togodoug
Well-Known Member
I'm using a hop bag for the bittering hops. How does that matter?
it still tastes bad
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I'm using a hop bag for the bittering hops. How does that matter?
togodoug
Well-Known Member
This is the situation. I've now been through this 4 or 5 times. I brew a batch and all goes well. I sample it at bottling and it tastes great, warm, flat but god taste and aroma. This time was a pale ale with mostly Cascade hops.
A week in the bottle its got a great head, good carbonation and tastes great.
Then after 20 days in the bottle it goes to crap. Slight aroma and its just off, like sour. It has a bitter, astringent taste. Like licking a tea bag. Some people say it tastes okay but it does not and just days earlier it was great, not okay.
I''m aging the bottles at about 70 degrees, maybe cooler.
So it seems all went well during brewing and bottling. It was good and went bad at about the time it should have aged to perfection.
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?
A week in the bottle its got a great head, good carbonation and tastes great.
Then after 20 days in the bottle it goes to crap. Slight aroma and its just off, like sour. It has a bitter, astringent taste. Like licking a tea bag. Some people say it tastes okay but it does not and just days earlier it was great, not okay.
I''m aging the bottles at about 70 degrees, maybe cooler.
So it seems all went well during brewing and bottling. It was good and went bad at about the time it should have aged to perfection.
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?
beerman0001
Well-Known Member
Not going to try to read though all of this thread. So this will b questions you have already answered. Is it all grain or extract? Need to know recopies? What does you water report look like? What is your bottling procedure?
Ogri
Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear you're still having, the same, problems.
Are you dry hopping? Are the hops, you are using, nice and fresh?
The only other thing I can think of is, when you leave the bottled beer to age/condition it isn't exposed to sunlight, is it?
After all of the points raised previously in this thread, and if none of the above, it's sounding increasingly likely that you're getting some sort of infection during your bottling process.
What exactly is your process for bottling??
Are you dry hopping? Are the hops, you are using, nice and fresh?
The only other thing I can think of is, when you leave the bottled beer to age/condition it isn't exposed to sunlight, is it?
After all of the points raised previously in this thread, and if none of the above, it's sounding increasingly likely that you're getting some sort of infection during your bottling process.
What exactly is your process for bottling??
Ogri
Well-Known Member
Can't see your reply to the above response.
Have you insured that the bottles are absolutely spotlessly clean BEFORE sanitizing and have you tried sanitizing with starsan, rather than iodophor?
togodoug
Well-Known Member
Bottles are very clean, cleaned with dish washing soap and water. If it was dirty bottles, why good beer in dirty bottles for 3 weeks, then ALL the rest are bad, at least a few should have been clean.
togodoug
Well-Known Member
Beer is aged inside a cooler with a quart bottle of frozen water to keep the beer cool.
I am not dry hopipng and as far as I now the hops are fresh. I get ingredents from Midwest.s
togodoug
Well-Known Member
What exactly is your process for bottling??[/QUOTE]
I mover the wort pale to a counter about 3' high.
I use a siphon to get the wart to a transfer bucket on the floor.
I then put transfer bucket on the counter, and fill bottles on the floor using the siphon.
I cap the bottles.
To sanitize I fill each cleaned bottle with iodaphore. I wipe out all buckets with iodaphore and run the iodaphore through all the hoses and siphon first.
I mover the wort pale to a counter about 3' high.
I use a siphon to get the wart to a transfer bucket on the floor.
I then put transfer bucket on the counter, and fill bottles on the floor using the siphon.
I cap the bottles.
To sanitize I fill each cleaned bottle with iodaphore. I wipe out all buckets with iodaphore and run the iodaphore through all the hoses and siphon first.
togodoug
Well-Known Member
I've used several recepies. Why would that matter? Why would it be good for 20 days then go bad depending on the ingredients? I do not have water report but have used several different waters including rain water. This last batch was 2 gal. rain water, one gal distilled and two gals Kirkland brand bottled water.
Evan_L
Well-Known Member
How much splashing occurs when you siphon?
togodoug
Well-Known Member
I have had some air in the syphon hose, not much splashing.
Pommy
Well-Known Member
I'm sure this has all been said before but it sounds like an infection to me. Have you tried getting a FV? It can take a white for infection to show, if you store your bottled beer for a long time do you get gushers? If all these have been asked previously just ignore.
togodoug
Well-Known Member
I don't know what FV means, nor what gushers are. I've stored some beer for about a year and it still is fine. A batch starts bad, turns bad in 3 weeks, or is fine for a long time.
Ogri
Well-Known Member
I can't be dead certain why it's good for a week or so and then suddenly around the three week stage it starts to taste bad but that does seem like something that would happen if an infection had taken hold of the batch.
Did you have a few batches between March and this one that ended up tasting fine all the way 'til you finished the last bottles??
The following isn't scientifically supported with any experience or evidence but, I wonder if it could be some form of wild yeast that is capable of high concentration in really warm and humid climates? Just exposure at bottling time being enough for this yeast to contaminate the brew. If so that might explain why the whole batch is affected and not just a few bottles. Although I'd have thought that the alcohol content of the beer should prevent a wild yeast being able to get hold of the batch.
You don't mill grains in the same place as you bottle your beer by any chance, do you?
Really hope you can get to the root of this problem and start enjoying your beer.
If it seems like you should have no air in the hose, but then get some, it could be some CO2 coming out of the beer as you rack to bottle.
I have noticed that an infection can develope over the finishing of the beer, so having good at 1 week and then bad at 3 makes sense to me. If your carb is typically good at 1 week, I suggest you look at stove top pasturizing to kill everything in your bottles again. That should at least lengthen the time before it goes bad (boiling doesn't kill everything, but comes close).
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-pics-193295/
after reading through this thread, i feel like it must be the water or the yeast. those are the two things that seem to be the same batch after batch.
i had an astrigent taste in two beers. both were dark english beers and english yeasts fermented in the upper 60s to low 70s. lower temps or using a different yeast (like s-05) fixed the problem. the tastes did fade after a while, but it was a long while, like 12+ weeks after bottling.
i had an astrigent taste in two beers. both were dark english beers and english yeasts fermented in the upper 60s to low 70s. lower temps or using a different yeast (like s-05) fixed the problem. the tastes did fade after a while, but it was a long while, like 12+ weeks after bottling.
aceparadis
Well-Known Member
Change your sanitizer, sounds like your not rinse throughly enough.
togodoug
Well-Known Member
I've used severla different waters and use s-05
togodoug
Well-Known Member
Is there an issue with this sanitizer? I had used One Step and was assured Iodiphore wass the way to go
Okay, I've read this entire thread and learned many things! I kinda have the same thing going on (bitter astringent) off flavor after bottling. Just a suggestion so your not wasting $30-$40 plus shipping on all these kits. just get some DME and some hops (I'm sure one of the veterans here can give you a recipe) do some 3 gallon or even 1 gallon batches so you can do a little testing without having to dump 5 gallons of beer?
Right now I have a 3 gallon batch with 3.5# extra light DME and crystal hops. I pitched at a 74 and am fermenting around 67. I'm also using a different fermentor. It had a bitterness at from the hydro sample but I think that might be hops.
Right now I have a 3 gallon batch with 3.5# extra light DME and crystal hops. I pitched at a 74 and am fermenting around 67. I'm also using a different fermentor. It had a bitterness at from the hydro sample but I think that might be hops.
OK - I only read about 11 pages of this, so I apologies in advance if you have to repeat. A lot of this could be overkill, but I'm taking a "doctor at a loss" approach and perscribing broad spectrum brewing antibiotics. Some of the stuff here wasn't covered in what I read, while others are restating. My biggest suspicions are as follows #'s 1,2,5,6, and 10 below. Any one of these could contribute
Here are the areas I could see a potential problem.
#1 - Bad/Stale LME
Not sure if this would actually cause your problem, but weird sweetness or stale flavor can come from old liquid extract. Given you're on an island and they probably don't refrigerate the extract on the boat over, that could be a problem. If your weather is cooler around the time that your 2 good beers were made, i'd bet that as a contributing factor
#2 - Stubborn infection in your fermenting/bottling equipment:
Some infections are damn near impossible to kill. Your yeast would outcompete the bugs during regular fermentation, and you might not notice them at bottling. However after priming sugar and a few months in the bottle, they'd have time to grow and cause problems. I had a few of my lower ABV english bitters go south because of this - half the bottles were good, and half had this weird, bitter, twangy aftertaste. I had the same problem with kegged beer until i thoroughly scrubbed everything, soaked in PBW, rinsed, and sanatized. The only way to get rid of infected plastic, however, is to get new plastic components
.
#3 - lingering speck of something in bottles:
If you're getting the problem from every bottle, this is not the issue. However a little dust is all it takes. This also goes for the jugs of RO or distilled water - you need to iodiophore the outside of the jugs (60 seconds contact) before you open them and pour them in.
#4 - Oxidation due to temp control around bottles
According to JZ, bottlecaps are not a perfect seal. If your bottles are in an area where there are a lot of hot and cold changes (high temp during day, low temp at night) it will change the pressure in the bottle, and that can suck in oxygen from outside air. I doubt this is your issue either, but it could be a contributing factor.
#5 - cleaning residue left in bottles or on equipment:
You should be able to tell this one right away. I think this is a partial problem given the way you explained an off taste from trying a bottle during bottling. Some people hate soap and water ... I've never had a problem ... but you have to rinse the bottles REALLY WELL. Also, residual Idiophore leaves a nasty taste. My recommendation (if you can get it) is to switch from soap/water or one step to Powdered Brewery Wash. Soak your bottles in it for 30 minutes, rinse multiple times, and then sanatize with San Star, Idiophore, or ez clean (last resort). Also, if you can get a sanatizer injector and a bottle tree. The injector will use less sanatizer, and the tree helps it drain out. You want to use no more than 1/2 oz per 5 gallons of water.
#6 - you're getting contaminated tap water or tap water flavors in the beer:
I hate to say this because of $, but if you're not already using the cheap(ish) RO water to mix all your cleaning chemicals, and to rinse your bottles out. Cloudy sanatizers are typically bad sanatizers (at least in the case of san star) - your seeing precipitate from the sanatizer reacting with your water, which means it's less effective.
#7 - Astringency
Technically heat is not the problem here. You could mash up to boiling with steeping grains if you wanted to (not that you should). As a number of folks have pointed out, if heat = astringency, then decoction mash wouldn't be done. *However* heat plus high water PH will definitely cause astringency. If you can't figure out the problem another way, this could be it. Get a test strips and a food grade acid mix. If your water is high PH (over 5) you need to adjust it. One caveat to this is that decoction mashing is done with base malts - this may not hold as true for steeping malts. Just to be safe though, get your temp down to 150ish.
8 - Extract twang
If your LME is not pre-hopped, you probably don't need to add it at 60 minutes. It's already been mashed, turned into wort, and boiled down to syrup. Putting the LME in for less time (last 20 minutes) should be fine. If the LME gets on the bottom of your pot it could scortch, which will leave a bitter, almost burnt flavor.
9 - Boil:
You could be seeing a problem if you're not getting a good boil. Is there any way you can get an outdoor cooker and propane tank out where you are? It'll save you a lot of sanity (much faster heating times), and you can do full boils.
10 - Old Hops
I can't tell you exactly what old hops taste like, but I've read that it ain't good. If your hops aren't coming in a foil reflective bag, or there is an indication they're over a year old and haven't been refrigerated, that could be causing some of your problems too.
11. Put beer pot in ice water, rather than pouring ice water in beer
This is painfully expensive, and less effective, but it will keep any bugs from the ice out of your beer. Chill the boiled wort first, then add your jugs of Distilled water (cool them in the fridge) and you should see a significant difference.
12. Boil with the lid OFF
I doubt this is a problem with extract, but I've heard that you can get "DMS" stuck in the beer if you don't let it boil off.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help - I've traded my beaches for rivers and bridges. Good for brewing, bad for vitamin D production!
Here are the areas I could see a potential problem.
#1 - Bad/Stale LME
Not sure if this would actually cause your problem, but weird sweetness or stale flavor can come from old liquid extract. Given you're on an island and they probably don't refrigerate the extract on the boat over, that could be a problem. If your weather is cooler around the time that your 2 good beers were made, i'd bet that as a contributing factor
#2 - Stubborn infection in your fermenting/bottling equipment:
Some infections are damn near impossible to kill. Your yeast would outcompete the bugs during regular fermentation, and you might not notice them at bottling. However after priming sugar and a few months in the bottle, they'd have time to grow and cause problems. I had a few of my lower ABV english bitters go south because of this - half the bottles were good, and half had this weird, bitter, twangy aftertaste. I had the same problem with kegged beer until i thoroughly scrubbed everything, soaked in PBW, rinsed, and sanatized. The only way to get rid of infected plastic, however, is to get new plastic components
.#3 - lingering speck of something in bottles:
If you're getting the problem from every bottle, this is not the issue. However a little dust is all it takes. This also goes for the jugs of RO or distilled water - you need to iodiophore the outside of the jugs (60 seconds contact) before you open them and pour them in.
#4 - Oxidation due to temp control around bottles
According to JZ, bottlecaps are not a perfect seal. If your bottles are in an area where there are a lot of hot and cold changes (high temp during day, low temp at night) it will change the pressure in the bottle, and that can suck in oxygen from outside air. I doubt this is your issue either, but it could be a contributing factor.
#5 - cleaning residue left in bottles or on equipment:
You should be able to tell this one right away. I think this is a partial problem given the way you explained an off taste from trying a bottle during bottling. Some people hate soap and water ... I've never had a problem ... but you have to rinse the bottles REALLY WELL. Also, residual Idiophore leaves a nasty taste. My recommendation (if you can get it) is to switch from soap/water or one step to Powdered Brewery Wash. Soak your bottles in it for 30 minutes, rinse multiple times, and then sanatize with San Star, Idiophore, or ez clean (last resort). Also, if you can get a sanatizer injector and a bottle tree. The injector will use less sanatizer, and the tree helps it drain out. You want to use no more than 1/2 oz per 5 gallons of water.
#6 - you're getting contaminated tap water or tap water flavors in the beer:
I hate to say this because of $, but if you're not already using the cheap(ish) RO water to mix all your cleaning chemicals, and to rinse your bottles out. Cloudy sanatizers are typically bad sanatizers (at least in the case of san star) - your seeing precipitate from the sanatizer reacting with your water, which means it's less effective.
#7 - Astringency
Technically heat is not the problem here. You could mash up to boiling with steeping grains if you wanted to (not that you should). As a number of folks have pointed out, if heat = astringency, then decoction mash wouldn't be done. *However* heat plus high water PH will definitely cause astringency. If you can't figure out the problem another way, this could be it. Get a test strips and a food grade acid mix. If your water is high PH (over 5) you need to adjust it. One caveat to this is that decoction mashing is done with base malts - this may not hold as true for steeping malts. Just to be safe though, get your temp down to 150ish.
8 - Extract twang
If your LME is not pre-hopped, you probably don't need to add it at 60 minutes. It's already been mashed, turned into wort, and boiled down to syrup. Putting the LME in for less time (last 20 minutes) should be fine. If the LME gets on the bottom of your pot it could scortch, which will leave a bitter, almost burnt flavor.
9 - Boil:
You could be seeing a problem if you're not getting a good boil. Is there any way you can get an outdoor cooker and propane tank out where you are? It'll save you a lot of sanity (much faster heating times), and you can do full boils.
10 - Old Hops
I can't tell you exactly what old hops taste like, but I've read that it ain't good. If your hops aren't coming in a foil reflective bag, or there is an indication they're over a year old and haven't been refrigerated, that could be causing some of your problems too.
11. Put beer pot in ice water, rather than pouring ice water in beer
This is painfully expensive, and less effective, but it will keep any bugs from the ice out of your beer. Chill the boiled wort first, then add your jugs of Distilled water (cool them in the fridge) and you should see a significant difference.
12. Boil with the lid OFF
I doubt this is a problem with extract, but I've heard that you can get "DMS" stuck in the beer if you don't let it boil off.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help - I've traded my beaches for rivers and bridges. Good for brewing, bad for vitamin D production!
togodoug
Well-Known Member
I've done the DME make my own recipe route.
togodoug
Well-Known Member
togodoug
Well-Known Member
Hop bitterness would develop after 3 weeks in the bottle? I used 1 oz Cascade at 60, 30 and 5 min.
I was referring to the hop bitterness from littlejoe's batch, not yours. Sorry for the confusion.
Regarding your post above, try mixing the iodophor with the RO water, and putting your bottles upside down to drain for a few minutes before bottling. Also make sure you aren't mixing the iodophor too strong.
Regarding bottle storage, they need to be at ferment temps (68ish) for 3-6 weeks to get full carb. Also make sure the bottles are stored upright - you can get weird (metallic) flavors from the caps.
Finally, you may want to give Midwest an email and see if they have any ideas. They may have other intl. customers with similar issues.
Regarding your post above, try mixing the iodophor with the RO water, and putting your bottles upside down to drain for a few minutes before bottling. Also make sure you aren't mixing the iodophor too strong.
Regarding bottle storage, they need to be at ferment temps (68ish) for 3-6 weeks to get full carb. Also make sure the bottles are stored upright - you can get weird (metallic) flavors from the caps.
Finally, you may want to give Midwest an email and see if they have any ideas. They may have other intl. customers with similar issues.
Forgot to answer your question on the ice. Basically make an ice bath for your hit pot and place the pot in the ice bath, rather than putting ice directly into your wort. Cool the wort to 80 or so, then add distilled water to your wort from fridge temps to top off.
His water with bacteria would be easy to test. He could simply sanatize a bottle, put in it some sugar and some water and put a loose cover on it like a yeast starter. If the water is bad, then after a couple of weeks, the FG of the solution should be 1.000, and taste should be off, etc. I'm think about the size of a yeast starter, so like 100grams of sugar with 1 liter of water - or I think about 1/2cup? with 32 oz? I think that is right ratio.
Basically you are trying to make a growth medium similar to, but not identical to beer, and out of as inexpensive materials as possible.
Basically you are trying to make a growth medium similar to, but not identical to beer, and out of as inexpensive materials as possible.
Sea_of_Shells
Well-Known Member
I figured I'd chime in here. Recently, I learned the importance of pitching rate. Overworked yeast tend to make awful tasting beers. Are you making yeast starters? What are the estimated abv of the beers you have already brewed?
togodoug
Well-Known Member
i use dry yeast
Ogri
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but usually that kind of off flavour will be apparent at bottling, if you taste the sample, wouldn't it?
Sea_of_Shells
Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter whether it's dry yeast or liquid yeast, the viability of yeast in kits is always pretty low (at least in my experience). My advice going forward would be to pick up a 2 liter Erlenmeyer flask (about $15 on Amazon) and start making yeast starters. There is a ton of information on them on this site, and Youtube is full of videos on how to make them. If your beer is over, say, 1.050 OG, I'd say you need to make a starter if you want a decent pitch rate. It's just one extra step that can exponentially increase the quality of your beer. Happy yeast make happy beer.
Sea_of_Shells said:
Almost everything I've read says to not make starters of dry yeast. Manufacturers go to a lot of effort to dry them with the right concentrations of sugars and nutrients to jump start the fermentation process. Putting them in a starter leads to exhaustion rather than propagation - recommended approach is to rehydrate in sterilized (boiled) distiller water that has been cooled to correct temps.
That said, Sea's main point is still correct. You may need to rehydrate and use more packets to hit your target pitch rates.
togodoug
Well-Known Member
I'm getting more confused. This last time the batch bubbled for abut 18 days and the FG was where is should be (don't remember) so I'm wondering why yeast is suspected?
I don't use kits and usually use us-05. I just can't get liquid yeast.
It seems most people think its sanitation. I don't like that idea because I think I'm doing all I can, including changing siphon tubes and fermentation bucket. This brings me to two questions:
1. If its yeast v. bacteria, can someone describe the difference in taste? What does infection taste like and what does bad yeast taste like?
2. Has anyone thought of oxidation? I have noticed some air bubbles in my siphon tube, it can come in where the tube attaches to the auto siphon. I have also sloshed the wort a lot, poured it to transfer bucket while still about 100 degrees and put it in an ice bath and spun it (like a champaigne bottle in an ice chill at a restaurant I can't afford). I wonder if this could be the issue? I've used this method of chilling a few times, some of them came out fine so I doubt it. The air in the siphon hose I wonder about. What would oxidation taste like?
Ogri
Well-Known Member
Ever drunk sherry?? Compare that to a nice, freshly opened bottle of wine and you'll get a rough idea of how oxidized wine tastes. Oxidized beer is supposed to resemble wet cardboard in the flavour department.
togodoug
Well-Known Member
I know this is tough, thanks. I'd say more astringent, like a tea bag, but don't know that you can't say cardboard. The smell is not good and the after taste just hangs.
OK, I've read through the entire thread...
To me, this sounds like an infection. A re-occurring one.
When asked about your cleaning and sanitizing practices, you always say I sanitize like xxxx.
Cleaning and sanitizing are two different things.
Once, you mentioned using dish soap, and many times you've mentioned using a sponge.
There is no need to ever use a sponge.
Contaminated plastic will harbor bacteria.
Cleaning:
Replace used plastic buckets, hoses, etc.
Use a fresh, clean wash cloth.
Use oxy-clean/water only to clean equipment.
Take apart everything to clean (bottling spigots, hose from cane, etc.). Disassemble everything.
Use a bottle brush and oxy-clean to clean bottles really good.
Rinse everything with clean (sanitary) water and allow to dry upside down.
Sanitizing:
Use sterile gloves.
Since your water is so questionable, I would opt for Star-San, since it's a true no-rinse sanitizer (Iodofor should be rinsed, and the no-rinse that comes in the kit is not a sanitizer).
Mix a 5-gallon bucket full, and fully submerge stuff that fits in the bucket.
Use a spray bottle to sanitize everything else.
Don't rinse the Star-San... it's un-flavored, and is actually good for the yeast.
Transfer wort directly onto Star-San wetted buckets, hoses, canes etc. Bottle onto freshly dipped Star-San bottles.
Don't fear the foam.
IMHO, you've GOT to get your hands on some Star-San and some fresh plastic-ware.
To me, this sounds like an infection. A re-occurring one.
When asked about your cleaning and sanitizing practices, you always say I sanitize like xxxx.
Cleaning and sanitizing are two different things.
Once, you mentioned using dish soap, and many times you've mentioned using a sponge.
There is no need to ever use a sponge.
Contaminated plastic will harbor bacteria.
Cleaning:
Replace used plastic buckets, hoses, etc.
Use a fresh, clean wash cloth.
Use oxy-clean/water only to clean equipment.
Take apart everything to clean (bottling spigots, hose from cane, etc.). Disassemble everything.
Use a bottle brush and oxy-clean to clean bottles really good.
Rinse everything with clean (sanitary) water and allow to dry upside down.
Sanitizing:
Use sterile gloves.
Since your water is so questionable, I would opt for Star-San, since it's a true no-rinse sanitizer (Iodofor should be rinsed, and the no-rinse that comes in the kit is not a sanitizer).
Mix a 5-gallon bucket full, and fully submerge stuff that fits in the bucket.
Use a spray bottle to sanitize everything else.
Don't rinse the Star-San... it's un-flavored, and is actually good for the yeast.
Transfer wort directly onto Star-San wetted buckets, hoses, canes etc. Bottle onto freshly dipped Star-San bottles.
Don't fear the foam.
IMHO, you've GOT to get your hands on some Star-San and some fresh plastic-ware.
togodoug
Well-Known Member
When I sanatize with iodophor I don't rinse after. I put the wort in the bucket still wet, run it all through the tubes and don't flush it with water, just run it through, and fill and submurge the bottles, then empty them after being full for a few minutes and then fill with beer. I had thought Iodophor was also a no rinse sanatizer?
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