Has anyone made Sake before?

I know Sake is not technically a wine but thought this would be the best place to post. I would like to make a small batch of Sake and was considering the MoreBeer.com kit as a starter. It seems relatively easy (at least thats what they claim). However, reading about it on the net, it seems a bit harder. Im curious if anyone as made Sake in the past and what advice they might give me. Also, I searched for the topic and read all the threads. I am still a bit confused.

Cheers,
Bill

I tried once but I wasn't successful and I put it off. I don't remember all the proper terms, but I basically planned to do the following:

1. Steam some short grain rice (this can be hard to find)
2. Add some mold spores to the rice (this is all that came in my kit)
3. Leave the rice at 80 F, mix twice a day and let the rice get a nice white covering of white mold
4. Add water, citric acid and yeast to the rice
5. Ferment at cool temps

I managed to get past steps 1 & 2, but failed at 3. My first attempt I didn't keep the rice moist enough and the rice just dried out. On my second attempt, I got a nice white mold to form, but I let it go 1 day too long and it was then covered in yellow and black molds. I decided to shelve the project for the fall since the fermentation requires cool temps and my basement is too warm in the summer. The process seems to require more attention then beer brewing since you have to constantly check on the rice.

There are other simpler and other more complicated methods, but this is the basic steps I settled on. I found that the information online about this process is sparse and sometimes contradicting. It seems that brewing sake at home is illegal in Japan and that is where most of the knowledge is on the subject.

I toured a Sake factory a few years back in Aizuwakamatsu. Did not understand really anyting that they told me. Only thing that I got out of it is that you need really pure water to get a good Sake. Has something to do with the minerals and such. Come to think of it, I really don't remember finishing the tour

they sell sake kits at my LHBS, thats all I can add to this thread though.

Billpa - I am starting my own home brew this week. I have not finished a batch, but will document eveything I do and let you know how it goes. As of now I have some high grade small grain sushi rice from Martin Rice, Sake yeast from WYeast, and koji from Vision Brewing. Other than that I am winging it. If anyone has advice.. Please let me know. I have read TONS of online information. Let me know if you got any questions and I can try to answer. Also, I will plan on starting a thread that I can update and take pictues of my process in the future.

Never tried it myself, but here's a link to one of Fred Eckhart's recipes. http://recepty.veruska.cz:8000/_sys/eckhardt-sake.pdf.

Fred is one of the landmarks in Oregon homebrewing (actually he's fairly fast for 80+) and is also the Fred who inspired the brew by Hair of the Dog.

Yes, there is a degree of skill required to make Sake. I followed the Vision Brewing recipes and used their koji-kin spores. The beginners recipe is ok but the intermediate and advanced produced a very pleasant intriguing drop indeed. However I recommend starting at the easy end of the project as there is little similarity to other homebrew projects.

The secrets seem to be:the kome- koji must be grown correctly with white fibers evident.There is a very good picture of this at their web site.
http://www.visionbrewing.com
You must really make sure the inoculated rice does not dry out or the other extreme that the condensation does not make the rice sodden. They recommend the "take away container" technique i.e.container wrapped in a towel with a large plastic bottle filled with hot water straight from the tap (60 degrees C) change every 12 hours. This worked well for me.

Secondly: temperature is important.. by keeping the temperature below 21 centigrade and use of hops in the water, infections can be avoided.

All in all, a very interesting and informative homebrew project producing a very nice drop.

The trouble is every one wants to try it, being unusual, I did not get to drink much of it myself.

my boys asked me if I could make sake.....

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billpa said:

I know Sake is not technically a wine but thought this would be the best place to post. I would like to make a small batch of Sake and was considering the MoreBeer.com kit as a starter. It seems relatively easy (at least thats what they claim). However, reading about it on the net, it seems a bit harder. Im curious if anyone as made Sake in the past and what advice they might give me. Also, I searched for the topic and read all the threads. I am still a bit confused.

Cheers,
Bill

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What would you like to know? Sorry missed this thread earlier or I would have posted. I actually came across it searching for a link to another thread for someone asking same question...

I brew a batch a year. I am pleased with it. A bit on the sweet side but nice.

Thanks for the reply. When I started searching the forum for sake posts, I did see your name come up alot. Im just looking to make a small batch of sake...would like to keep it as simple as possible for the first batch. Are the kits from B3 any good?

billpa said:

Thanks for the reply. When I started searching the forum for sake posts, I did see your name come up alot. Im just looking to make a small batch of sake...would like to keep it as simple as possible for the first batch. Are the kits from B3 any good?

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I have never used the B3 kit no. I get a "kit" through my LHBS which is this.

Essentially it is only a packet of mold spores (koji kin) and I only paid about $9 ordering it through my LHBS. I then buy seperate yeast. The B3 kit you mentioned looks like it is essientially a shubo-moto (starter essentially) it has the yeast, rice mold, nutrient, and lactic acid already started for you. If it is done correctly I would guess that would be a pretty easy way to try it out. It would save you quite a few steps in that you would not need to grow your own koji mold. They seem to imply you need do nothing else to it but warm it up and stir. I would suggest steaming some additional fresh rice and adding that to it.

I say go for it. If it you are encouraged to try it again more with complexity let me know. I have some more info I can share with you. I have some links to "simple recipes" that walk you through the whole process. It is fun, but time consuming.

Not sure what your experience with sake is but what you will end up with will be sweeter than your standard junmai sake which is typically sold in the U.S.. Also, it can be quite um, chewy, depending on how much you process it. In other words, it may not be what you expect and it is an aquired taste.

Good luck and let me know if you have anymore questions.


KoG

Hey, I found a really good source fo information.

This guy has some good brewing tips:
http://www.taylor-madeak.org

He posts alot on here:
http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewforum.php?f=21

Check it out if you wanna make some sake.

I also answer all questions I get in my e-mail through the aforementioned web site, personally and promptly.

Taylor-MadeAK said:

I also answer all questions I get in my e-mail through the aforementioned web site, personally and promptly.

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Welcome to HBT! Sake has been on my to do list and will enjoy going through your site. I hope you hang here once in a while since Sake does come up in conversation occasionally. Maybe you can turn some of these crazy beer, wine, cider, mead folks to the Sake side.

Since this is a Sake thread, if anyone knows how to read Japanese I would appreciate some help. I was given a few bottles of Sake as a gift from my aunt who was in Japan over the summer. Everything is in Japenese and I'm trying to decipher it. Supposedly the woman drinks one bottle chilled and the guy drinks another but I want to know what the text is so that I can understand WTF I am drinking and what the symbolism is.

So if anyone can read Japanese, please PM me and I'll send you some pics of what I have.

Hey, thanks for the welcome, Nurmey! Taylor-MadeAK.org was getting hits from this thread, so I thought I'd come and see if I could offer my support for the interested sake brewers among you. My e-mail inbox is always open, and comments on any of my guides gets an instant e-mail to me (so make sure you use a good e-mail address) - I'm always happy to answer any questions you may happen to have.

Oh, and if you've got November's issue of BYO magazine already (still waiting for my copy): yes, I'm that guy.

Hey Taylor-MadeAK,

Welcome from a fellow Sake brewer. Man, where was your website a few years ago!

I'll definitely be checking it out more thoroughly but, looks like a good primer from my brief perusal. I too looked to Fred Eckhart's info (though I have not found a copy of his book) posted online. Took me a bit to sift through and learn. Your site looks helpful especially with the photos. I am a very visual person myself so that helps.

I have not brewed any this year but I may. Might pick your brains (after your website) for some pointers. Ever made any dong-dong ju (korean rice "wine")? I have been playing around with that. Pretty much blindly as there is even less info out there.


Kanpei!

Oh, one question actually. Does your sake come out sweet or dry? I never understood why Fred suggested adding rice at the end to sweeten the sake as I have always ended up with sweet sake never very dry as he suggests it will be. Thought perhaps I went wrong somewhere...

My sake always comes out very dry, with a final gravity of about 0.996 (SMV +6 or so), and I like it that way. In my experience, skipping the moromi buildup and just adding all of the rice and koji at once will usually result in very sweet sake with a final gravity of around 1.012 - 1.015.

Where was my site a few years ago? That's a good question, man. I didn't start seeing all these homebrew forums start adding a sake section until 2007, and when I saw that start happening I figured there was a growing interest in the subject of making sake at home. After looking around on the web to see what other kinds of resources were already available, I decided that a better guide was needed. So I wrote one, and posted it on one of my own forums. Then I translated it over to Northern Brewer. After watching it get a huge response, I decided the guide needed its own web site.

Thus taylor-madeak.org, a domain name I've owned for 10 years or so, was reborn.

I always welcome questions, man. Need a brain to pick? Pick away!

I've never heard of "dong dong ju." The only Korean homebrew rice wine I've heard of are takju, makgeolli, and the soju that is distilled from them. Takju is similar to Japanese doburoku, but the diastatic component isn't a mold like koji, it's a product called nuruk that is made from malt (barley or wheat) that has been pressed into cakes and toasted, then crumbled or ground before use. I've never made it before, but you can find a detailed method for making it here. If I were to try making that, I would make suitable changes to the process to bring it more in line with modern American homebrewing practices.

Thanks.

I don't skip the moromi stage. I do the full process detailed by Eckhardt in the pdf of his "new sake recipe"

I have often wondered if it was because I did not use properly polished sake rice. I use short grain sweet rice (eating rice) which is not as highly polished. That is about the only thing I can think of that is not spot on in my process.

Anyway, dong-dong ju is a bit like doboruku as well but very thick and porridge like. It has quite a different flavor though, very distinctive. Usually served ice cold in a big bowl with a scoop. At least that was how I had it served in Seoul. I have made nuruk as well, but admittedly had better results buying it from a Korean grocer. Thanks for the link, I believe I have seen that one and a coulple of others. Nothing as detailed as your site or Eckhardts recipe though.

Zymurgrafti said:

I have often wondered if it was because I did not use properly polished sake rice. I use short grain sweet rice (eating rice) which is not as highly polished. That is about the only thing I can think of that is not spot on in my process.

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You're using glutinous rice? That's why you're ending up with sweet sake. Glutinous rice is a misnomer because it doesn't contain any actual gluten, but it is very sticky and sweet because of its starch makeup. Glutinous rice (or mochigome in Japanese) is mostly made up amylopectin, with very little amylose. For reference, amylose is a straight chain of glucose molecules, while amylopectin is a branching chain of glucose molecules.

The problem that you're running into has to do with enzymes: koji produces mostly α-Amylase, which is good at chopping up the straight amylose polymers, but it just can't break the bonds at the branches in the amylopectin polymers. Any well-read brewer can tell you that it takes ß-Amylase to break those branch points, which means koji just isn't going to do it.

This is all a really complicated way of saying: you're using the wrong kind of rice! It has nothing to do with the polish level of the rice, it's all about the kind of starch it's made out of. Switch to a different kind of rice, doesn't really matter what it is as long as you're not using mochigome. For what it's worth, I really like the Kokuho Rose rice that is usually labeled as "sushi rice" at my local Asian market.

Zymurgrafi said:

Anyway, dong-dong ju is a bit like doboruku as well but very thick and porridge like. It has quite a different flavor though, very distinctive. Usually served ice cold in a big bowl with a scoop. At least that was how I had it served in Seoul. I have made nuruk as well, but admittedly had better results buying it from a Korean grocer. Thanks for the link, I believe I have seen that one and a coulple of others. Nothing as detailed as your site or Eckhardts recipe though.

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Sounds like the same thing as makgeolli to me. Regional dialect difference, maybe? Perhaps North Koreans and South Koreans have different names for the same product.

Well, yes I have been using mochigome in the last few batches. Before that I have used Kohuko Rose, Nishiki, and an organic Sushi rice out of the bulk bin at my local coop, brand unknown. Always sweet regardless. I'll go back to the sushi rice, which I believe is considered "medium grain"; although it is short in appearance, compared to the mochigome. I'll save the Mochigome for making mochi and Dduk I guess.

Okay, so much for that idea. Guess I am glad you debunked that theory before I placed an order for polished sake rice.

I'm using the F.H. Steinbart ginjo rice myself this year. Had a spare twenty-five bucks and figured I'd try it out and see what results. This is also using homemade koji for the first time as well, so it's not really a valid experiment due to changing too many variables at once, but it'll be interesting nonetheless. It's good rice, by the way. I'm pretty sure it's the same cultivar as the Kokuho Rose rice, but milled down much more than you'd be used to seeing. It's the very same rice used by SakeOne to produce their Momokawa sakes, so you know it's good rice because that is some good sake!

Don't stop using the mochigome just because I said something about it. Use it to make some huanjiu if you can get the red koji for it, or even to make your Korean rice wines. Once upon a time all rice wine was made with that variety of rice, but the Japanese developed a taste for dry sake so they changed the rice that they use for it.