thread itself.

-Rich
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I would take an entirely different approach. You can make a beer as sweet as you want without using any backsweetening. Mash high, adjust your grain bill, decrease the fermentability of your wort, add dextrose or lactose. Then add the flavoring you want from the liqour you want to add, without worrying about the sugar.

Regarding making cider and the method at http://www.howtomakehardcider.com/, if you follow her directions it will work. If your friend's bottles exploded, its because he didn't follow her directions. Unlike stove-top pasteurizing, where there are many variables and you have to figure out what will work for your cider, process and set up, the method she describes in detail is fool proof and will work for everyone. But, of course, you have to follow her directions exactly.

Good luck!
 
Pappers_ said:
I would take an entirely different approach. You can make a beer as sweet as you want without using any backsweetening. Mash high, adjust your grain bill, decrease the fermentability of your wort, add dextrose or lactose. Then add the flavoring you want from the liqour you want to add, without worrying about the sugar.

Regarding making cider and the method at http://www.howtomakehardcider.com/, if you follow her directions it will work. If your friend's bottles exploded, its because he didn't follow her directions. Unlike stove-top pasteurizing, where there are many variables and you have to figure out what will work for your cider, process and set up, the method she describes in detail is fool proof and will work for everyone. But, of course, you have to follow her directions exactly.

Good luck!
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A) I mention in the PS to my post that I don't want to use alternative sweeteners, but to amplify: I'm trying to make a clone of a commercial sweetened beer. To that end I'm trying to stabilize a fermented beverage that will have potentially fermentable sugar in it.

B) I used Google to search howtomakehardcider.com for any mention of sorbate for stabilization, and there is none, just two warnings to not use sorbated juice as an ingredient.

howtomakehardcider.com said:
If you try to sweeten you cider with any type of "real" sugar, that sleepy yeast will spring back to life and will start to ferment again. If you keep giving it sugar, you will soon have apple wine--not the goal.
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Her site seems to be all about xylitol for back-sweetening, and is not relevant to the stabilization question. Certainly safe, but not relevant if you're trying to avoid laxative qualities in your brew (via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylitol):

wikipedia said:
As with other sugar alcohols, with the exception of erythritol, consumption in excess of one's laxation threshold (the amount of sweetener that can be consumed before abdominal discomfort sets in) can result in temporary gastrointestinal side effects, such as bloating, flatulence, and diarrhea. Adaptation, an increase of the laxation threshold, occurs with regular intake. Xylitol has a lower laxation threshold than some sugar alcohols, but is more easily tolerated than others such as mannitol and sorbitol.
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Should I read all this as admission that "you can't always get what you want" and there's little way to be certain of homebrew-scale stabilization?

-Rich
 
Rich, I'm confused by your posts a little, so am probably not responding to your questions very helpfully. I would never pasteurize homebrewed beer or 'stabilize' it chemically. Why do you want to backsweeten beer, when you can make it as sweet as you want without doing so? If you want to clone a commercial sweet beer, I would make a sweet beer, not a backsweetened beer.

As for making cider, if you are worried about the safety of stove-top pasteurizing (not an unfounded worry, in my opinion), then the other method will absolutely work with no safety risk. I think your concern about artificial sweeteners is exaggerated, they are so common today, many people consume them without even knowing it. I personally don't know anybody who has gastric problems with drinking diet soda, for example. But, if you do have digestive problems with them and don't want to use artificial non-fermentable sweeteners, then make still cider. I love still cider, it can be very delicious.
 
Pappers_ said:
Rich, I'm confused by your posts a little, so am probably not responding to your questions very helpfully. I would never pasteurize homebrewed beer or 'stabilize' it chemically. Why do you want to backsweeten beer, when you can make it as sweet as you want without doing so? If you want to clone a commercial sweet beer, I would make a sweet beer, not a backsweetened beer.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I probably haven't done a good job of explaining myself. The recipe I'm about to talk about is here:

Kasteel Rouge is a beer that has had a cherry liqueur added. My wife and I love this beer, so I'm trying to clone it.

I've chosen to go the route of making the base beer, fermenting it as dry as the Belgian Strong style recommends, and then adding cherry cordial liqueur.

Cherry cordial liqueur (like most liqueurs) is quite sweet, being made from cherries, alcohol like vodka, and fructose and/or sucrose (probably high-fructose corn syrup). This means that adding it to unstabilized, unpasteurized beer bottles will cause them to ferment, acting like priming sugar.

Having had Kasteel Rouge several times, it's very clearly sweetened by the cherry liqueur, so I don't want the liqueur's sweetness consumed by the bottle conditioning process. It's also not an option to simply make the beer sweeter by recipe design.

My wife and I can taste off flavors from Splenda and Nutrasweet, and I know for a fact that Xylitol can have laxative properties when consumed in any quantity. So making my own unfermentable cherry cordial liqueur with one of these sweeteners isn't a way I want to go.

To get around this, I am/was planning to keg the beer & liqueur mixture, chill and carbonate it in the keg, and then bottle from the keg for aging. The issue is: how to prevent the sugar in the liqueur from being consumed, overcarbonating the bottles and possibly creating bottle bombs?

At this point I'm looking at giving up on bottling this beer altogether and aging in/serving from the keg after putting in the cherry cordial liqueur.

Another option someone recommended is sterile filtering the beer before adding the liqueur, knocking the yeast population so low it can't restart fermenting.

-Rich
 
First pasteurization session was a success, everyone is safe and accounted for.... sshhoooeee.
 
branman said:
First pasteurization session was a success, everyone is safe and accounted for.... sshhoooeee.
Click to expand...

Just in case you have any problems with the next batch I'm going to start selling homebrew pasteurization ballistic shields... Hahaha
 
Thread question: would it not be possible to paturize the batch of cider by pouring it in a pot bringing it to desired temp., back sweetin and force carbinate (CO2). Then use a counter flow or beer gun to bottle? I am interested to hear your thoughts..
 
branman said:
Thread question: would it not be possible to paturize the batch of cider by pouring it in a pot bringing it to desired temp., back sweetin and force carbinate (CO2). Then use a counter flow or beer gun to bottle? I am interested to hear your thoughts..
Click to expand...

Yes....if your force carbing you can bring the cider in a pot to 143F for a few minutes then you can backsweeten, force carb and bottle.
 
Sooooooooooooooo........my dumb a** decided that I remembered the directions instead of following along......so I put my bottles in with the water and turned the stove on high......WRONG!! But this went on as I'm waiting till it hits 175* or so. This is when I decide to double check and this is when I go....O SH**!!! So I immediately take them out and a couple bottles in I have my first bomb : / scared the SH** out of me, the swmbo standing behind me not paying attention who wasn't aware that this may happen...SO they're all outside on a table on the porch. Any suggestions?!?!? My first attempt at cider and bottle pasteurization....not so good. The worst part is my first batch of beer is still conditioning. So there's no RDWHAH goin on either : / Thanks!

Edit: They were at about 175* and I was waiting for them to hit 190*.
 
branman said:
Thread question: would it not be possible to paturize the batch of cider by pouring it in a pot bringing it to desired temp., back sweetin and force carbinate (CO2). Then use a counter flow or beer gun to bottle? I am interested to hear your thoughts..
Click to expand...

If you're going to force carbonate (not bottle condition) then there is no need to pasteurize. Ferment out, knock the yeast out with stabilizers, backsweeten and force carb. Also, keeping the yeast cold in a keg will knock them out.
 
Also, everyone knows that I have posted lots of warnings, admonitions and am endlessly sending people to the www.howtomakehardcider.com, because we are dealing with heat, pressure and glass. And I don't want to downplay the recent posters who have had trouble. But to be balanced, I have done dozens of batches, I've lost track at this point, and do not remember having a single bottle break either during the pasteurizing because of excessive pressure or afterwards because the pasteurizing failed.
 
Pappers, your level of success is my goal. I had 2 bombs last Wednesday because I: fermented 1 day too long, didn't open a glass bottle on day 3, and pasteurized despite a gusher on day 4 against much advice to the contrary. I fully expected a bomb, and got one (2 actually, but out of 52 bottles, that's not bad). Now I know that your and others' advice is sound.
Start opening a bottle every two days or so, until you find that carbonation is at the right level. Warning - if the carbonation level is too high, if you have gushing bottles for example, do not pasteurize, the pressure will be too much for your bottles.
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Because this cider carbonates so quickly, I will open a glass bottle EVERY DAY starting on day 2, instead of relying on the plastic soda bottle like I did this time. Thanks much for your great post on this very useful process! :mug:
 
I think that one has to keep in mind is that:
The fermentation produces CO2. the beverage takes a while to absorb this c02, this may take several days, and when we put only the priming sugar, there is no problem, it will ferment, and will be absorbed in a few days without the danger of blowing up anything.
I could feel when I used this technique of pasteurization to sweeten Malzbier that the amount of CO2 released when I opened the bottle was more than what was shown absorbed into the drink! The beer is lightly carbonated showed. but was released a good amount of co2 when open. That was the moment I decided to pasteurize and stop the fermentation, because I knew that with some days of rest it would get there. and even then some sizzled during pasteurizationbut none exploded.
All I'm saying is that maybe the problem is happening for waiting a day longer.
Good Luck!





(Damn google translator)
 
Honestly, the only true benefit I can see is non-cold storage, which is nice, and the effect that might have on sharing with friends. Based on my near perfect first attempt two weeks ago, and knowing what I did wrong, I think I can have the same success that Pappers does, and will continue to pasteurize. Fortunately for those who aren't comfortable with it, there are alternatives. Cheers!
 
RagingMammoth said:
id be too scared the bottles would explode...
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If you want to give any brew to friends you should go for it...
Just take more precautions then I did and you'll be fine... Pot big enough for the bottles to fit in side with metal lid on... And NO over carbed stuff... Lol

If we let things intimidate us we would never achieve things we once thought were inachievable..... :)
Just be safe and go for it!
 
I take much advantage of this procedure with my porter. I pasteurize them, and they keep the "sweet" of specialty malts for longer
 
I did some stove-top pasteurization with some flip top bottles. I did lose 1 bottle to an explosion but everything else was good.
A quick note - I noticed some of the gaskets failed. They didn't break but one side sort of flipped out from under the cap. The bottles with gaskets that 'failed' still held pressure after the failure and I was able to just open then re-situate the gasket properly. I think the gaskets failing probably saved me from more broken bottles, but it's hard to know for sure if the bottles would have blown.
Didn't know if this had been discussed yet but I hope it's valuable info for the community.
 
Pasteurized another batch Thursday night, nothing new to report, just glad to have some cider around, we're always running out. I should just go ahead and get some more going now.
 
Why cant you just add campden tablets and Potassium Sorbate and be done with it?
I ask this only because I am getting
ready to rack my first every set. So anxiety is high.
Thanks.
 
Txbigfoot said:
Why cant you just add campden tablets and Potassium Sorbate and be done with it?
I ask this only because I am getting
ready to rack my first every set. So anxiety is high.
Thanks.
Click to expand...

If you are going to force carb or want still cider, knocking the yeast down with additives will work. But if you want to bottle carbonate and condition, that method won't work.
 
Pappers_ said:
If you are going to force carb or want still cider, knocking the yeast down with additives will work. But if you want to bottle carbonate and condition, that method won't work.
Click to expand...

Thank you for that answer.

So, if I understand correctly, to keep it "aging" I either stove top it or cold crash( which is taking your carboy and putting in the fridge at 40 for 2-3 days-right?) That way it ages after you sugar it for bottling.

Otherwise, if you want a non carbonated cider, you can campden/sorbate
That right?:confused:
 
Txbigfoot said:
Thank you for that answer.

So, if I understand correctly, to keep it "aging" I either stove top it or cold crash( which is taking your carboy and putting in the fridge at 40 for 2-3 days-right?) That way it ages after you sugar it for bottling.

Otherwise, if you want a non carbonated cider, you can campden/sorbate
That right?:confused:
Click to expand...

The answer to your second question "if you want a non carbonated cider, you can campden/sorbate That right?" is yes.

I think the answer to your first question is no, though, I think you're not getting the concept, but I may not be understanding your question correctly.

To carbonate/condition in the bottle, you need yeast to eat sugar, producing the CO2. If you add the campden/sorbate and then bottle, they will knock the yeast down (hopefully) and they will not eat the sugar, hence no CO2.

If you backsweeten with juice (like I do) and then bottle, the yeast will start eating the sugar in the bottles and produce CO2, carbonating your cider. I pasteurize the bottles at this point, to kill the yeast and stop them from eating more sugars, which would produce too much CO2 and explode the bottles.

Does this help?

Another really good method for making semi-dry/sweet, bottle carbonated cider can be found at www.makinghardcider.com
 
If you backsweeten with juice (like I do) and then bottle, the yeast will start eating the sugar in the bottles and produce CO2, carbonating your cider. I pasteurize the bottles at this point, to kill the yeast and stop them from eating more sugars, which would produce too much CO2 and explode the bottles.

Pappers, thank you for being so kind in replying. Regarding the above, I think I will split the batch. 1/2 staright no carbination so tablet and sorbate.

The other 1/2 batch I will carbonate. I would also like to backsweeten.
So, I will add the concentrate and sugar to bottle. How much time do I wait to pasteurize to kill the yeast after they start nawing my sugar?

Also, if the ABV is low before i kill everything can I add dextrose again or just move on?
 
Txbigfoot said:
Also, if the ABV is low before i kill everything can I add dextrose again or just move on?
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I have used dextrose with concentrate before with no problems.. I let it go to long and tryed to get some of the dryness out.
 
So how I did it today ( without acsess to large pots) was to fill the sink up with about 130f water. Place 4 bottles in then dump a pot of boiling water on top. Only lost 1 bottle (chip in it).
 
Rather than using priming sugar for carbonating, I want to use apple concentrate. Any Idea how much per gallon? Also, does pasteurizing affect the taste of the cider?
 
ciderjunkie72 said:
Rather than using priming sugar for carbonating, I want to use apple concentrate. Any Idea how much per gallon? Also, does pasteurizing affect the taste of the cider?
Click to expand...

You have to find out how much sugar is in the concentrate.... I take fresh juice and keep reducing it down On the stove with a little honey or brown sugar until it is a wonderful appellee syrupy back sweetener
 
ciderjunkie72 said:
Rather than using priming sugar for carbonating, I want to use apple concentrate. Any Idea how much per gallon? Also, does pasteurizing affect the taste of the cider?
Click to expand...

I used 3 cans for a 5-gal batch and could have used 5 without getting too sweet. Mine was still fairly dry. And no, pasteurizing didn't change the taste at all.
 
Regarding pasteurization changing the taste, I'll mention something I haven't seen in this thread yet. To help monitor carbonation, I filled one plastic soda bottle. Four days later the glass bottles got pasteurized and the plastic soda bottle went into the fridge to cold crash. One day after that, I drank the first cold, pasteurized glass bottle. And one day after that, on a Saturday, I drank "more than one" bottle of cider including the non-pasteurized plastic soda bottle. As far as I could tell, there was no difference in taste between the pasteurized cider in the glass bottles and the non-pasteurized cider in the soda bottle.
 

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