My Founders Brewing Co Story

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

caber2615

Active Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2011
Messages
37
Reaction score
2
Location
Plymouth
Hello all, I havent posted here much, more of a lurker while I am learning the art of homebrewing. Anyway, I wanted to share with you an expirence I had with Founders recently. Maybe one of you can help me understand...or tell me Im over-reacting...

Some background: Simply put, I love Founders. I travel great distances to get there beers, go to all of their release parties, etc, etc, etc.

I reached out to them to ask a few questions about their process. I am brewing a nut brown ale for SWMBO in the next few weeks and I wanted to add some Cashews to it, similar to Founders Cashew Mountain Brown. I emailed them asking two simple questions.
Question 1: Where in the process do you introduce the Cashew? Mash, Boil, Secondary? And is there anything special you do to them first? Crush, Roast, etc?
Question 2: What type of yeast do you use? Is it a locally available homebrew yeast or a proprietary strain that was designed for you? If it is proprietary, would I be able to harvest it from a bottle?

Now I know I probably could have just harvested the yeast without even asking, but that is besides the point. I wanted to hear from the souce. Breweries like Rogue and Bells are more than willing to share yeast info. I have also always had great expiriences getting my questions answered when at the actual Founders Taproom. Apparently their email process is a little different...

Here is the response I recieved...
Due to proprietorship, we cannot divulge any process of recipe information concerning our beers. These recipes took years to perfect and they are proprietor to Founders Brewing Company. Thank you in advance for your understanding and we with you the best of luck in your brewing adventures. Cheers!

Are they serious? They didnt even acknowledge my questions. Was I out of line in asking those simple things? The info I asked for seems hardly proprietary. This "canned response" they fired back really makes me a little fired up considering I spend hundreds of dollars a year on their beers. Needless to say, I fired back a rant of my own due to the fact that I was not very happy...maybe I will get somewhere with the second try.

What do you guys think? Am I over thinking this? Is that the response you would have expected?
 
Reasonably common. Some breweries are more homebrewer-friendly than others - some feel they need to protect themselves by keeping it a secret - some feel transparency can actually be a selling point, and will hand out their recipe to anyone who asks, and send them out the door with a mason jar of their yeast, to boot.

I like to take pictures of recipe sheets (not because i want the recipe, but because i like how different folks use their sheets during brewing for checking off, scribbling, etc.!) and sometimes, I'm shut down when they see the camera come out, and sometimes, they ask me if i wanted them to email me a copy. :p

I doubt they'll take kindly to an angry rant in reply though.
 
That is why the email caught me off guard. Most breweries I talk to are all about helping out homebrewers. Dont forget where you started...
My response wasn't angry or rude...more or less trying to understand their reasoning.
 
Hello all, I havent posted here much, more of a lurker while I am learning the art of homebrewing. Anyway, I wanted to share with you an expirence I had with Founders recently. Maybe one of you can help me understand...or tell me Im over-reacting...

Some background: Simply put, I love Founders. I travel great distances to get there beers, go to all of their release parties, etc, etc, etc.

I reached out to them to ask a few questions about their process. I am brewing a nut brown ale for SWMBO in the next few weeks and I wanted to add some Cashews to it, similar to Founders Cashew Mountain Brown. I emailed them asking two simple questions.
Question 1: Where in the process do you introduce the Cashew? Mash, Boil, Secondary? And is there anything special you do to them first? Crush, Roast, etc?
Question 2: What type of yeast do you use? Is it a locally available homebrew yeast or a proprietary strain that was designed for you? If it is proprietary, would I be able to harvest it from a bottle?

Now I know I probably could have just harvested the yeast without even asking, but that is besides the point. I wanted to hear from the souce. Breweries like Rogue and Bells are more than willing to share yeast info. I have also always had great expiriences getting my questions answered when at the actual Founders Taproom. Apparently their email process is a little different...

Here is the response I recieved...
Due to proprietorship, we cannot divulge any process of recipe information concerning our beers. These recipes took years to perfect and they are proprietor to Founders Brewing Company. Thank you in advance for your understanding and we with you the best of luck in your brewing adventures. Cheers!

Are they serious? They didnt even acknowledge my questions. Was I out of line in asking those simple things? The info I asked for seems hardly proprietary. This "canned response" they fired back really makes me a little fired up considering I spend hundreds of dollars a year on their beers. Needless to say, I fired back a rant of my own due to the fact that I was not very happy...maybe I will get somewhere with the second try.

What do you guys think? Am I over thinking this? Is that the response you would have expected?


Yes you are overreacting. As the previous poster mentioned, some breweries are friendly and will give you all the information you want, some refuse. That is their right, and it shouldn't effect if you purchase their product or not. If they have figured out the way to add a cashew flavor, and no other brewery has, then that is proprietary, plain and simple, they don't want it to get out. Is is lame, yes. Is it disappointing, absolutely. But it shoudn't effect anything.
 
My understanding is that Founder's doesn't even do brewery tours. They are very close-mouthed about their brews and their equipment. That's not typical of most breweries that I know, but it's probably not all that rare either.
 
Hello all, I havent posted here much, more of a lurker while I am learning the art of homebrewing. Anyway, I wanted to share with you an expirence I had with Founders recently. Maybe one of you can help me understand...or tell me Im over-reacting...

Some background: Simply put, I love Founders. I travel great distances to get there beers, go to all of their release parties, etc, etc, etc.

I reached out to them to ask a few questions about their process. I am brewing a nut brown ale for SWMBO in the next few weeks and I wanted to add some Cashews to it, similar to Founders Cashew Mountain Brown. I emailed them asking two simple questions.
Question 1: Where in the process do you introduce the Cashew? Mash, Boil, Secondary? And is there anything special you do to them first? Crush, Roast, etc?
Question 2: What type of yeast do you use? Is it a locally available homebrew yeast or a proprietary strain that was designed for you? If it is proprietary, would I be able to harvest it from a bottle?

Now I know I probably could have just harvested the yeast without even asking, but that is besides the point. I wanted to hear from the souce. Breweries like Rogue and Bells are more than willing to share yeast info. I have also always had great expiriences getting my questions answered when at the actual Founders Taproom. Apparently their email process is a little different...

Here is the response I recieved...
Due to proprietorship, we cannot divulge any process of recipe information concerning our beers. These recipes took years to perfect and they are proprietor to Founders Brewing Company. Thank you in advance for your understanding and we with you the best of luck in your brewing adventures. Cheers!

Are they serious? They didnt even acknowledge my questions. Was I out of line in asking those simple things? The info I asked for seems hardly proprietary. This "canned response" they fired back really makes me a little fired up considering I spend hundreds of dollars a year on their beers. Needless to say, I fired back a rant of my own due to the fact that I was not very happy...maybe I will get somewhere with the second try.

What do you guys think? Am I over thinking this? Is that the response you would have expected?


That is the stock response I would have expected. Think about it. They are in the production business and if they told everyone how to make their product then they wouldn't be in business. It is similar to emailing Coke and asking them how to make their soda. Or asking Apple how they make their computers. Just because the beer community is generally pretty open about information doesn't mean they share everything. The Brewing Network has been trying forever to get Mitch Steele from Stone Brewing Co. to give up the tiniest of information on the Arrogant Bastard recipe but he hasn't and won't. I recommend you RDWHAHB. I have found that it is better to ask those type of questions on a brewery tour or at a beer fest/release party where you can actually have a chance to talk to a brewer.

Good luck and happy brewing!
 
That is the stock response I would have expected.

In retrospect I probably should have expected this response as well. Just pissed me off a little. Maybe I just expect more out of a highly respected brewery. Especially considering we all start as Homebrewers.

On a side note, anyone have suggestions on adding Cashews?? :D
 
I have done pecans before, I opted to toast them for about 5-10 min until they started to smell toasty - then I added them to my 60 minute mash.

If you toasted them low and slow (but hot enough to kill any bacteria?) you could potentially "dry nut" your beer?

...that just sounds dirty. :fro:
 
Good to know for when I plan my Michigan Beers Road Trip. :drunk:

Oh, it's still great! Their beers are excellent, and their sandwiches are good. They had some unusual beers on tap that I normally can't get up here in the Boondocks, and I enjoyed it. But you don't get a tour, or even to get close to the brewery equipment. You don't get to chat about the beers- just order it, and go sit down and drink it. But it's worth a stop in Grand Rapids, that's for sure.
 
Oh, it's still great! Their beers are excellent, and their sandwiches are good. They had some unusual beers on tap that I normally can't get up here in the Boondocks, and I enjoyed it. But you don't get a tour, or even to get close to the brewery equipment. You don't get to chat about the beers- just order it, and go sit down and drink it. But it's worth a stop in Grand Rapids, that's for sure.

Agreed. Their beers are fantastic. And you're right about their sandwiches too! Even though I'm a little ticked about the response I would still recommend any of their beers, especially their taproom one offs. I will just use the "Shutup and Drink" philosophy when I go there from now on! :drunk:
 
Founders doesn't do tours to the public, but if you work with them in advance they would probably do a tour for a special group. At least they used to before the big expansion.

I know that one of the owners has told me exactly what went into one of their beers before at a beer festival. Since they grown so much past 2 years I have not seen him at the same festival. I suspect the business is keeping him very busy.

They have a nice taproom and some of the best beers in the state and the food there was excellent (sandwiches mostly). My biggest beef is that whenever I've gone there it's been PACKED! I really need to try and hit them up in the early afternoon on a weekday or something.

I think some brewers are willing to offer recipe advice and not worry about how it affects the business. Others have that same philosophy of playing it safe when it comes to corporate espionage. I'm sure Founders has a lot more to lose if Big Beer discovers some secret about their recipes and somehow makes a delicious craft beer with it. Yeah, I know. But it *could* happen!

One time at New Holland I emailed the head brewer to get information on their Saison. He responded with pretty much a complete recipe. However, he would not reveal the source of one rare ingredient. He cited competition as a reason, and I understand why.

I'd still try and chat with the bartenders about the beer at Founders, though it might be hard depending on how busy they are. IMO bartenders are not just there to serve beer. They are a source of conversation and understanding.
 
I'd still try and chat with the bartenders about the beer at Founders, though it might be hard depending on how busy they are. IMO bartenders are not just there to serve beer. They are a source of conversation and understanding.

I've always had a great expirience in speaking with anyone in their taproom about their beers and their process. Very open to share.

You are right about them being packed...your better off going during the week. The last time I was there was for Winter Beer Fest in GR...could barely move in the taproom.
 
Any sort of nuts, cashews, pecans, etc......typically get put in the mash. And they're roasted anywhere from 1-4 times before mashed.

I made pecan brown porter and roasted them 4x over and crushed them up into small pieces before mixing evenly through the mash. It's also important to note that any time you use nuts, if they're the oily type after roasting, then they need to be put in a brown lunch sack so you can soak up as much of the oils as possible. Oily beer = no head
 
In retrospect I probably should have expected this response as well. Just pissed me off a little. Maybe I just expect more out of a highly respected brewery. Especially considering we all start as Homebrewers.


So you're saying because they started at homebrewers, they should reveal their trade secrets to you and because they won't, you're angry at them?

:eek:
 
So you're saying because they started at homebrewers, they should reveal their trade secrets to you and because they won't, you're angry at them?

:eek:

Im saying that they too started as homebrewers and chances are they needed to ask more expirienced brewers for help while they continued to get better. In my expirience I have never had a response like that and most breweries I've spoken with are happy to share. It seems that most people who have replied here have had the same expirience. I'm more ticked that they didnt even acknowlege my questions...they just sent a canned response back as if they didnt even read my email.
Personally, I dont think that to answer either of my questions they would have had to give away their trade secerets.:confused:
 
Their response doesn't surprise me.

I emailed one of our breweries up here (Sleeman's, in Ontario) to ask for recipe advice on one of their beers about a year ago. It's a variety we can't get in my part of the country. Their response: "Thank you for your inquiry. The brew you enjoyed was Upper Canada Dark Ale. This beer is only available in Ontario. It is made from the basic four ingredients of hops, yeast, barley and water. The difference in taste is the high quality, rich hops and barley used."

Talk about helpful recipe advice! It hadn't occurred to me to try using hops, yeast, barley and water...
 
Im saying that they too started as homebrewers and chances are they needed to ask more expirienced brewers for help while they continued to get better. In my expirience I have never had a response like that and most breweries I've spoken with are happy to share. It seems that most people who have replied here have had the same expirience. I'm more ticked that they didnt even acknowlege my questions...they just sent a canned response back as if they didnt even read my email.
Personally, I dont think that to answer either of my questions they would have had to give away their trade secerets.:confused:

I think you've got a point here. It's not that they didn't help him out, it's how they responded. The language used and rigid line they took was kind of uncalled for and came off as very unfriendly. In a "guarding govt secrets" kinda way. They could have easily said "Hey guy, we appreciate your inquiry and glad you enjoy the beer, however our recipes are a very important secret to us", and perhaps given some sort of related advice, even if it wasn't super helpful.

Instead, they chose a canned response and took a hard stance on it and end up looking like dicks.
 
I think you've got a point here. It's not that they didn't help him out, it's how they responded. The language used and rigid line they took was kind of uncalled for and came off as very unfriendly. In a "guarding govt secrets" kinda way. They could have easily said "Hey guy, we appreciate your inquiry and glad you enjoy the beer, however our recipes are a very important secret to us", and perhaps given some sort of related advice, even if it wasn't super helpful.

Instead, they chose a canned response and took a hard stance on it and end up looking like dicks.

I can how this comes across that way, but honestly, I think they just have someone answering emails and with so much interest in them lately the higher ups just put in a form response to this kind of inquiry because they are too busy with their jobs and don't trust a clerk to not give away too much.

Or, they were homebrewers one time and DIDN'T have access to a pro brewer for advice and had to learn the hard way, and that's how they figure everyone else should do it too.

Who knows. I'd still chat up the help and see what gives. At least find out what kind of crack they put in KBS to make it so damn delicious!
 
I can how this comes across that way, but honestly, I think they just have someone answering emails and with so much interest in them lately the higher ups just put in a form response to this kind of inquiry because they are too busy with their jobs and don't trust a clerk to not give away too much.

Or, they were homebrewers one time and DIDN'T have access to a pro brewer for advice and had to learn the hard way, and that's how they figure everyone else should do it too.

Who knows. I'd still chat up the help and see what gives. At least find out what kind of crack they put in KBS to make it so damn delicious!

Yep, my perception of them hasn't changed a bit. I'm making a Breakfast Stout clone in a month or so. Can't wait.
 
Yep, my perception of them hasn't changed a bit. I'm making a Breakfast Stout clone in a month or so. Can't wait.

I brewed one last november...man is it good with age! Good luck! On that note, didn't Founders help BYO with the Breakfast Stout clone in their Jan 2009 edition? Weird they would do that but not answer my Cashew question... :ban:
 
Just curious, can anyone think of a beer that is or seems like a direct clone of a previously successful beer? I think the point of making a unique beer is that it's hard to duplicate even if you know the recipe. You don't have their water, they probably don't include their PH information, their process info, their equipment profile, etc. There are all kinds of things that can change the makeup of the beer and unless you brew it where they brew it...chances are you won't perfectly duplicate it.

Think of all of the pale ales out there...you think there's really some super-secret ingredient in every one of them? Or that they do something that NOBODY else does that is easy to duplicate if the secret were out? I doubt it. It's their environment, equipment, water, etc. I can see a specific yeast strain, too...but that's not going to be duplicated from a simple email.
 
Any sort of nuts, cashews, pecans, etc......typically get put in the mash. And they're roasted anywhere from 1-4 times before mashed.

I made pecan brown porter and roasted them 4x over and crushed them up into small pieces before mixing evenly through the mash. It's also important to note that any time you use nuts, if they're the oily type after roasting, then they need to be put in a brown lunch sack so you can soak up as much of the oils as possible. Oily beer = no head

I used 2 pounds of store bought dry roasted peanuts in a 1 gallon batch where I didn't remove any oil at all.

No head retention problems.

I'm about ready to call the "oily ingredient = poor head retention" theory a myth.
 
I used 2 pounds of store bought dry roasted peanuts in a 1 gallon batch where I didn't remove any oil at all.

No head retention problems.

I'm about ready to call the "oily ingredient = poor head retention" theory a myth.

Interesting. Yeah, we all just follow what we're told. I only assumed that oil kills head retention, as I understood it. Regardless, I'd still probably try to reduce the amt of oils by a good bit.
 
Or, they were homebrewers one time and DIDN'T have access to a pro brewer for advice and had to learn the hard way, and that's how they figure everyone else should do it too.

I had thought about this. They might be in the "You have bootstraps, use them!" camp. Even if they are, it doesn't change my opinion - Yeah it was their place to give that canned response - and - Yeah that was overreacting to their "tone".

Meh well. That's the great thing about having a zillion different craft breweries, these-a-days. Plenty of other beers to clone, brewers to talk to, etc.

I almost feel overwhelmed with the beer selection these-a-days. Might be an example of "Careful what you wish for!".


On that note, didn't Founders help BYO with the Breakfast Stout clone in their Jan 2009 edition? Weird they would do that but not answer my Cashew question...

Because some recipes are simple enough that there IS no secret, nothing to hide - and I would assume the Stout might fall in that category - after all, it's likely, hmmm, some pale malt, 2-6% Roasted Barley, perhaps flaked barley, and maybe another specialty grain if they're gettin' all crazy about it. And the 'secret' to the hops is probably just 'use neutral ones, and not too much of them'. (I am taking the assumption it's not a Milk Stout or other 'specialty' stout that would cause it to have a more porter-like grainbill.)

Meanwhile a Brown - especially a nut brown using real nuts - is far into the realms of having "secrets". After all, a Brown ale cuts a wide swath.

I actually wouldn't mind a copy of the recipe for the new Sam Adams Hazel Brown. Do I think they're gonna give me it? Not until the off-season, perhaps, once the Fall Variety Packs are sold out. :p
 
Chriso said:
I actually wouldn't mind a copy of the recipe for the new Sam Adams Hazel Brown. Do I think they're gonna give me it? Not until the off-season, perhaps, once the Fall Variety Packs are sold out. :p

Don't forget though, I didn't ask for the recipe...All I asked was where in the process they add the cashews...nothing more.
 
Don't forget though, I didn't ask for the recipe...All I asked was where in the process they add the cashews...nothing more.


You asked for the most important part of the recipe and then you threw a hissy fit when they wouldn't give it to you. This is a classic case of false sense of entitlement.

Just because some breweries give details about their recipes doesn't mean everyone should. In fact, many of the best craft breweries won't give details such as, New Glarus, Three Floyds, Victory, Founders and many more.

Breweries don't owe the homebrewing community anything.
 
You asked for the most important part of the recipe and then you threw a hissy fit when they wouldn't give it to you. This is a classic case of false sense of entitlement.

Just because some breweries give details about their recipes doesn't mean everyone should. In fact, many of the best craft breweries won't give details such as, New Glarus, Three Floyds, Victory, Founders and many more.

Breweries don't owe the homebrewing community anything.

Just for the record, its not like I went in there stomping my feet and whining like a 13 year old girl...just expected a less canned more human response to my questions, even if they couldnt or didnt want to answer them.

You are right though, they dont owe us a thing. Business is business, and sharing any part of a recipie or a process can compromise it. Just means I will have to spend more time on the boards asking all you experts questions instead of trying the breweries first. :mug:
 
I can understand them not wanting to give out the info. Stone Brewing will give out everything you need to brew all of their beers except Arrogant Bastard. On C"Can You Brew It" with Jamil Z. they have the head brewer from Stone on when they attempt to clone AB and all is says, "I can't tell you". I asked a local brew pub if they would give me the recipe for their porter and the email I got gave me the ingredients list and the ratios for each grain, but no specific weights for anything. Then he wished me luck and I took it upon myself to try and clone it. I was able to do it in 2 attempts.

Because there are so many similar beers out there when you come across a recipe that is unique you want to hold onto it for as long as you can. That's why there are patent laws.
 
I would spin this differently. Use Twitter. Start by including them in a tweet. "I love this .......... beer @foundersbrewing" Then, if you have room in the tweet ask about the process, "Wonder when they add the nuts" Or whatever you would like to ask. It puts the brewery in a public forum and any response is open to all their followers. They will understand that you are a superfan and want to understand the process. I've even sent direct messages to breweries about my clone attempts, I almost always get a response of some sort.

Emailing a question is closed between you and them only. Remember, they might get 15 to 30 emails a day about the recipe all from people trying to take business away from them. (in their minds)
 
They are in the production business and if they told everyone how to make their product then they wouldn't be in business.
This made me lol

Interesting - I've emailed Founders several times and each time I've received a "non-canned" answer, most of the time from a brewer. Just on these forums alone, you can find their recipes for Red's Rye PA, Founders Porter, and Centennial IPA. I wonder what has changed of late - maybe they just been overwhelmed with recipe related emails.
 
I thought you would all like to see the response I recieved from my follow up with Founders. Even though they did not provide me with too much additional information, at least my questions were acknowledged and some actual information given.

Ryan, Thanks for your support of Founders. The cashews are added during fermentation, not during the brew. Our yeast strain is proprietary. Cheers! Brad Stevenson | Vice President of Operations
 
Boom. Mash-nutted like I thought. Not dry nutted at all.

What? You dirty people. Psh. ;)
 
Back
Top