3 stuck fermentations in a row

I've been brewing all grain for about 4 years. I've used White Labs and Wye Yeast with great results. Recently I moved states and away from my brewing buddies and purchased my own equipment. I'm using the Boilermaker system with a bayou banjo burner. I've done 3 brews, each time I hit my OG targets, and each time the yeast has failed to ferment below 1.029. The first was an ESB, 100% Maris Otter with Wye Yeast London ESB yeast. Mashed at 151 for 60 min, boiled 60 min and hit OG at 1.048. 5 gallon batch aerated with pure o2 and pitched 2 smack packs at 70 degrees. Fermented at 68 for 7 days. Gravity reading was 1.030. I roused the yeast raised the temp and no change. 2 smack packs could not ferment 5 gallons below 1.030.

Next brew was a porter. British pale base malt same yeast mashed at 152 OG of 1.052. 10 gallons. 1 smack pack per 5 Gallon car boy. Fermented at 68 and gradually increased the temperature to 76 for 10 days. Couldn't get below 1.029 after adding nutrients and rousing the yeast.

3rd brew. Thought my water might be no good so i used bottled Deer park water to maybe eliminate that as a factor and brewed an ESB. British 2 row base malt about 19 lbs plus other grain totaling about 23 lbs. Mashed at 152. Boiled 60 min. 10 gallons and OG of 1.054 1 smack pack per bucket. Fermented at 70 degrees 10 days and stuck again at 1.029. I used a different thermometer for the mash temperature to make sure I wasnt mashing higher than I thought creating too much alpha amalayse and unfermentable sugar. Everything was on target pure oxygen before the yeast was pitched and the smack packs were nice and swollen and still nothing but under fermented overly sweet beer. Oh this batch used A different yeast the weye yeast English ale.

Not sure what the heck is going on. Any ideas or suggestions? I can post exact recipes if needed.

I'd be willing to bet your mash temp was too high. Try mashing at 150, and make sure you aerate properly. When was the last time you tested the accuracy of your thermometer?

I'll bet your thermometer isn't reading very accurately. Try calibrating it and report back.

Or calibrate your hydrometer. My old one was off by .006, I had to subtract .006 from every measurement. Use distilled water and a temp adjustment chart.

TimTrone said:

I'd be willing to bet your mash temp was too high. Try mashing at 150, and make sure you aerate properly. When was the last time you tested the accuracy of your thermometer?

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Thanks for the thought, but my mash temps have all been 150-152 max. I dont think the mash temp has been too high and I don't want to go much lower than that unless as part of an acid rest or something.

AmandaK said:

I'll bet your thermometer isn't reading very accurately. Try calibrating it and report back.

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Also a good thought. For my last brew I calibrated the thermometer and used a back up digital probe to ensure accuracy. The temp was reading accurately.

dbrewski said:

Or calibrate your hydrometer. My old one was off by .006, I had to subtract .006 from every measurement. Use distilled water and a temp adjustment chart.

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I'm using a refractometer. I tested it with water but it wasn't distilled. I have some at the house and will give that a try tonight along with a hydrometer reading.

Thanks for the thought.

My guess is underpitching, and on a related note that your yeast viability isn't what you think it is. One smack pack for a beer for that OG range is an underpitch from the start, and would be made worse if yeast viability was a fraction of what is should be...

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that when you moved and switched home-brew shops, and that you'll find they don't treat your yeast as well as your old place...just a guess...

broadbill said:

My guess is underpitching, and on a related note that your yeast viability isn't what you think it is. One smack pack for a beer for that OG range is an underpitch from the start, and would be made worse if yeast viability was a fraction of what is should be...

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that when you moved and switched home-brew shops, and that you'll find they don't treat your yeast as well as your old place...just a guess...

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Underpitching may be an issue, but for one of the batches I pitched 2 packs in a five gallon bucket. That should be plenty of yeast at an OG around 1.050. But still no luck with that batch. All good thoughts but I think I've addressed them in my subsequent brews. The only thing I haven't done is to do a yeast starter with Wye Yeast. I've never had to do one in the past and 2 packs 3 hours after they've been smacked has always been enough active yeast in my experience to ferment 10 gallons in the 1.050-1.070 range. I'm really at a loss here and have eleminated a lot of the potential issues with no luck still. I currently have 10 gallons of ESB sitting at 1.030 after 10 days and lots of manipulation. I'm going to try to pitch some high gravity yeast to help it along so I don't have another watery sugar water beer.

Madkins said:

I'm using a refractometer. I tested it with water but it wasn't distilled. I have some at the house and will give that a try tonight along with a hydrometer reading.

Thanks for the thought.

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you know the alcohol throws off the refractometer reading, right???

2 smack packs for a 10 gallon batch of 1.070 beer is underpricing, and by quite a bit. I would recommend using dry yeast next time, or you can try the mr malty yeast calculator.

What are your aeration procedures? That can also affect attenuation.

The other thought that comes to mind is the amount of fermentation time. For your next brew, leave the beer in primary and on the yeast cake for 2 weeks before you even take a hydrometer reading. You can raise the temp by a few degrees during the last day or so of active fermentation. That will help it ferment out too. Good luck!

Madkins said:

Underpitching may be an issue, but for one of the batches I pitched 2 packs in a five gallon bucket. That should be plenty of yeast at an OG around 1.050. .

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According to Mr. Malty you need 177 billion cells for 5.25 gallons of 1.05x beer. You would be OK if your 2 packs were fresh (at 100 billion each), but if they weren't you still could have underpitched. Which is why I threw the caveat about the yeast viability not being what you think it is. The assumption you are working under is that there is 100% viability (hence 100 billion) cells in that pack at pitching time. There very well may not be.

http://onebeer.net/refractometer.shtml

Use ^^This^ if you have not been to adjust your refractometer reading after alcohol is present, this may be your issue.

One thing not mentioned is your aeration of wort. This is a common problem as well.

Cheers!

duboman said:

http://onebeer.net/refractometer.shtml

Use ^^This^ if you have not been to adjust your refractometer reading after alcohol is present, this may be your issue.

One thing not mentioned is your aeration of wort. This is a common problem as well.

Cheers!

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Good tool, thanks. And thanks for all the tips from everyone else. I'll go back and re-examine my process. After all, 4th time's a charm, right?

duboman said:

http://onebeer.net/refractometer.shtml

Use ^^This^ if you have not been to adjust your refractometer reading after alcohol is present, this may be your issue.

One thing not mentioned is your aeration of wort. This is a common problem as well.

Cheers!

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He stated he aerated with pure O2

You mentioned you added yeast nutrient to try and kick start fermentation. That will not do to much after the yeast has reproduced to where it needed to be. You need to add yeast energizer to combat the stalled fermentation. Even then though this should not be happening, you seem to have everything down right.

The only thing I can think of is the PH of your mash. Even though you get bottled water we would need the water report to see what is going on. The PH if to much out of line could stall enzymatic activity, not only lead to tannin extraction. Have you tried doing an iodine test during your mash? That will at least give you a rough estimate as to where conversion is.

Maris otter and British 2 row I have found have very little acidic qualities and have trouble lowering the PH of my mashes. I usually add some Munich to my English beers, that use a lot of Marris otter, to combat this and lesson the need for lactic/phosphoric acid.

I would get some PH strips if you do not have a ph meter, and see what some yeast energizer can do for those beers.

GodsStepBrother said:

You mentioned you added yeast nutrient to try and kick start fermentation. That will not do to much after the yeast has reproduced to where it needed to be. You need to add yeast energizer to combat the stalled fermentation. Even then though this should not be happening, you seem to have everything down right.

The only thing I can think of is the PH of your mash. Even though you get bottled water we would need the water report to see what is going on. The PH if to much out of line could stall enzymatic activity, not only lead to tannin extraction. Have you tried doing an iodine test during your mash? That will at least give you a rough estimate as to where conversion is.

Maris otter and British 2 row I have found have very little acidic qualities and have trouble lowering the PH of my mashes. I usually add some Munich to my English beers, that use a lot of Marris otter, to combat this and lesson the need for lactic/phosphoric acid.

I would get some PH strips if you do not have a ph meter, and see what some yeast energizer can do for those beers.

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I'm having trouble how you are getting from poor pH to stalled fermentation. Please explain.

Until you check with a hydrometer I would guess that improperly using your refractometer is your isssue. Hydros should be less than $10 at your LHBS so Id go that route until you know you trust the refrac.

Do the beers taste good or overly sweet?

broadbill said:

I'm having trouble how you are getting from poor pH to stalled fermentation. Please explain.

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Could be poor starch conversion due to whack-up pH levels, but I think this pretty unlikely since you have tried with bottled/spring water as well.

There are lots of factors that can affect apparent attenuation but getting a 2nd reading on your OGs (on you next batch) and FGs (on current and future batches)from a hydrometer seems like the most prudent first step.

broadbill said:

I'm having trouble how you are getting from poor pH to stalled fermentation. Please explain.

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Just like other poster mentioned, could be poor starch conversion. Alpha and Bet Amylase work within different PH ranges, if they are off they could work slower or not activate. Leading to a lot of un fermentables in your beer. I also think this is unlikely but is an easy fix just to narrow down the problem.

GodsStepBrother said:

Just like other poster mentioned, could be poor starch conversion. Alpha and Bet Amylase work within different PH ranges, if they are off they could work slower or not activate. Leading to a lot of un fermentables in your beer. I also think this is unlikely but is an easy fix just to narrow down the problem.

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Right, but their activity is primarily determined by temperature. I find it highly unlikely that pH would be responsible for this. More likely faulty mash temp/thermometer reading. The pH being off would cause less conversion period, not more unfermentables I would think.

pabloj13 said:

Right, but their activity is primarily determined by temperature. I find it highly unlikely that pH would be responsible for this. More likely faulty mash temp/thermometer reading. The pH being off would cause less conversion period, not more unfermentables I would think.

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and I would agree with you 100% just like the other poster. Again it is so easily dismissible why even have that as a variable.

Forgive my ignorance but don't most refractometers just measure sucrose? If so, wouldn't you only be measuring the fermentation relative to sucrose?

As H22W stated alcohol throws off your reading. It is my understanding that after fermentation starts you will need to correct for other factors as well by using some equations that someone a hell of a lot smarter than me came up with (Mr. Google should be able to point you in the right direction).

Rudolph said:

Forgive my ignorance but don't most refractometers just measure sucrose? If so, wouldn't you only be measuring the fermentation relative to sucrose?

As H22W stated alcohol throws off your reading. It is my understanding that after fermentation starts you will need to correct for other factors as well by using some equations that someone a hell of a lot smarter than me came up with (Mr. Google should be able to point you in the right direction).

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No it measures refraction, which gives you a readout of specific gravity of a solution relative to water. This would account for both fermentable and unfermentable sugars in the solution, but would be skewed by alcohol.

In general, you should pay more attention to the # of yeast cells you are pitching, and how many you should have. Most texts say you should have 0.75 million cells per mL per degree plato. When you purchase your yeast, use the manufactured date on the pack and plug it into the pitching rate calculator at mrmalty.com.

Also, how are you oxygenating (time, flow rate, type of stone)?

Sounds to me that there's no issue here other than OP thinks he has a problem with high FG because he is using a refractometer to measure gravity after fermentation has taken place and is not correcting the readings for the presence of alcohol. I'm fairly certain that testing those brews with a hydrometer would show that they finished pretty close to expected, especially, since he seems to have pretty good control of mash temps and has verified that his thermometer is reading accurately. Basically, there is no good reason for three brews in a row to be wildly off in FG.

Refractometers are great for taking pre-fermentation readings, but after, the readings must be converted because alcohol is present. If you know this, you're fine, and know what to do to get reliable readings. If you don't, then you'll be like the OP and getting crazy high readings and wondering WTF??? Anytime I see somebody post that their FGs have been consistenly high, not just by a little, but way off, my first thought is: is this guy using a refractometer?

Moral of the story: go ahead and get that fancy refractometer, but don't ditch the hydrometer until you know how to use it.

LLBeanJ said:

Sounds to me that there's no issue here other than OP thinks he has a problem with high FG because he is using a refractometer to measure gravity after fermentation has taken place and is not correcting the readings for the presence of alcohol. I'm fairly certain that testing those brews with a hydrometer would show that they finished pretty close to expected, especially, since he seems to have pretty good control of mash temps and has verified that his thermometer is reading accurately. Basically, there is no good reason for three brews in a row to be wildly off in FG.

Refractometers are great for taking pre-fermentation readings, but after, the readings must be converted because alcohol is present. If you know this, you're fine, and know what to do to get reliable readings. If you don't, then you'll be like the OP and getting crazy high readings and wondering WTF??? Anytime I see somebody post that their FGs have been consistenly high, not just by a little, but way off, my first thought is: is this guy using a refractometer?

Moral of the story: go ahead and get that fancy refractometer, but don't ditch the hydrometer until you know how to use it.

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+1

I really cannot believe some of the suggestions here....Once he stated he was using a refractometer, it was a no brainer. The OP just didn't know he needed to adjust his refraco reading due to presence of alcohol. Plain and simple. Has nothing to do with mash PH, temps, thermo or anything else.

I didn't mean to dismiss the refractometer issue, but just wanted to make sure the OP knows good pitching rate guidelines (since the last 2 batches used 1 smack pack per 5 gallons).

jescholler said:

I didn't mean to dismiss the refractometer issue, but just wanted to make sure the OP knows good pitching rate guidelines (since the last 2 batches used 1 smack pack per 5 gallons).

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And you're 100% correct. It is vital that you pitch enough healthy yeast to get the job done . Just seemed to me that the OP's problem was the refractometer here.

I see you are not doing starters? Or am I just not reading that? You have solid procedure, but I did not read where you made a starter.

Anyway, what is wrong with using S-04 for one of your English beers? I've never had any problems with my ESB's using S-04 as long as I kept them under 1.060. Plus u still need to use O2 and nutrients as u do.

My suggestion..... Bigger starter or move to dry yeast