Using hop socks/bags

OK, so my brewing partner and I decided to start using grain bags for the hop pellets to reduce the trub in the boil kettle and decrease clogging the manifold when draining.

Anyway, I believe I've noticed poor hop utilization in the last couple of batches we've tried this technique on. Thought: The bags limit the saturation of the hop pellets, thereby decreasing the utilization.

Previous batches rocked, including a couple of great IPA's.

Anyone out there use grain sacks to hold hop pellets? Anyone out there have a similar experience?

Thanks.

I switched FROM using them to just dumping the hops in for the very same reason you noticed...poor hops utilization. I just run the wort through a big strainer that fits nicely over my bucket now instead.

I strain thru cheese cloth.

You're right that hop bags reduce utilization. The decision whether to use them or not comes down to the trade-off between ease of racking (with hop bags) and better hop utilisation (without hop bags). I've brewed both with and without hop-bags, and personally I find it easier to just be able to lift the hops out before racking to primary, as I've had annoying problems in the past with hops blocking up my autosiphon. To compensate for poorer hop utilization I either increase the amount of hops used, or I move the hop additions to slightly earlier in the boil.

I use one hop bag for each hop addition. Normally around an ounce or two per hop bag. I get very nice hop utilization and aroma. I used to not use the bags, but have had no decrease in hops utilization. I think it is important to not stuff the bags with too many hops. I really like not having the huge hop mess at the end of my boil.

You could build a big hop bag. There are lots of ways to do it, but most recommend using a 5-gallon paint strainer, a PVC coupling, and a long PVC pipe (to stabilize it). That lets the hops float around in a larger area than one of the small mesh bags HB shops like to sell.

Check this out:

[youtube]xFxuooOKe4o[/youtube]

I used to use bags - but a got a big strainer and strain the spent hops out. (Before hops got expensive I used to put fresh whole hops in the strainer and strain the boiled wort through them.) My utilization seemed go get better when I ditched the bags.

DuPuma said:

You could build a big hop bag. There are lots of ways to do it, but most recommend using a 5-gallon paint strainer, a PVC coupling, and a long PVC pipe (to stabilize it). That lets the hops float around in a larger area than one of the small mesh bags HB shops like to sell.

Check this out: http://youtube.com/watch?v=xFxuooOKe4o

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OK, now I'm impressed. Thanks for the great tip! I'll fab one up Thrusday evening for Friday's brew.

Thanks again ! ! ! :rockin:

P.S. The guy in the video sounds like the dude from Basic Brewing Radio.

drayman86 said:

OK, now I'm impressed. Thanks for the great tip! I'll fab one up Thrusday evening for Friday's brew.

Thanks again ! ! ! :rockin:

P.S. The guy in the video sounds like the dude from Basic Brewing Radio.

Click to expand...

This guy lives in Michigan and supposedly works in radio....He sounds familiar, I'm sure I've heard his voice on radio stations here...Just can't place him...

His vids are great!

So I normally use hop bags, but I have noticed a decrease in hop utilization. But, I also use an immersion chiller and put it in the boil for the last 15', which would be impossible with this giant hop-sock.

DuPuma said:

You could build a big hop bag. There are lots of ways to do it, but most recommend using a 5-gallon paint strainer, a PVC coupling, and a long PVC pipe (to stabilize it). That lets the hops float around in a larger area than one of the small mesh bags HB shops like to sell.

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Oh yeah! Kiss my hops. :rockin: I am so doing that. That'll be one of those beer innovations where in a few months' time I'll struggle to believe I ever hopped any other way.

[EDIT] Actually, I bet you could do something similar for dry-hopping as well. The one thing I dislike about DH is all the beer you lose when racking to secondary - but if you could just lift out the hops, that would be awesome.

ColoradoXJ13 said:

So I normally use hop bags, but I have noticed a decrease in hop utilization. But, I also use an immersion chiller and put it in the boil for the last 15', which would be impossible with this giant hop-sock.

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Not really. It sits right in the middle of the IC. I use one on my kettle along with my 60ft IC

Revvy said:

This guy lives in Michigan and supposedly works in radio....He sounds familiar, I'm sure I've heard his voice on radio stations here...Just can't place him...

His vids are great!

Click to expand...

Someone was just telling me he was a PM DJ up in the Saginaw area.

I use this...

at 4.5" it's more than enough for an ounce of leaf hops. I have three to cover my needs.

I tried the hop bag deal that Du Puma mentions, (except that I used the bottom few inches of a 5 gallon bucket with a big hole cut into it for the ring instead of PVC. Dishwasher safe!). Brewing an identical batch to one that didn't use a hop bag, there was a dramatic drop in hop utilization, both bittering and aroma. At least with whole hops.

ColoradoXJ13 said:

So I normally use hop bags, but I have noticed a decrease in hop utilization. But, I also use an immersion chiller and put it in the boil for the last 15', which would be impossible with this giant hop-sock.

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Not Necessarily, just lift the hop sack out, put the chiller in, and put the sack back in on top of the chiller. Works just fine in my big, old turkey fryer.

Alemental said:

Brewing an identical batch to one that didn't use a hop bag, there was a dramatic drop in hop utilization, both bittering and aroma. At least with whole hops.

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So which worked better? With or without the hop bag?

Hagen said:

I use this...

at 4.5" it's more than enough for an ounce of leaf hops. I have three to cover my needs.

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Where do get that and how much does it cost? thanks.

I think i remember reading that the hop utilization occurs at the site of the steam bubble wthin the boiling wort. I would guess that if you are going to contain your hops during the boil you might want a slightly more vigorous boil.

For me, I can't be bothered w/ hop sacks and/or strainers. I prefer to just let the hops settle to the bottom, I like gravity, it's free, convenient and extremely reliable. YMMV

Mike

I just throw them in and strain them with a big strainer over the fermenter.
then, worthwhile or not, i sparge the whole mess a little to get every last bit of deliciousness out.

I just dryhopped the first time with cheese cloth and it was great in comparison to dryhopping without it, but it was difficult to get the cheese cloth contraption out of the carboy.

drayman86 said:

So which worked better? With or without the hop bag?

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Without the hop bag was much better. With the hop bag the results were just plain wimpier. Which is a shame because of all the hop bag schemes that I have seen, that one looks the best by far. It is also, by the way, the only hop bag I have ever tried.

how much wimpier? like night and day difference?

Just curious because I've been using bags, and prefer that over just dumping the hops in. I've been using this method because pretty much everything i've read thus far says that hop utilization in the boil vs a bag is pretty much minimal and un-noticeable.


Good thread.

riored4v said:

I've been using this method because pretty much everything i've read thus far says that hop utilization in the boil vs a bag is pretty much minimal and un-noticeable.

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FWIW, I've not noticed any difference in hop utilization since building this paint strainer rig. I've used it for my past 11 batches, and the bag is finally starting to wear out. The only real difference is that I'm able to get a lot more sludge-free wort into my carboy!

I think the key is to use a very strong rolling boil, which we should be doing anyhow.

the strainer you built is the reason that made me ask the question. i currently have a couple small bags, but i just converted a keg and was going to build the big hop bag. After reading his posts, i wasn't reconsidering building one to save myself some potentially wasted money.

i agree with you though.. i love having the the sludge-free wort. i did a no-hop-bag brew recently and was annoyed with having to strain every 30 seconds.

We brewed last Friday, and chucked any type of hop bag, sock, filter, etc. and tossed the hops right into the boil kettle. Our copper manifold did a great job of filtering/straining out most all the hops with very little system losses. I'll post some pics of our manifold in the kettle this coming Saturday after our usual Friday brew session.

BlindLemonLars said:

I think the key is to use a very strong rolling boil, which we should be doing anyhow.

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I think another key factor to look at in this discussion is bags that allow for a good circulation of the wort with in the hops versus bags that are significantly restricting the wort from circulating among the hops, creating a negative effect on utilization/isomerization.

If you throw a bunch of hops into a small bag that keeps them all bunched up and prevents the wort from freely circulating though, you're utilization is going to suffer.

surfingpl said:

Where do get that and how much does it cost? thanks.

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My wife got them for me from an E-bay merchant. They cost around $4 each. When my wife gets back from NY, I'll have her give me the vendor's name so I can posti ti up.

I do believe my utilization dropped a bit when I started using bags but now that I'm aware of it, I accept it and compensate. I use a CFC and just can't have tons of hop debris clogging up the works. I plan to experiment more with offset pickups and whirlpooling on pure pellet hop bills, and using a home made hopstopper on mixed flower/pellet bills. There's just no one size fits all that I'm happy with.

Good Thread.

I have started using hop bags, but have also wondered about lower utilization. It has been difficult to tell on the recent batches I've done, as they have all been on the malty side, I haven't really noticed a loss. With the cost of hops, I definitely want to get all I can out of them... I may just just toss em in there for my next brew, a double IPA, and deal w/ the trub....

+1 no sachels. I used them for about a year, but got paranoid about utilization as well. Now that I see how the hops act in the wort whilst boiling naked, I think they are better off. It's all about surface area, and the straining is just part of the game. I did get one of those tea cage-balls, but have not used it yet. I think its worth looking into a more efficient straining method post-boil, like the as-mentioned cheesecloth or something like that. Dual stage maybe?

In fact, I may use that tea cage to strain with. Mine is spherical, and opens to create two halves. When open, I could run my wort through it on its way to the funnel/screen that I usually use. I'd still be straining but maybe not as many clogs? Gonna need a few more arms, too...

I brew with leaf hops and don't use a bag.

Once the wort is chilled I'll use my autosiphon to transfer to the fermenter. This works fine for a while, but eventually the level of wort in the kettle drops enough that the hops start to impede the siphon. At that point I take a sanitized SS colander/strainer and push that down into the hops, then siphon from inside the strainer. That allows me to get a bunch more debris-free wort. I already had the strainer so it was a no-cost solution that works for me.


Recently, a friend and I brewed a Pliny The Elder clone, and had to use a mix of leaf and pellet hops. We used his hop bag and collar since the quantity of hops is simply massive and we didn't want it soaking up all our wort. Here is a pic just before flameout:



We had just added some of those pellets, but obviously the utilization suffered because the bag restricted the flow. Of course, this bag was crammed as full as could be! If you're going to use a hop bag, make sure you have plenty of room to help your utilization.

I use a Hop bag with no apparent issues. It would seem to me that this is a purely objective view unless someone had a way to measure IBU's. Then a controlled sample could be made with and without the bag and compared.

I reuse my nylon hop bag about 5 to 8 times before I toss it out. It constantly gets darker as it goes along. I could make the leap and say that this is a direct result of the hops staining the bag and therefore there is an evident loss of something. It is my speculation that this is merely chlorophyll and nothing more. Before you ask, I have tasted the bag and it is not bitter. During the boil process I use my spoon to stir inside the hop bag just to keep things in motion. Personally I like not having all that debris in the bottom of the kettle. That way I don't have to wait the 20 min for the whirlpool effect. Once the IC has cooled the wort, transfer and pitch the yeast. Efficiency at its finest!
My two cents
Preston

count barleywine said:

Now that I see how the hops act in the wort whilst boiling naked, I think they are better off.

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HHMMM, interesting;
When the weather gets a bit warmer around here, I'll have to try boiling my wort while naked and see if it helps any.

drayman86 said:

P.S. The guy in the video sounds like the dude from Basic Brewing Radio.

Click to expand...

Revvy said:

This guy lives in Michigan and supposedly works in radio....He sounds familiar, I'm sure I've heard his voice on radio stations here...Just can't place him...

His vids are great!

Click to expand...

His name is Kevin Profitt and he is on 98FM KCQ.

http://www.98fmkcq.com/qcrew/kevin.shtml

I thought I recognized his voice and went searching on Google.

Hagen said:

I use this...

at 4.5" it's more than enough for an ounce of leaf hops. I have three to cover my needs.

Click to expand...

For those who asked, get it at

http://www.liquidplanet.com/estore/product.php?productid=465

Here's the manifold we use in our boil kettle:




Here's the manifold in the bottom of the boil kettle:




Here's the stuff at the bottom of the kettle post-boil. Does a great job of filtering trub, and leaves very little wort behind:

I found by making a knot at the very end of the sock allows the hop pellets to expand and steep much more.

If the sock is too tight against the pellets or plugs it will not be given enough room to open up.

Make the knot as close to the end of the sock as you can. Works for me, and 100 times easier to move.