Gas and Temperature Control for Dummies

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Thanks for the harbor freight tip. I actually just built a manometer though. Was pretty simple and total cost was about $5. Basically just an npt to barb adapter sized for the test port of the valve (1/8" npt if I remember correctly) and some clear vinyl tubing I had lying around. Other than that you just need an inch ruler, some water and some food coloring. I can take a pic if anyone is interested, really nothing to it.

Only tested 2 of the valves so far. The output of the first was 4" W.C exactly. The second was around 3.5" W.C. I set them both to 4" for now but I was hoping I might be able to find the recommended pressure for the NG hurricane burner orifice; anyone know?
 
3-7" WC is recommended for natural gas. The BG-14 typically comes with high pressure orifices that will need to be drilled out or new ones purchased. I drilled mine with a 3/32" bit and thaey worked perfectly with my Honeywell gas valves. I didn't even use a drill. I just twisted the bit by hand and it went right through the soft brass.
 
I purchased the NG orifice for the hurricane, mine aren't drilled. Was hoping someone would know the pressure rating for the NG orifice. 3-7" is quite a range. I think I'll just leave them set in the 3.5-4" w.c. range as they seem to burn quite well with that pressure.
 
Honeywell valves are factory set at 3.5"WC, which is ideal. Range allows you to dial in the proper pressure to air mixture to obtain a perfect flame.
 
3-7" WC is recommended for natural gas. The BG-14 typically comes with high pressure orifices that will need to be drilled out or new ones purchased. I drilled mine with a 3/32" bit and thaey worked perfectly with my Honeywell gas valves. I didn't even use a drill. I just twisted the bit by hand and it went right through the soft brass.

7" is an input pressure for NG not an output. 3.5" wc is ideal for valves with ratings well above 200, 000 btuhs.
 
I am hoping someone here can help me. I am using the honeywell valves and Auber 2362. When the spark ignition is active either with a manual switch or through the PID the PV on the Auber is jumping around. Sometimes it will show EEEE. It jumps to an incorrect value and then right back to the correct value. I am assuming it is some sort of interference issue but I don't know how to fix it. Does anyone have any suggestions.

Thanks in advance.
 
I will take it you mounted the ignition modules inside the same enclosure as the Auber PID controller. As others before you have found out, the ignition modules emit quite a bit of radio frequency energy which drives the PID controller CPU crazy. The most used cure was to move the ignition module to it's own enclosure away from the primary control panel and make sure there is a wire return from the pilot body to the ignition enclosure and ignition module ground terminal to help prevent the spark current from traveling through the frame or other conductive components
 
The ignition module is mounted on the frame. Not sure I follow "make sure there is a wire return from the pilot body to the ignition enclosure and ignition module ground terminal". Where do you attache the wire to the pilot body. All I have on that is the spark plug wire.

Thanks for the help.
 
I am taking a new look at the diagram and see I missed the ground. I will try it today and report back.
 
Here is how I have the ground connected. It is pretty sloppy as we are just testing. Also, this may be a non issue when gas is hooked up. It seems to run the spark for 5 to 10 seconds before the PID's go nuts.

Edit
I forgot to mention after this I tried to connect the ground bus to a screw on the frame thinking the connection with the gas manifold wasn't good enough. I had the same thing happen

back.jpg


ign.jpg


valve.jpg
 
It is still not working but I will update the thread with what I have tried. I changed the ground wire to 14 Gauge with no improvement. I am confident it is a grounding issue but I don't know how to fix it. If I disconnect the small copper gas line that runs from the valve to the igniter the PID's work without incident. I am assuming that the copper line is carrying current. Does anyone have an idea of how to fix it? Any help is appreciated.
 
Route the ground directly to the pilot, eliminate the connection to the valve and retest. The copper tube has lower resistance than the wire and most of the spark current flows back to the module through the copper tube, not the wire to the pilot as configured now. The valve should be be grounded to the frame, ignition module to the pilot.
 
The valve should be be grounded to the frame, ignition module to the pilot.
Going to try your suggestion now and will report back. Can you clarify this statement, won't the valve and pilot be connected with the copper gas line also?
 
Still no luck. Also, I stated before that removing the copper gas line fixes the issue. It makes it better (doesn't jump around near as often) but still will every once in a while. I am wondering if this is just a problem with the Aubers. I am assuming when I get gas hooked up that it will call for spark once or twice and then stop. Am I chasing a problem that doesn't need fixed? Can anyone confirm their system doesn't do this with the gas turned off?

Ground from controller to frame

Ground from module to igniter

cont.jpg


mod.jpg


ign.jpg
 
Here is a quick vid of how the behavior looks. You can hear the spark activating.

[ame="http://youtu.be/6cCCw0h2i1c"]http://youtu.be/6cCCw0h2i1c[/ame]
 
The Aubers are not prepared for any electrical noise, usual entry routes are the sensors and power. A quick test would be to pull the sensor loose and try it again, then we will know which route the noise is entering. You might be able to tame it by looping the power and sensor wires through ferrite rings/sleeves from radio shack to reduce the amount of the noise tormenting the Auber PID controller. The ferrite cores should be as close to the controller as practical to limit uptake after the filter. Beyond that then placing the ignition module inside a metal box is the last resort if the controller still acts up.
If the controller does not drop the ignition and you can live with the display going crazy, you might get by with leaving this as is. Not sure if the electrical noise is having adverse effects on the controller, but it is not likely that is doing any good.
 
If I unplug the RTD probes I will get Error displayed on the PID but it will not jump around so I don't know if we can get anything from that (you tell me). I have emailed Auber about the issue as well. They suggest, for troubleshooting, to power the PID from a separate source. If that works what would that tell me?

I really appreciate the help. I can follow a diagram as well as the next guy but when it comes to troubleshooting these issues I am lost.
 
That let me know that the temperature sensor is the culprit for the noise path, and could use the ferrite sleeve to block the electrical noise from the ignition. Another quick test would be to clamp a ground wire between pot and frame and see if that cuts the noise problem down, pot is acting like an antenna for the spark noise.
Another question is the sensor lead wires covered with a braided wire shield?, if so then grounding that will help block the electrical noise.
 
This is the RTD I am using (the deluxe model)
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20_15&products_id=267

The part external to the control panel is shielded but the inside section is not. Should/Can I make a change here that would help? I will pick up the sleeve tomorrow and try it out. I am a little confuse of where to put the sleeve/sleeves. Close to the panel? Exterior or Interior. I guess I am thinking it should be clamped as close to the PID as possible. Is this correct?
 
From the picture of the probe, the wires are not shielded and are acting like an antenna for the spark module noise. A quick and cheap test is aluminum foil wrapped around the temperature sensor leads with a bare copper wire for grounding running a few inches into and in contact with the foil, then attached to the frame to direct noise away from the controller input. A better solution would be a shielded 20 Ga 3 conductor cable to replace the unshielded wires shown that is meant to minimize the noise pickup.
As to the ferrite sleeves, as close to the controller as possible is the normal installation location.
 
The ferrite sleeves worked. I also had to hook the ground up in this manner.
Igniter to ignition module and also gas controller to frame.
Thanks for all your help

image-3613138847.jpg
 
Hi everyone, been on this forum for a while and just now realizing that this is my first post.

Anyways I just got in a bunch of my parts to get this thing set up and I did a dry run with out hooking anything up to the gas, just all the electrical stuff to see if I could get it to work. To my surprise when the PID called for heat I got spark and everything on the first try and then it eventually timed itself out. Here are my questions: Is there a thermocouple that is suppose to be hooked up separately to the pilot light? How does the system know that the pilot is lit? Secondly I have no idea how to connect the 1/4" copper pilot tube. All I have is what appears to be a brass fitting that screws into the gas valve that has a 1/4" hole through it. While the tube fits pretty snug in there I don't see how its suppose to compress to form a seal.

Any help would be great. I'll post pics of the system once its finished.
 
The rod that the igniter is sparking off of is also a flame sensor. Let me know if you would like a few pics as I have the same set up.
 
Saj,
Insert the copper tube into the fitting until it bottoms out, then screw the fitting in about 1-1/2 turns, which compresses the internal ferrule around the tube to make a seal. This is a one time use item, if tube was not at the bottom of the ferrule you will need another compression fitting as once compressed it is not going to open up for the tubing after that.
As to the flame sense, the flame acts like a rectifier converting the AC spark into DC current flow which the ignition module detects with spark ignition.
The thermocouple type control valves use the thermocouple to generate power to energize an electromagnet inside the control valve, no pilot flame, no power to hold valve open and let gas flow through.
 
Thanks for the response. I'm going to try it out with the gas on this Tuesday, hopefully my luck continues and everything works. Also need to find a control panel box to fit all this stuff into.
 
hooked it up to the gas and still had the problem of the pilot shutting off after it was lit, then realized that i never grounded the pilot back to the unit....did that and everything worked fine. I do need to replace the compression valve on the burner side for the pilot, for some reason it didn't get a good seal and leaks gas. Occasionally the gas coming from the compression fitting will lite up and start melting my ground wire. need to wait for the rest of my parts to come in and I can start doing a final install.
Thanks for all the help!
 
The NG orifice is doing it's job correctly, if too much gas all of the flames will be white-yellow or blue with yellow tips, all flames would be the same, not random flames with color.
The occasional orange flame is likely the oil based paint used on the burner burning off or other contaminants blowing though the inside of the burner, not over fuel. Not to worry the paint oils or contaminants will soon burn off / run out and you will get all blue flames.
To adjust the flame level you can adjust the internal regulator in the honeywell valve to limit maximum flame, unscrew the cover and back off the spring to lower the flame, then put the cover back on.

First off thanks for all the help in this thread. Great info that helped me get going really quick.

I currently have a single tier non automated setup and just completed testing of one of my HW values and ignition modules. I am running LP. This all worked great once I realized I have one Auber with a bad relay.

As a separate test to check flame size I ran one burner through the HW valve, ignition modlue and one straight through the LP gas line. As expected (I am sure I read something to this somewhere on HBT) the burner running through the HW valve was not as high as the one running straight from the LP tank.

Would tighting the regulator spring as you described above increase my flame size on LP? The difference was about an inch and a half. (clearly visible after sun down) I love the idea of the automation but hate to think I may spend more time getting up to temps.

Thanks again.

FYI - Yes I did change all the orfices and spings for use with LP. I am running Hurricanes with the LP valve.
 
Would tighting the regulator spring as you described above increase my flame size on LP? The difference was about an inch and a half. (clearly visible after sun down) I love the idea of the automation but hate to think I may spend more time getting up to temps.

Yes, tightening (turning clockwise) the internal regulator spring on the valve will increase downstream pressure to the burner. Keep in mind that the valve has a min and max value that the regulator can regulate... I believe its from 8-12" wc for LP. What is your pressure going to your non-valved burner?
 
Yes, tightening (turning clockwise) the internal regulator spring on the valve will increase downstream pressure to the burner. Keep in mind that the valve has a min and max value that the regulator can regulate... I believe its from 8-12" wc for LP. What is your pressure going to your non-valved burner?

Thanks for the response.

Both were running from a 2 stage low pressure regulator. One burner with a HW valve from a 1/2 pipe, the other straight from the same 1/2 inch pipe.
 
So I hate to dig up an old thread (Not really if it gets results ;) ), but I'm curious if this PID would work as a more affordable option.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Digital...953?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257b0a8901

I assume it'd be wired like in this photo?

It should work to drive an SSR, but it doesn't have very good documentation on it. It seems like it's relay output for both of its outputs and it didn't say the magical word "SSd", which is short for solid state drive, so there is a slight chance it won't work out of the box as intended. It also doesn't look like it has very good tuning abilities because it has 3 built in settings. Again the verbiage is very vague and I don't know if that is referring to its ability to heat, cool, and heat/cool simultaneously. In any case, at less that $30 it could be worth buying one and testing it out. If it doesn't work, just go buy an Auber for $45 and use this one to control a kegerator. No real loss there.
 
Ha, actually, I think you just talked me into the auber...

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I have a MYPIN TA4. It works. The documentation sucks but there are enough threads that explain how it works. With that said, if I had the extra money to spend I would switch to Auber, they are just easier to work with.
 
Did you use the version with relay output or ssr? Was it wired to the s8610u like in this example? Did you need an ssr? Sorry for the barrage of questions, I need to cut somewhere and half way through my build this is probably the place...

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Ok... I thought I read that if I bought a pid with relay output, an ssr isn't necessary for this setup... Did I misunderstand? Is there an ssr in the original schematic I'm missing? If not, why does this pid require an ssr and the auber doesn't? Sorry for my ignorance, I appreciate the help of the community!

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For tat schematic you posted today you don't need an neither SSR nor PID with SSR only output. That PID you mentioned (TA4 RNR) has a relay output and fits perfectly for that setup.
 
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