Can you help - my Cream Stout was TERRIBLE...

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ViperMan

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Here was my recipe:

2.50 gal Deer Park (R), Bottled Water Water 1 -
3.50 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 56.5 %
0.75 lb Chocolate Malt (225.0 SRM) Grain 3 12.1 %
0.75 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 12.1 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5 8.1 %
0.20 lb Black Barley (Stout) (500.0 SRM) Grain 6 3.2 %
0.50 lb Milk Sugar (Lactose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 7 8.1 %
0.27 oz Magnum [14.70 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 23.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Saaz [2.40 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 9 2.3 IBUs

2.5 gallon batch

Single infusion - fly sparge, bottle carb with corn sugar...

Primary for 3 weeks, bottle for 3 weeks (and four days)

Has a very light taste - doesn't taste like a stout. Sorta tastes like a black light beer. Also has a VERY sour taste, almost like stale milk... Everything was purchased fresh, lactose SHOULD be good... I was really going for a nice, thick milk stout...

Did I use too little grain? The wrong base malt? Too much lactose? Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
 
That's a lot of dark grain for such a small batch! The sour taste is probably the acids from all that dark grain. That's about the amount I would use in a 5 gallon batch.
 
That's a lot of dark grain for such a small batch! The sour taste is probably the acids from all that dark grain. That's about the amount I would use in a 5 gallon batch.
Agreed. My dark beers contain ~.5lb of each black grain for 5 gallons. Your recipe nearly doubles the percent of each grain in the grain bill. Kyle
 
The main reason it tastes light is u dont have enough diastic power. U need 75% min base malt; pale, maris otter, 2 row or 6 row. Those malts allow u to use specialty grains, otherwise u are making TEA, like chamomile.....not beer. Do this nextime:

80% base malt
7.5 % roasted malt
5% chocolate
2.5 % crystal
2% black patent
3% wheat
Hops added at boil
Mash around 153-55 for 2-3 hours.
 
Oh yeah and drop all the lactose, this only for milk stouts, up to 1lb for a 5 gallon batch.
 
The main reason it tastes light is u dont have enough diastic power. U need 75% min base malt; pale, maris otter, 2 row or 6 row. Those malts allow u to use specialty grains, otherwise u are making TEA, like chamomile.....not beer. Do this nextime:

80% base malt
7.5 % roasted malt
5% chocolate
2.5 % crystal
2% black patent
3% wheat
Hops added at boil
Mash around 153-55 for 2-3 hours.

That makes no sense at all, and is terrible advice.

You have plenty of base malt to convert, and mashing for 2-3 hours is more than ridiculous. Either someone is fooling with you, or is ignorant of brewing so please ignore this advice.

The recipe isn't bad. With that much black barley, it should taste stout-like, but if you want a nice roasty stout you should use roasted barley. That's more of a porter recipe. If it's "sour", that could be a sign of infection.
 
That makes no sense at all, and is terrible advice.

You have plenty of base malt to convert, and mashing for 2-3 hours is more than ridiculous. Either someone is fooling with you, or is ignorant of brewing so please ignore this advice.

The recipe isn't bad. With that much black barley, it should taste stout-like, but if you want a nice roasty stout you should use roasted barley. That's more of a porter recipe. If it's "sour", that could be a sign of infection.

Lactobacillus infection makes for sour flavors. Watch your sanitation
 
If the nose has a slight sweaty note then it is likely lacto. As for the thin quality I don't think you mentioned your mash temp.
 
Yooper said:
That makes no sense at all, and is terrible advice.

You have plenty of base malt to convert, and mashing for 2-3 hours is more than ridiculous. Either someone is fooling with you, or is ignorant of brewing so please ignore this advice.

The recipe isn't bad. With that much black barley, it should taste stout-like, but if you want a nice roasty stout you should use roasted barley. That's more of a porter recipe. If it's "sour", that could be a sign of infection.

I dont know how u can say its bad advice since its corect advice. The recipe i showed makes amazing stout man.
 
I dont know how u can say its bad advice since its corect advice. The recipe i showed makes amazing stout man.

Well, the mashing for 2-3 hours is crazy, and the recipe isn't great. But if your beer is amazing for you, that's awesome.

But the diastatic power of maris otter is certainly sufficient (I didn't calculate it all out, but it certainly is) for that grain bill the OP posted. The grainbill is not bad, although I don't like that much chocolate malt in my stout.

By saying there was insufficient DP, that the mash needed to be for 2-3 HOURS, and that the recipe was bad, I'm calling it poor advice. All those points are simply incorrect.
 
Very sour? Stale milk? That *does* sound like an infection...was there anything funny growing in the fermenter? I think some infections are capable of over-attenuating the beer and leaving little residual sugar, which would contribute to the beer seeming thin.

What did you have for OG/FG? What was your actual mashing profile?
 
Well, the mashing for 2-3 hours is crazy, and the recipe isn't great. But if your beer is amazing for you, that's awesome.

But the diastatic power of maris otter is certainly sufficient (I didn't calculate it all out, but it certainly is) for that grain bill the OP posted. The grainbill is not bad, although I don't like that much chocolate malt in my stout.

By saying there was insufficient DP, that the mash needed to be for 2-3 HOURS, and that the recipe was bad, I'm calling it poor advice. All those points are simply incorrect.

Agreed 100%. If you like your recipe, awesome for you.

But telling somebody else to mash for 2-3 hours, that there isn't enough DP... this just makes no sense at all. These are TERRIBLE advice.
 
Hey all - thanks for the information and discussion. The "infection" theory sounds plausible, though I don't remember anything funky inside the fermenter, with the exception of maybe a thin oily film on top. I didn't fret over it simply because I had never made a stout before. I figured it was normal. But it tastes watery, almost like beer soda, and is very sour.

I adapted this recipe from a cream stout I found here on this site. It called for a dark chocolate malt. I found a pale chocolate at my HBS, so I added more of it to maintain color. I figured it would just make it more chocolatey... I haven't really learned the whole acidic thing yet. I guess I need to read those pages in Palmer's book that I kinda glossed over...

I also don't remember my mashing that well - I never got very dedicated at taking notes and recording things. That's my fault... But I always aim for 155, and if I recall on this brew, it held perfectly for 60 minutes.
 
...a thin oily film on top.

...

I adapted this recipe from a cream stout I found here on this site. It called for a dark chocolate malt. I found a pale chocolate at my HBS, so I added more of it to maintain color. I figured it would just make it more chocolatey... I haven't really learned the whole acidic thing yet. I guess I need to read those pages in Palmer's book that I kinda glossed over...

I also don't remember my mashing that well - I never got very dedicated at taking notes and recording things. That's my fault... But I always aim for 155, and if I recall on this brew, it held perfectly for 60 minutes.

I've seen that same kind of film on top of dark beers and didn't notice any unusual tartness.

The pale chocolate is still pretty dark so you wouldn't have had to bump it up much. The darker malts are going to be a bit more acidic but shouldn't be enough to make the beer sour. Without any other info I'd suspect infection.

Mashing at 155 should actually leave more body, not less. This is a good lesson for why to take more notes, though.
 
BTW I realize I'm spamming my own post, but I found this excellent article today - it really makes me think my recipe is pretty spot on.

http://***********/stories/beer-sty...er-styles/1160-milk-stout-it-does-a-body-good
 
Oh, I think the recipe is fine! It's more chocolate malt that I typically use, but the recipe isn't bad. And I think I said that earlier.

If this is sour, it sounds like a lacto infection. It's possible it's not, but if it's distinctly sour it would make me strongly consider a lacto infection.
 
Oh, I think the recipe is fine! It's more chocolate malt that I typically use, but the recipe isn't bad. And I think I said that earlier.

If this is sour, it sounds like a lacto infection. It's possible it's not, but if it's distinctly sour it would make me strongly consider a lacto infection.

Yooper,

Define "lacto infection" - something nasty that ate the lacto sugar, or something specifically wrong WITH the lactose? In other words was my lactose bad, or did I just screw up? :)

Thanks.
 
Yooper,

Define "lacto infection" - something nasty that ate the lacto sugar, or something specifically wrong WITH the lactose? In other words was my lactose bad, or did I just screw up? :)

Thanks.

Lactobacillus is a kind of bacteria that make lactic acid, which will provide that "sour milk" taste. It's a fairly common infection. Thankfully, it's not harmful, just makes your beer taste bad (unless that's what you're looking for, like in a Kentucky sour beer or Berliner Weisse). I've heard that it's very common to find lacto bugs on grain, which is why crushing grain in the same room you fill your fermenter is risky - you can end up with critters floating in the air that infect the beer.
 
Thanks Scotty, though I'm still not sure the source of it... Was it bad lactose from my LHBS? I don't crush my own grain. Might it be from dumping the grain into the mash tun though - lets off all that dust? Usually when I do this, my fermenter is still soaking in sanitizing solution, and often in a different room. I really do want to say that the last time I tried using lactose I got similar results... Maybe I should buy some lactose from an internet source. Maybe something is wrong with my LHBS...

Also my lactose got boiled for 10 minutes before cutting the heat, so anything IN the lactose SHOULD have been killed.

Dunno - I've never had a sanitation problem (at least that I've noticed...) So I'm wondering if my LHBS is to blame...
 
Thanks Scotty, though I'm still not sure the source of it... Was it bad lactose from my LHBS? ... I really do want to say that the last time I tried using lactose I got similar results... Maybe I should buy some lactose from an internet source. Maybe something is wrong with my LHBS...

Also my lactose got boiled for 10 minutes before cutting the heat, so anything IN the lactose SHOULD have been killed.

Dunno - I've never had a sanitation problem (at least that I've noticed...) So I'm wondering if my LHBS is to blame...

Unless the "lactose" is something else, it's not the problem. If you boiled it, there shouldn't be any potential for infection.

That said if only brews with lactose are giving you trouble, it's possible that's the problem. I don't know what else to tell you there.
 
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