Easy Way to Make Sour Beers (1 gal wort + dregs)

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Almighty

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So I have a new idea when it comes to making sour beer. So here are the complaints that I often hear about making sour beer:
1) Don't want to mess up the rest of your equipment
2) You don't have enough space to store the beer
3) You don't want to buy more equipment just to store beer
4) It can take a long time and you might not end up with a good beer.

I think I have the answer, well at least for myself. With the exception of a few styles (Flanders Red, Oud Bruin, and pLambic) I have decided to brew small 1 gal batches. By doing this I can use 1 gal jugs that are pretty cheap ($5.50 with cider at Whole Foods or $8 at the Homebrew Store). I brew every 3 weeks so by then I can drink a gallon of cider (without too many of the bad consequences), the other alternative which I have tried is to take whatever yeast I'm using at that time and pitch some in the store cider.

Ok so you now you either think yeah I like doing small batches for the ability to test an idea OR you think they are a waste of time and expensive. For you that think the later here is how I appease you. Another problem with making sour beers is that they do not perform well when the IBUs are high. So my idea is after making my wort and bringing it to a boil, I will add my bittering hops. And within a specified time depending on the amount of IBUs you want I will run-off some wort into my gallon container. Yes I understand it is boiling, but I have preheated the container under hot water and have not had a problem. I then cool this wort in the sink.

For yeast I do not buy any commercial yeast because to me that is cost prohibitive but I will pitch the dregs from a sour beer. This is nice because I have a great excuse to buy great beer and I have a nice beer to drink as I finish making the rest of the base batch. I try to buy a beer that I want my beer to have similar results. Make sure that you cool the bottle and let it settle, the longer the better. Pour the beer slowly and stop with about an ounce left in the bottle. Swish this remaining beer up very well (~minute), then pitch into you gallon container.

For these beers, I am fermenting that at ambient temperature which is 68-75F. I am starting these out using an airlock, then pitch some boiled oak cubes (.2-.4oz) depending on the beer and the taste that I want. I can then bottle these beers with separate tubing and if I like the beer than I can make a full batch the following year and use the gallon container as a starter.


I will update with my results.

Kreik (Old Beersel Framboise dregs)

Sour Pale Common (Petrus dregs)

Black Jolly Sour (Jolly Pumkin Bam Noire dregs)
 
So I have a new idea when it comes to making sour beer. So here are the complaints that I often hear about making sour beer:
1) Don't want to mess up the rest of your equipment
2) You don't have enough space to store the beer
3) You don't want to buy more equipment just to store beer
4) It can take a long time and you might not end up with a good beer.

1) You bought separate equipment for bottling
2) You still need somewhere for the gallon fermenter to go
3) You bought separate fermenters
4) Your sours could still end up needing a long time to complete


While I can appreciate what you're going for, I guess I missed how this was any easier or innovative.
 
1) You bought separate equipment for bottling
2) You still need somewhere for the gallon fermenter to go
3) You bought separate fermenters
4) Your sours could still end up needing a long time to complete


While I can appreciate what you're going for, I guess I missed how this was any easier or innovative.

I agree, also, you state not wanting to buy more fermentors as a problem for some, then you buy a bunch of 1gal jugs for 5$ each, you can buy a better bottle for ~25$, or the same as 5 of your jugs,

and you still can use the bottle dregs, you should supplement with at least one sour pack though to make sure you have all the necessary bugs, AND you can always reuse that slurry over and over again, and it will get more sour/funky over time making a better and better beer
 
1) You bought separate equipment for bottling
2) You still need somewhere for the gallon fermenter to go
3) You bought separate fermenters
4) Your sours could still end up needing a long time to complete

1)Ok, I guess I should have said minimal equipment. I had an old racking cane left since I switched to the autosiphon and I use old tubing that was on its way out for my clean beers. (So new stuff max $5)
2)Ok, again minimal space. Since sours don't really need to be temp controlled. I believe they actually develop better complexity with mild seasonal temperature changes. These gallon containers can be stored in more convenient spaces.
3)No, I bought apple cider/juice for my breakfast.
4)Yes, they will take the same amount of time but what was meant by that bullet is that you don't have to worry if they turn out poorly because they cost you very little.
 
I just pitched the dregs of 375 ml Consecration into the wort from my Belgian Golden Strong (1.060). Here is a link to a post with pictures that I will continue to update.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2010/10/dreg-series-russian-river-golden-sour.html
Russian%20River%20Consecration%20dregs%20Day%204.JPG
 
I've been wanting to do this for a while now. Im glad your not as lazy as myself ;)

I'll most likely pitch some dregs into my next couple of full batches, but I'm interested in hearing how these turn out.
 
Not a lot to report yet.
I have taken a gravity sample of all the ones I posted and then tasted them.
All of them have fermented down pretty low (all below 1.010) with either the bottling yeast or the bit of sacc that is left. The Confluence dregs that are a mixed pitch, fermented like a beast and is down to 1.000. For this one and a few others they will need some feeding along the way.
As for the taste of them. They were all pretty clean and boring. The only one that had a touch of sour so far was the Jolly Pumpkin dregs.
I think in the future I might give them all a few days to sour with some lacto from some grains. Then boil, cool, and then add the dregs.
I'll probably taste again on each batch's 6 month mark.
 
My sour beer process is similar in its simplicity. I do not pour boiling wort into a glass jug though.

I just pull a little under a gallon jug off of any appropriate batch that I want to sour or have extra wort or I will pull a gallon of a fermented batch. Then I either use dregs, cubes, or slurry from my other sours. I then put them in a dark corner and forget about them except to refill the airlock every couple months (actually, I sample them a lot too with the wine thief too).

I have a dedicated sour tap line and keg. Once one kicks, I just keg the next oldest one in the sour keg. Right now pipeline has enough for about 1-2 years before kegging. So far, all have been drinkable, and some quite good. Also have 2 5 gallon carboys going as "redneck" soleras. One light, one dark. If i have any extra wort or fermented beer from any batches, I just add it to the solera. I also pitch the dregs from every commercial sour beer I drink. There must be 50 different dregs in them.

Right now i have dry-hopped amarillo sour pale ale on tap. Not brewed to style, very little extra work, yet it is great beer.
 
I really like the idea of having a second runnings solera. Because the big problem with extracting the last runnings is the tannins you may get from the grains. With a sour beer that will be aged a while I can't see it being an issue. It may need to boiled down a bit, which is a little extra effort.

Also with adding all the dregs, you don't worry about one bad batch ruining your entire solera. I have read about bad experiences with some dregs so I try to limit them to 1 gal until they are somewhat proven.

Sounds like you have a nice rotation going there. That's sort of my plan, have each gallon going a year. Then bottle and add new wort.
 
Here is my most recent use of dregs in some extra wort (planned). This wort was chilled normally than transferred to a .5 gal jug.
I pitched a small amount of yeast that a friend had cultured from a bottle of Avery 15 which is the 2 Brett strains from Drie Fonteinen gueuze. You can read a lot more about these 2 strains on the Brettanmyces Project Site (specific links on my blog)

http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/01/dreg-series-avery-15-or-drie-brett.html
 
I had some free time and I have received a good number of requests to post an update. I usually wait till at least 6 months before trying but a few of these are less than that.

Summer Solstice Cousin w Oud Beersel and Cantillion dregs
Taste and Aroma are mild cherry. Still very clean, hopefully new dregs will help. The color is great. I will add more tart cherries in a few months.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2010/06/dreg-series-summer-kriek.html

California Common wort with Bavic Petrus dregs
Gravity 1.006
Sorta strange taste on this one - has some fruit flavors, a bit of funk, bit of sourness but the 1/2 gallon of California Common added too much bitterness. I need to decide where to go with this one. Maybe let it sour up a bit more then dry hop. That bitterness should keep fading.

http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2010/07/dreg-series-sour-pale-common.html

Black California Common with Jolly Pumpkin Bam Noire dregs

Gravity 1.010
HUGE sour, it was in your face and I love it, I touch more acetic than I'd like and I think that may be due to the amount of head space. This will probably get blended but I will see where it is in another 3 months.

http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2010/08/dreg-series-black-jolly-sour.html

Belgian Singel with Allagash Confluence dregs
Gravity - .099 - Well the Brett is coming to play. It is starting to have a nice aroma but the flavor is still much to be desired. I just found some Muscat grape juice from a local vineyard. I added the whole 750 mL. And I am getting very excited about the possibilities. Check again in another 3 months.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2010/08/dreg-series-belgian-single-sour.html

Belgium Dubbel wort with Lost Abbey Judgement dregs
Gravity 1.007

Has some funk on the nose and still some nice Belgian Dubbel taste. It does have a good amount of alcohol warmth. May blend with red wine when I bottle.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2010/09/dreg-series-lost-belgian-abbey-dubbel.html

Golden Strong with Russian River Consecration dregs

Gravity 1.004
Has some nice Belgium phenols, a slight funk and tart smell. Still needs a more time and maybe a feeding ( I'm thinking some fruit (I have some persimmons that were frozen fresh))

http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2010/10/dreg-series-russian-river-golden-sour.html

Old Ale with Avery 15 Brett

Gravity at 1.020 (that is 7.2% ABV, and 73% Apparent Attenuation)
The taste is fantastically sour. This beer tastes like a year old beer. It is not quite as complex as I want it and the malt flavor is hidden a bit behind all the sour fruity notes. Has a nice mouthfeel and is not too sweet. But easily one of the better sours I've had and only after a month!

http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/02/dreg-series-old-ale-with-avery-15-brett.html

More photos on the blog

Petrus%20Sour%20Pale%20Common%20-%207%20month%20update%20w%20pedio%20pellicle.JPG


2010%20Flander%27s%20Red%20-%209%20month.JPG
 
Sort of curious as to how quickly these develop, since they're such low gravity to begin with. Of course, a lambic recipe is not high gravity by any means, but if you're using second runnings of a beer like a single, what is the OG for your "sour gallon"?
 
My method did not use 2nd runnings. That was an idea by another poster. What I do is that I take wort from the boil. For some of my beers that I want lacto to be a big contributor then I take the wort out earlier in the boil so that I have very low IBUs (so its like a no boil Berliner). But to be honest most of my beers have just been from an extra gallon of wort that is boiled and cooled with the enitre batch. I make a 6 gal batch and 5 go to my carboy and 1 goes to my experimental gallon with dregs.
So the O.G. of my beers are either close to my preboil gravity or are the same as the rest of the batch.
I assume that the other poster will boil his second runnings down until he reaches the desired gravity.
 
I just brewed a 1.039 Ordinary Bitter. I used the left over wort that wouldn't fit into the carboy to throw some unmashed 2 row and maris otter on and let go in a 1 gal. carboy. It's about a half gallon and I'm thinking of adding left over from my next batch plus some blueberries to try and get some extra sugar in there. So far it has smelled a little band aidy (which some people I asked told me might happen), but has recently gotten a little more spicy. I do think there is too much hop bitterness so that's another reason I'd like to dilute it with more wort and blueberries.

I have yet to throw yeast in to finish out the fermentation, I'll probably throw some in within a week. It's been sitting for 6 days so far and it definitely has some sort of pelicul on top. I'll hopefully post some pictures soon and give updates.
 
So you were trying to get a lactic fermentation going by throwing in the grain. Well, I'm not sure if that will work too well. Most lactobacillus are retarded by much more than a few IBUs. And I would think that your Bitter has over 25 IBUs. You could be lucky a have a lacto strain that is not affected by hop acids.
I would taste your half gallon before sinking anymore money or time. If it does have some sourness but other off-flavors you can boil it to drive off most of those flavors and just add extra water during the boil to make up for what you are boiling off.
Are you going to use bottle dregs for your yeast? I'm interested how this works out for you.
 
Yeah it has 30+ IBU's so maybe lacto won't take, but something sure has! I have tasted it and it's getting more of a funk rather than much sourness. I'm not really putting much money into it so I'll just let it go. As for the yeast I'm going to add some windsor that I used for the bitter to try and use some of the sugars and get some alcohol in there to get rid of some of the undesirable cultures.
 
My method did not use 2nd runnings. That was an idea by another poster. What I do is that I take wort from the boil. For some of my beers that I want lacto to be a big contributor then I take the wort out earlier in the boil so that I have very low IBUs (so its like a no boil Berliner). But to be honest most of my beers have just been from an extra gallon of wort that is boiled and cooled with the enitre batch. I make a 6 gal batch and 5 go to my carboy and 1 goes to my experimental gallon with dregs.
So the O.G. of my beers are either close to my preboil gravity or are the same as the rest of the batch.
I assume that the other poster will boil his second runnings down until he reaches the desired gravity.

Ah, I guess I misread that particular post as yours, then. Thanks for clarifying.
 
I also just got into brewing 6 gal batches so that I had an extra gallon to play with. I can get 1 gal bottles at the LHBS for $4 so by the end of the summer my library will prob look like some sort of meth lab.
 
i'm not convinced that all lacto is killed off by high BUs... i brewed an imperial belgian wit (30+ BU) that i did a partial sour mash on to breed lacto and the sour was immediately apparent and then went away after a month in the bottle. it is now back even stronger in a "give me more" thirst quenching way.

i wouldn't call it a sour beer per se, but there is a definite lactic quality to it that makes a high gravity beer feel refreshing...

keep the updates coming - i've got several sours in the pipeline and just picked up a 5 gal. barrel last night which will become a sour barrel (after i brew a stout to "clean out" the wine character)
 
There are quite a few different strains of lactic acid bacteria and some are not bothered by hops. It is just more of a precaution if you are trying to sour with lacto. You just don't know what strain you may be getting.

It is definitely fun to start that pipeline of beer. It makes the waiting process so much easier.

Please post if you have any bottle dregs that you have been successful with.
 
i have a plambic fermenting with RRB supplication dregs right now - haven't tasted it in the last month, but it was like a cherry sweet tart (also very thin tasting which was weird as it hadn't attenuated past 65% yet). i stepped it up from a bottle dreg into a a nice sized starter. that just got a heavy dose of brett-c last week.

there's also my "house yeast" which i'm a little concerned (and excited) about - the starter seemed "off" in aroma (high acetic acid) but when it took hold of the brew, it all went away (weird) - smells great, haven't tasted that one yet and that is mostly sacc strains, but does have JP bam biere and damnation dregs in it along with a heavy dose of brett-c and several sacc strains including pacman and a belgian wit yeast. i'm guessing it has a high dose of pedio considering i've done several lacto cultures and haven't gotten the acetic character. this one will sit for a long while. :(

tomorrow i'm doing a sour stout - we'll see how it goes, i'll be pitching US-05 and dropping in a WL lacto culture 3/4 of the way through primary. no brett or pedio in this one as i want to see what a store-bought sour culture does in lieu of a sour mash.

it'll then go on in a 5 gallon wine barrel for a week or two. i'm not trying to rush a sour, but i figure i can get a good seemingly well aged and attenuated sour in about two months that should improve in the bottle.
 
I have an update on a few more dregs I have used.

Dupont Foret - in a 4% Saison with 20% flaked maize - I didn't have the best success with this yeast. The Saison flavors are there but just very weak. I think I should have built up a bigger starter. I will try this again next year but I will use the dregs from a 750 of the original Dupont Saison
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/06/dreg-series-dupont-foret-saison.html
Dupont%252520Foret%252520dregs%252520in%252520Traditional%252520Saison%252520wort.JPG


The Bruery Saison de Lente - into a Basic Saison grain bill at 1.060 with 5% acid malt. No starter on this one. And still had activity in 24 hours. Have not tasted this one yet.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/07/dreg-series-lente-saison-de-bruery.html
Saison%252520with%252520The%252520Bruery%252520Saison%252520de%252520Lente%252520dregs%252520-%252520Day%2525203.JPG


Fantome Speciale De Noel Saison
- an overly complex dark Saison grain bill. No activity in 2 days so added dregs from Fantôme La Dalmatienne. Then had activity in 12 hours. Tasted recently and has a sharp acetic acid bite which might be from the lag period. Another reason to do starters in the bottles when using dregs. But I have had beers that will mellow with age so we will wait on this one.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/08/dreg-series-fantome-speciale-de-noel.html
Fantome%252520dregs%252520in%252520Dark%252520Saison%252520-%252520Day%2525202%252520no%252520activity.JPG
 
I brewed a baltic porter that stopped at 1.022. I syphoned off a gallon and put it in a jug and pitched RR consecration dregs and didnt see any activity in two weeks. Pitched some jolly pumpkin la roja dregs in saturday night and theres a pellicle as of a few days ago. I just figured since the porter stopped higher than I would have liked, I would experiment with a gallon of it. Dont plan on tasting at this point for at least a month.
 
I finally got around to brewing a batch up, and inspired by you I skimmed a gallon off the top to experiment with. Using vinnie's Belgian Golden strong recipe, this was my first partial mash (1.060). I aded a very small amount of my starter WLP570, along with RR Supplication and Two Brothers Askew dregs. Lots of fermentation and krausen (probably from the sacc). Smells fruity. Looks like there is still a thin layer krausen. It's only been a week, so we'll see what happens. I can't wait to brew again to get another gallon going!
 
Two Brothers Askew? Do you know what's in it?

Good luck and be patient when tasting. I recommend trying a 4 oz sample in your hydrometer every 3 months. And if you want to add anything (fruit, sugar, wort ...) that is the time to do it, plus that will help remove the Oxygen after the tasting.
 
The only description that I've found is:
“ale brewed with Saccharomyces cerevisae and Brettanomyces. Transferred to oak foudre after initial fermentation. Foundre has previously gone through a spontaneous fermentation.”

So we'll see where that takes me. Any reason to believe that I should do anything different because I had a little sacc in there? The bugs/brett should still be able to work on the small amount of sugar left right? I'll question more when the time comes. patience patience patience. haha.
 
It is probably good that there is some Sacc yeast in there. Depending on the viability it will help you get fermentation faster to prevent off flavors. And you will get plenty of contribution from Brett and the other "spontaneous" bugs. Even in super dry Saisons when Brett is added it will make a substantial difference over time.
 
It is probably good that there is some Sacc yeast in there. Depending on the viability it will help you get fermentation faster to prevent off flavors. And you will get plenty of contribution from Brett and the other "spontaneous" bugs. Even in super dry Saisons when Brett is added it will make a substantial difference over time.

Brett produces more off flavors in the presence of Sacc, since it competes with Sacc and stresses the Brett.
 
I have a few comments:
1. By off flavors I was referring to flavors that can be produced before yeast becomes the dominant organism. During the lag period some nasty flavors can be produced by airborne bacterias and molds.
2. I don't think the flavors produced by Brett are considered "off-flavors"
3. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?
 
I think I'm gonna start doing this with every batch I do, only after primary with just a clean ale yeast. With small kids, I can only find time to brew once per month, so its hard to justify having a whole brewday for 5 gallons of funky beer that may not even turn out. If I just rack 4 gallons of each batch into my keg, and one gallon into a jug, I'll have a whole sour pipeline before I even know it.

If I dump in the bottle dregs after primary is complete, would you say the dregs from one bottle of say, Jolly Pumpkin, would be enough to brett & sour a one gallon batch that had a post-primary FG of around 1.012?

Thanks for the idea!
 
Rolly:
I've found, with adding at bottling, which could be considered similar. It will funkify and slightly sour a 1.012 beer. I took a FG of a brown ale from 1.014 to 1.004 and enjoyed the results.
 
Rolly you are in the same position as I am. I only brew once a month, but wanted a way to experiment with sour beers. My sour pipeline has started and it is really great to have a gallon of sour beer a month. It is just enough to bottle about 9 - 12 oz bottles. So this allows you to try these beers over time. Just be careful with hoarding, which I'm getting to that point right now. You find yourself saying this beer just has the chance to be so much better in a few months or a year.

One thing to think about is that a lot of these dregs do have a good amount of Sacc yeast and should ferment just fine on their own. I recently have been making 4 - 6 oz of starter wort to dump into the bottle to get the dregs going before they are dumped into the 1 gal jug (Flame the lip). For example, Jolly Pumpkin dregs have WLP530 yeast and were active in 24 hrs. Also I have found using non-neutral yeast like Belgian yeast gives far more complexity to sour beers. It has to do with the esters and acids changing over time.

If you add the dregs after primary fermentation you will have a more difficult time getting sourness. You will probably get enough funk over time, but not much more than a mild sourness. You can add fruit or maltodextrin to feed the bugs to produce more sourness.

This blog article by ryane is very helpful for producing good sour beers. And you will have several batches so blending is a real possibility and has made my sour beer much better.
http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2011/03/blending-and-fruiting-lambics-my.html
 
so I have about a gallon of wort that I brewed (very low ibu) and not real strong (maybe an expected 4%)

I just bought a bottle of Don-De-Dieu that is on lees. Can I pitch this into the batch. and not pitch any yeast? I left a little room for extra pitchings down the road.

complete newb to this process, but it seems interesting.

What beers work for this type of experiment. I wrote down some of the ones listed in this thread, but am not sure if I have access to those.
thanks in advance
 
so I have about a gallon of wort that I brewed (very low ibu) and not real strong (maybe an expected 4%)

I just bought a bottle of Don-De-Dieu that is on lees. Can I pitch this into the batch. and not pitch any yeast? I left a little room for extra pitchings down the road.

complete newb to this process, but it seems interesting.

What beers work for this type of experiment. I wrote down some of the ones listed in this thread, but am not sure if I have access to those.
thanks in advance

I could be wrong as Ive never tried the beer, but I dont think don de dieu is a sour, its a golden strong, so while you could reuse the yeast it wont be sour or funky
 
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