Fermentation Temperature Control System

Well, I've read and have been told countless times the importance of temperature control during the fermentation process. Several months back I got my hands on an old freezer and got a temperature controller, unfortunately our two year old twin girls require food on a periodic basis and the bride decided that the freezer would now be used for it's intended purposes. So on to new ideas.

I've been looking for another freezer on craigs list but we are pretty limited on room and I would probably have an appendage cut off (one of the functional ones) if I were to bring home a freezer as we are pretty limited on spare space. So I decided to put those 7 years of college studing mechanical engineering to work and devised quite the plan. I will be converting the right end of this:



into a temperature controlled fermentation chamber. I've dropped the bottom shelf to the as low is it will go and have the perfect amount of space for a 6 gallon carboy with an airlock. I'm wanting to create two chambers so that I can lager as well.



The goal here is to have a temperature controlled fermentation system, save money, and save space. The great thing about it is, I have enough scrap plywood to create the walls and a PC power supply. So I'll need insulation, thermostats, refridgeration parts, and hardware for the doors (maybe some stuff to seal the doors too).

I've been scamming some ideas of for the contoller portion from deathweed's posts and will probably try to use a similar concept with regard to using the thermostat with the PC power supply. I'm intending on building things up tomorrow with the wiring to follow shortly after. I'm going to try and do this on the cheap and try to find as much free stuff as I can.

If any of you have any recommendations please let me know.

Sounds like a good idea. Solves the temp problem and saves space and will probably look pretty sweet. Keep us posted.

My only advice is "clean up that mess, good god man"...

FSR402 said:

My only advice is "clean up that mess, good god man"...

Click to expand...

Yes Dear ...The bench is actually the only "cluttered" part. We have a bunch of stuff in the garage but for the most part it's pretty straight

Would this work for cooling?

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008071209103872&catname=&qty=1&item=1-1302

I thought GilaMinumBeer had a great idea and I think it would work in your setup. Just put the mini fridge on the left end of your bench.






I think that would work like a charm for you. Insulate it well and you have a 6 foot beverage cooler!

John

chrisp said:

Would this work for cooling?

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008071209103872&catname=&qty=1&item=1-1302

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I don't see why it wouldn't that is nice. I'll look at that site in more detail...$20 is a great price.

GilaMinumBeer's set up looks really cool too. I wonder if he is getting the cooling he needs by not removing the parts from the fridge and installing them on the cooler box.

Has anyone ever had much success with a small window ac unit? At least with respect to getting the temps low enough to lager.

ok...now its partly framed in...plywood is a bit warped



more to come this evening...I'll be making a mead and insulating...look for more pics in a bit

Twas the Work/Brew/Drinking Day...(girls = twin 2 yr old daughters)

The girls were waiting to help Daddy brew
But bedtime approached as the crying and wailing grew



I put them to bed with a hawler and shout
Then out to the garage to tap the old spout



The work began with a brew and a knife
I started the burner, often fearing for my life

The water was boiling and I covered in Honey
I knew later on the wife would not "Show me the Money"



So I insulated the fridge and took a drink down
All sweaty and grimy, I felt I wore a crown



The neighbors approach with wonder and glee
What concoction this day would they see

Now I'm all dirty and covered with honey
I'm now off to shower, feeling a bit scummy

So if you wonder should I try these three things
Just ask Ol' Jimbob and see how he sings

....Continued on next post

Finally a gift from the neighbors in exchange for a bottle of mead....WOOO WHOOOO

chrisp said:

Would this work for cooling?

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008071209103872&catname=&qty=1&item=1-1302

Click to expand...

Has anyone done the math to figure out how many BTU's of cooling are needed for the typical 5gal fermentor? Looks like that little surplus cooler is rated at 400BTU, is that enough? I know there's some HVAC guys out there just itching to enlighten us. It also includes a pump and stirring motor. The gears are turning, you could pump cooled water to a tub with a carboy sitting in it inside an insulated setup like Jimbob's.

Hey Jimbob, nice setup. Are you going to use the newly acquired fridge similar to GilaMinumBeer's setup, or do a SOF type setup (you mentioned a PC power supply), or even this new little surplus chiller?

eccsynd said:

Has anyone done the math to figure out how many BTU's of cooling are needed for the typical 5gal fermentor? Looks like that little surplus cooler is rated at 400BTU, is that enough? I know there's some HVAC guys out there just itching to enlighten us. It also includes a pump and stirring motor. The gears are turning, you could pump cooled water to a tub with a carboy sitting in it inside an insulated setup like Jimbob's.

Hey Jimbob, nice setup. Are you going to use the newly acquired fridge similar to GilaMinumBeer's setup, or do a SOF type setup (you mentioned a PC power supply), or even this new little surplus chiller?

Click to expand...

My plan was to get into the calculations some time this week as I'm a bit worried about the ability of the fridge I have to cool the volume that I have. I've got an old Heat Transfer book from college and I'm going to sit down one night and put together a spreadsheet. I'll share it with everyone once I'm done so that those designing there own will have some guidance.

My initial thought is that I may have to pull a Tim Allen and beef it up. I want one of the chambers to be a lagering chamber so I may have to add some supplemental cooling. Maybe ice with a circulation fan mounted on top to kind of stir the air and add a bit more effeciency and possibly a damper that I can open and close when necessary that's the future though. For now I'm most concerned about the single chamber. For right now, I usually don't have more than one batch going at a time, but I know that will change soon.

eccsynd, I'm not sure what you mean by an SOF setup. Could you enlighten me a bit? I looked at deathweed's project and was similar to what I was thinking about initially (and still am), I think that is what you are refering to. Also, I haven't seen GilaMinumBeer's setup so I'll take some time and look into that as well.

My plan right now is to get the box insulated and get some good doors on it. I'm planning a Black beer, which I intend to lager. I'd like to have it wrapped up by the weekend so I can brew...keep your fingers crossed.

Like the Hub City Brewery Glass, LOL. I did my internship and brewed there for a little bit with Marks and Richie. I am going to have to enlarge my fermentation space and will just use my chest freezer, but I love your setup man.

WortMonger said:

Like the Hub City Brewery Glass, LOL. I did my internship and brewed there for a little bit with Marks and Richie. I am going to have to enlarge my fermentation space and will just use my chest freezer, but I love your setup man.

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THANKS!!..AND OMG someone know's Hub City Brewery...LMAO

I actually grew up in Lubbock and went to school at Tech. I wasn't into brewing back then and don't know Mark and Richie. I need to get back up there and give their beer a try again. It has been a long time since I've had any of their wares.

Jimbob said:

eccsynd, I'm not sure what you mean by an SOF setup. Could you enlighten me a bit?

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SOF= Son of Fermentation Chiller, the one talked about widely with the ice buckets, fans and such.

Jimbob said:

Also, I haven't seen GilaMinumBeer's setup so I'll take some time and look into that as well.

Click to expand...

Ah, i was just referring to the pics that Nwcw2001 posted on this thread

eccsynd said:

SOF= Son of Fermentation Chiller, the one talked about widely with the ice buckets, fans and such.


Ah, i was just referring to the pics that Nwcw2001 posted on this thread

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DUHH....."slaps forehead"
Yes, I have looked at SOF. In fact, I was going to make it before I thought about the work bench. I was thinking that if I couldn't get what I need from the fridge I have I would incorporate some of his concepts into my chiller and add some ice when necessary. With regard to the pics...sorry my brain is dead today. I should drop him a line and see how his cooling efficiency has been using that small fridge. I'd like to try and get some temperature contol incorporated and then supplement with ice and fans when necessary.

Thanks, for the slap in the head...I'll wake up sometime today, hopefully.

Jimbob said:

I don't see why it wouldn't that is nice. I'll look at that site in more detail...$20 is a great price.

GilaMinumBeer's set up looks really cool too. I wonder if he is getting the cooling he needs by not removing the parts from the fridge and installing them on the cooler box.

Click to expand...

My garage sits at a pretty regular 85-90*F and the box internal temp rests at a constant 60*F in the heat of the day and drops as low as50*F at night.

The trouble with the dorm fridge is taht they are deisgned to have an ambient air temp at approx. 72*F to be it's most efficient. I have found that by blowing air across the coils with a fan I can drop the bottom limit by about 10*F during the hottest part of the day.

As-built the box is ideal for Ales but is lacking for lagering. Given that at it's lowest setting it does cycle off but very quickly cycles back on, a chest freezer is more efficient, IMO, for lagering.

I have plans to move this box indoors to test the suggestion of the ambient air temp effect on efficiency and bottom end cooling capacity.

GilaMinumBeer said:

My garage sits at a pretty regular 85-90*F and the box internal temp rests at a constant 60*F in the heat of the day and drops as low as50*F at night.

The trouble with the dorm fridge is taht they are deisgned to have an ambient air temp at approx. 72*F to be it's most efficient. I have found that by blowing air across the coils with a fan I can drop the bottom limit by about 10*F during the hottest part of the day.

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Being the the most pleasant location on earth, Central Texas...I could only wish for thos 85-90F days. This is one of the concerns with using this small of a fridge. I agree that an additional fan will help a bit. One alternative I'm considering is adding a small window unit AC to the mix. This will help with air circulation and temp. Has anyone had any success with that? While the airflow would be good, I'm not sure I would get the necessary cooling.

eccsynd said:

Has anyone done the math to figure out how many BTU's of cooling are needed for the typical 5gal fermentor? Looks like that little surplus cooler is rated at 400BTU, is that enough? I know there's some HVAC guys out there just itching to enlighten us. It also includes a pump and stirring motor. The gears are turning, you could pump cooled water to a tub with a carboy sitting in it inside an insulated setup like Jimbob's.

Click to expand...

It takes 2856 BTU's to cool a 23l glass carboy full of beer from 30C to 0C.

Paul

Jimbob said:

Being the the most pleasant location on earth, Central Texas...I could only wish for thos 85-90F days. This is one of the concerns with using this small of a fridge. I agree that an additional fan will help a bit. One alternative I'm considering is adding a small window unit AC to the mix. This will help with air circulation and temp. Has anyone had any success with that? While the airflow would be good, I'm not sure I would get the necessary cooling.

Click to expand...

I know some people use th window ac unit to cool a storage cellar. JZ comes to mind on this. I would expect that given the design application of the ac uni that it would work effectively, especially considering that you'd be applying it to a fraction of the square footage it's designed for.

I bet the garage will be hot tho', just from the discharge of the ac unit.

edit: keep in mind too, I took a unit designed to cool 2.5 cubic foot and expanded it to 15.6 cubic foot AND I am making it work out doors. So, I think the 60*F is reasonable for what it is having to handle.

well this is just the thread i was looking for.

I recently picked up a 14.5 conical, but now i need a way to keep it cool. I scored a free dorm fridge and am just waiting for an excuse to yank the guts out. But like mentioned before, Im not sure if that has enough cooling power for what I need. It would be easier to just pick up and old upright freezer, but if I could start another project and maybe save some cash that would be the way Id rather go.

Chimone said:

well this is just the thread i was looking for.

I recently picked up a 14.5 conical, but now i need a way to keep it cool. I scored a free dorm fridge and am just waiting for an excuse to yank the guts out. But like mentioned before, Im not sure if that has enough cooling power for what I need. It would be easier to just pick up and old upright freezer, but if I could start another project and maybe save some cash that would be the way Id rather go.

Click to expand...

Right now this project has cost me $30 (at least since the start)...I'm not including the cost of building the bench 7 years ago. I'd like to keep this under $100 which I think is feasible considering I'm going to get a couple of thermostats and some misc. parts.

My thoughts right now are that the mini fridge stuff will get me down low and consistent enough for ales. I can supplement further with ice to do lagers if necessary, that will certainly mean being more mindful of things and ensuring that I keep lots of good fresh ice cycled in there. Another thought is having a moveable baffle so I could decrease the size of one area and boost my cooling efficiency. So if I lager I could make that space smaller, making it easier to keep cool.

Jimbob said:

Being the the most pleasant location on earth, Central Texas...I could only wish for thos 85-90F days. This is one of the concerns with using this small of a fridge. I agree that an additional fan will help a bit. One alternative I'm considering is adding a small window unit AC to the mix. This will help with air circulation and temp. Has anyone had any success with that? While the airflow would be good, I'm not sure I would get the necessary cooling.

Click to expand...

Read this it has some ideas for you.
http://kotmf.com/articles/coldroom.php?PHPSESSID=7e9cfb0e653af1d2eadf3368bcd5feb9

Chimone said:

well this is just the thread i was looking for.

I recently picked up a 14.5 conical, but now i need a way to keep it cool. I scored a free dorm fridge and am just waiting for an excuse to yank the guts out. But like mentioned before, Im not sure if that has enough cooling power for what I need. It would be easier to just pick up and old upright freezer, but if I could start another project and maybe save some cash that would be the way Id rather go.

Click to expand...

I was thinking about taking the cooling unit out of one these and very carefully bending it to the shape of the conical mount it on the outside with some dense foam as insulation and a Johnson control to regulate the temp of the conical.

niquejim said:

Read this it has some ideas for you.
http://kotmf.com/articles/coldroom.php?PHPSESSID=7e9cfb0e653af1d2eadf3368bcd5feb9

Click to expand...

Well after putting quite a bit of thought into this and reading that article. I think I might change my plan and go with the AC unit. I stopped by a pawn shop on the way home and checked out a couple. One thing I didn't think about with these is that they recirculate room air, rather than cool "outside" air. So it should work very well at maintaining low temps and get me down low enough to lager. The biggest thing here is with the little investment in the ac unit, I'll save tons of time in work. So I think it will be worth the money to get one. I will want to hook up a thermostat to the exterior order to keep from having to open the door all the time. Thanks for the link.

Jimbob said:

THANKS!!..AND OMG someone know's Hub City Brewery...LMAO

I actually grew up in Lubbock and went to school at Tech. I wasn't into brewing back then and don't know Mark and Richie. I need to get back up there and give their beer a try again. It has been a long time since I've had any of their wares.

Click to expand...

Yeah, they closed down and now it is owned by Bighams or J&M. They renamed it the Triple J Chop House and Brewery. Marks left and is brewing for Grand Teton Brewing Company but one of the old HCB brewers is back now. Great beer and finally great food. You have to check it out next time you are in the LBK. I finally moved away from there and now they have a great brewery again, sheesh.

i have posted a link to a chest built buy a guy in houston.

http://home.swbell.net/bufkin/cold_storage_box.htm

he uses a small ac unit. for the size your building that ac would be over kill and most likely cycle too often. I would use at least 1.5 to 2" foam I am using 1.5 with a 1" air gap to ensure i have the right r rating on the foam. and will be using a ge dorm fridge. doesnt have the external coils like gila has. but i plan on making it into a chest though. i need to stop and get me some gorila glue cause it will foam and seal any spaces and i will wrap in sheet plastic as well to keep any leaks gone. doubt yuoll be able to lager in this setup but it should cool enough if you have enough insulation. pull the top of that ply off and fill with blow insulation and that will help out. use 1.5 to 2" on side walls and top. use a fan to blow the cool out from the fridge or at least circulate the air. least this is what i am planning on doing. pics soon to follow when i get some time.

Jimbob said:

Well after putting quite a bit of thought into this and reading that article. I think I might change my plan and go with the AC unit. I stopped by a pawn shop on the way home and checked out a couple. One thing I didn't think about with these is that they recirculate room air, rather than cool "outside" air. So it should work very well at maintaining low temps and get me down low enough to lager. The biggest thing here is with the little investment in the ac unit, I'll save tons of time in work. So I think it will be worth the money to get one. I will want to hook up a thermostat to the exterior order to keep from having to open the door all the time. Thanks for the link.

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dont forget youll have to deal with coil icing.

pen25 said:

dont forget youll have to deal with coil icing.

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That's a very good point...I'm dealing with that now in my kegerator..any suggestions?

UPDATE:
So last night I got a full 2in of insulation cut and roughly installed. I'm going to add some canned foam to seal things up and will install the insulation permantly. I hope I can do that tonight...but there are other things going on and might not get it done.

WortMonger said:

Yeah, they closed down and now it is owned by Bighams or J&M. They renamed it the Triple J Chop House and Brewery. Marks left and is brewing for Grand Teton Brewing Company but one of the old HCB brewers is back now. Great beer and finally great food. You have to check it out next time you are in the LBK. I finally moved away from there and now they have a great brewery again, sheesh.

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I'm up in LBK a lot for work and my family is still up there. Next time I go I'll see what i can do about send you something. I should be up there sometime at the end of August, I'll drop you a PM and let you know.

not sure but if the thing is freezing up i would think it might be time for a recharge. it will build ice inside if its a freezer or have enough moisture. but if the coils are icing up thats usualy charging from what i have been told when my ac froze up a couple years ago. buddy topped it off who is an hvac guy and all was well. also make sure the coils are cleaned.

Most a/cs will ice up if set below 20*C and it's not powerful enough to achieve that.
a/cs work on a 20K differential, at 20C the pipe temp will be 0C and ice will start forming. If the a/c isn't able to reach the set point, it will never cycle off and never defrost and keep running until it's a solid block of ice.
Another fault is poor airflow or high amount of short cycling air.
When using an a/c, it's important to duct the outlet away from the inlet. In small spaces it's just going to sample it's own discharge air temp and short cycle.

paul_h said:

Most a/cs will ice up if set below 20*C and it's not powerful enough to achieve that.
a/cs work on a 20K differential, at 20C the pipe temp will be 0C and ice will start forming. If the a/c isn't able to reach the set point, it will never cycle off and never defrost and keep running until it's a solid block of ice.
Another fault is poor airflow or high amount of short cycling air.
When using an a/c, it's important to duct the outlet away from the inlet. In small spaces it's just going to sample it's own discharge air temp and short cycle.

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O RLY?




(10 chars)

I said there is problems with RACs if the unit is undersized, the controlled space is too small or not insulated enough. If it's sized right so the RAC will cycle off (ie, it's big enough, the room is insulated enough, the load is low enough and airflow is good), you can get away with it, as it will defrost every time the thermostat cycles the unit off.

paul_h said:

I said there is problems with RACs if the unit is undersized, the controlled space is too small or not insulated enough. If it's sized right so the RAC will cycle off (ie, it's big enough, the room is insulated enough, the load is low enough and airflow is good), you can get away with it, as it will defrost every time the thermostat cycles the unit off.

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The problem here is going to be an oversized AC with an undersized space. Please correct me if I'm wrong but would an independent thermostat prevent that?

The main problem with an oversized unit is that it's going to short cycle, and obviously cost more to run for no good reason.
You could duct the outlet across to the opposite side of the cabinet if there's enough room for internal ducting. A sheet metal duct running across the top from the evap discharge with outlets distributing air around the fermenters and the opposite cabinet wall to diffuse air away from the RAC.
O you could try a remote sensor on the opposite side of the cabinet with the bulb in a glycol solution, that will stop short cycling and accurately measure liquid temp, unless you want to put the bulb in your wort.

or i wonder how one of those little portable 1000btu units will work compaired to the window mount? i still think with the foam sealing and air circulation a larger dorm fridge like say the 4cu fridge will work fine. doubt it will lager though. we shall find out when i finish mine this weekend. wont be inthe garage though but i guess i could put it out there to see what it does. the garage gets up to the 100's here in oklahoma.

You guys have made some really good observations and I appreciate the help. I'm really going to put some thought into this as I have not commited and bought an AC unit, but I do have the mini-fridge for free right now. I like the glycol solution idea. The nice thing is I can start off slow and upgrade or improve it along the way. I'll keep you posted and thanks again for the tips.

chrisp said:

Would this work for cooling?

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008071209103872&catname=&qty=1&item=1-1302

Click to expand...

That thing is cool! I just ordered one and am going to see if I can morph it into something useful. For my ferm control setup, I pump chilled water through radiators to cool my fermentation chamber(s). I use ice bottles in a 5 gal bucket o' water as my source of chilled water. Will be nice if this can assist....... Thanks for the link!