Beer line tests & solution to the "plastic" taste

Stevorino said:

To follow up - I bought 100' of the Bev-Seal from Better Bottle. The BB people were great and shipped it quickly. I've installed it in a kegerator at about 20ft runs and a keezer at about 15ft runs. Even with the little swizzles in the beer pickup tubes, I am still getting unbearable foam at 12-15psi. My 20psi beer is simply unserveable through the tap.

I'm gonna try out this Tygon stuff and hope that I can finally get a setup that others can serve from as well.

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I have had pretty good luck with tygon tubing. I used 16'/line at 36F and at 15psi I still get a good pour. I would probably cut it down to about 12-14' or so as 16' is a little slow of a pour but I don't mind at all and I get a good poor with the ability to go to a higher pressure without a bunch of new hoses.

The big problem is now I can't find any more cheap sources for tygon. The link posted earlier on ebay has dried up. Let me know if anyone has a source.... I have looked hard.

Are people that are buying the 3/16ID getting 1/4 or 5/16 OD? I can get the 1/4 OD for half the price of the 5/16. Also with this better line how often do the lines need to be changed? Finally, is everyone using special clamps or just putting a piece of thicker tube over the tygon tube and using that to clamp

I bought the 5/16 OD. Otherwise I thought it would be too thin and would collapse easily. Have the 3/16ID by 5/16OD product I would still agree with this. Perhaps someone else has the 1/4OD and can comment.

I have not changed my lines yet. If you clean them between kegs and care for them I can't see why you would need to except after a very long time. I use standard 1/4 hose barb fittings with a standard Home Depot worm clamp. They work great and I'm not sure why other were having problems with this.

spotter said:

I don't have any experience with the swizzles, but I think your line is just too short for those pressures. My testing showed the bev-seal added about .45 psi resistance/ft, so you'd need around 42' to push at 20 PSI.

I use 26' at 12-14 PSI with few problems. I do tend to keep it closer to 12 to keep the first pour from being too foamy (poor temp control on a long line).

The space that much line takes may be an issue, but if you can try a longer run I'd be interested in your results. Good luck.

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The kegerator I have has 3 taps and is at my folks' lake house that we use in the summer. I'll try putting together a couple lines up there and trying it out - although it won't be until May that I refresh the keg supply up there.

I considered ordering a new order of the BB lines, but I really don't want 100+ feet of beer lines flying around in there - it's already a jungle as it is.

ekjohns said:

Are people that are buying the 3/16ID getting 1/4 or 5/16 OD? I can get the 1/4 OD for half the price of the 5/16. Also with this better line how often do the lines need to be changed? Finally, is everyone using special clamps or just putting a piece of thicker tube over the tygon tube and using that to clamp

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I'm with skutmonkey on the 5/16 OD

I was very close to pushing the button on the 1/4 OD. But as someone said in here earlier, if you make a mistake by underordering, you just wasted a ****load of cash. Now that I'm on beer line #3, I bet I've spent nearly $200 on beer lines. Makes me want to barf.

And no, I couldn't find a cheaper place than McMaster and USPlastics. I went McMaster because of good experiences in the past although it looked like USPlastics was cheaper.

stevorino - beer line #3 is that cause there was problems with the other lines or cause you have to change them out cause they are getting dirty. I ALWAYS! run star stans and warm water through my lines after each keg. It seems that since these are pore-less they should last a long time (several years) but i am only assuming this

ekjohns said:

stevorino - beer line #3 is that cause there was problems with the other lines or cause you have to change them out cause they are getting dirty. I ALWAYS! run star stans and warm water through my lines after each keg. It seems that since these are pore-less they should last a long time (several years) but i am only assuming this

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Beer Line 1= Defective MoreBeer Line - beer tasted like plastic water w/ beer added - it was undrinkable.

Beer Line 2= Bev-Seal Line from Better Bottle - beer tasted amazing but came out too fast for someone other than me to easily serve themselves.

Beer Line 3= Tygon, hopefully last line in a while.

Yeah, so I haven't changed any due to crap in the lines yet. That being said, I usually only clean them out once a year w/ BLC, Water Rinse, and then Star San. Probably need to do it more often like you though. After each keg sounds about right and without a doubt decreases risk of infecting the entire new keg.

it seems the tygon is the best. how good is the bevlex 200? i am having a hard time buying $50 worth of tubing

ekjohns said:

it seems the tygon is the best. how good is the bevlex 200? i am having a hard time buying $50 worth of tubing

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I hear ya man - i was not happy to spend the $60+ on what seems like it should be only $10-$20.

My only advice is do it right the first time and be done with it. I've now spent close to $200 on beer-side tubing alone.

Stevorino said:

I hear ya man - i was not happy to spend the $60+ on what seems like it should be only $10-$20.

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I only wish I'd have been as lucky to know what to buy the first time...! I spent hundreds on 10 different types of tubing before figuring this out (and starting this thread)!

Stop your whining...

Kal

Just replaced some keg lines with Perlick Branded PVC line from NB... same vinyl taste leeches into the beer if it sits in the line for more than 20-30 minutes. This is totally unacceptable! I'm just shocked that something from Perlick does this. Beer is what they do!

One word, micromatic.

wildwest450 said:

One word, micromatic.

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do you have a link or part number for said tubing?

-=Jason=-

I'm waiting for some Tygon Silver tubing to come in the mail... Will post a review once I get it and get around to putting it in the keezer.

Bringing this one back...
Heres my deal. I have a 30ft run from the garage keezer to the basement taps. On the fence between building my own trunk line or just buying pre-made. I can get bev-seal ultra for about $27 per 100' roll, and some 5/16" for glycol lines for the same price, from the same place I can get premade trunk with the same tubing for $6/ft, my dilemma is this..
The smallest premade trunk I can get is 5/16", but if I build my own I can get 1/4" and not have to change my tail pieces and shanks (currently 3/16"). What would you guys do?? How am I going to be able to balance this system?

I am also building a glycol system from a de-humidifier.

Thanks!
Bryan

rabeb25 said:

I am also building a glycol system from a de-humidifier.

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Curious about this, are you going to be condensing the glycol? If so, can you share details?

How many lines are you running?

rabeb25 said:

Bringing this one back...
Heres my deal. I have a 30ft run from the garage keezer to the basement taps. On the fence between building my own trunk line or just buying pre-made. I can get bev-seal ultra for about $27 per 100' roll, and some 5/16" for glycol lines for the same price, from the same place I can get premade trunk with the same tubing for $6/ft, my dilemma is this..
The smallest premade trunk I can get is 5/16", but if I build my own I can get 1/4" and not have to change my tail pieces and shanks (currently 3/16"). What would you guys do?? How am I going to be able to balance this system?

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You're right to focus on balancing the system- the happiness you get will be enough to offset minor price differences. A few key things:
- Gravity is helping you, to the tune of about -2.1 PSI.
- 30' of 5/16 is only about 5.1 PSI resistance, meaning 2.9 PSI of CO2 to balance. It'll take forever to pour and flatten the beer in your keg.
- Bev seal gives about 0.45 PSI resistance.

Your options (assuming a 6 foot drop from keg bottom to faucet):
- Push at 12 PSI and use just 5/16", but you'd need 80+ feet of it.
- Push at 13 PSI, use 26' of 5/16" plus 4' pigtails of 3/16" before each tap
- Push at 13 PSI, use 35' of 1/4" bev-seal (less of something with higher resistance).

Given that, I'd recommend a similar setup to mine: Made my own trunk using bev-seal ultra 1/4" for a 25' run (all within the basement). I use a pond/fountain pump for the glycol hooked up to 1/4 tubing. The glycol reservoir and pump is in the freezer section of my kegerator. I used smaller tubing (faster/higher pressure with a smaller pump) and a decent sized reservoir to be sure the glycol is still cold on return.

Lessons learned:
- Decide what PSI ranges you want to push at, then calculate the length of tube you need.
- If the system is just barely balanced in the winter, it will probably be unbalanced in the summer. Balance in mild weather, then adjust as needed.
- With a longer run your biggest enemy for the first pour is heat. Your faucets will want to be close to room temperature, warming the beer as it pours and breaking the CO2 out of suspension. Get longish shanks and wrap them with lots of glycol line. I originally tried copper like Kal (too hard for me to work with, but still used in most of my trunk), then 'ice maker' line (poly? not flexible enough), and I now use cheap very flexible (pvc?) tube from lowes/home depot wrapped completely around each shank.

Good luck!

Excellent! thanks for the response. I will just do 1/4" care to tell me where you purchased the trunk line supplies.. mainly foam and stuff.


Plan on gutting the coils out of the de-humidifier and using the coils submerged into a reserve tank with a pump and a temp controller... I have a spare one I have never used (somehow ended up with one???) so I figure why not.


Thanks

rabeb25 said:

Excellent! thanks for the response. I will just do 1/4" care to tell me where you purchased the trunk line supplies.. mainly foam and stuff.

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Most large building supply place sell 6' lengths for insulating pipes (my lowes keeps it near the ventilation supplies). It has an open seam so it slips over the bundle. I used the thickest one, which happens to have a self adhesive seam. Those are nice if you need to wrap a wide bundle of lines, you can stick two pieces side by side.

Zip tie your bundle together every few feet, put the foam over it, then join the lengths of foam with duct tape. I also used some thick foam to create an insulated "box" around the shanks and some spray foam (most of that was removed in a later revision).

so i bought some tygon b-44-4X tubing (3/16 ID) and am gonna install it this weekend. I split a 50' roll with a friend and I got 2 taps, so 12.5 feet max for each tap. Without the epoxy spacers should 12.5' at 12 PSI and 40 F be fine? too much? or not enough? according the the beer line calculator would need about 5'. right now I have 10' of 1/4" ID tubing and its pretty foamy

i got the tubing in and installed 1 tap with 12.5 ft of tygon b-44-4x and its pretty foamy at PSI of 11 (the beer was carbed at 13 PSI). Im going to try and put some of the 1/4 OD Polyethylene in the dip tube first then look into either the epoxy spacers or a ss spring

I recently replaced some bev flex 3/16 line and with my seltzer it has a small amount of taste. The last hose I got was from chicompany and says foxx equiptment on it. It does not impart any flavor. Anyone else using the foxx line? It is also more flexible when cold.

Can someone help me with balancing my new system?

I scraped the 35ft of trunk line, and glycol in favor of a cheap CL freezer and short runs.

System setup:

CO2:
3/16" shanks
1/4" bevseal ultra 235 (15ft)
3/16 keg posts (if it matters)
From keg to shank about a 1' rise

Nitro setup:
3/16" shank
1/4" bevseal ultra 235 (15ft)
3/16 keg posts (if it matters)
From keg to shank about a 1' rise


I have independent regulators for each keg, and I am going to try to carb at proper levels to style.

Thanks!!!!
Bryan

ExHempKnight said:

I'm waiting for some Tygon Silver tubing to come in the mail... Will post a review once I get it and get around to putting it in the keezer.

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It's been 3 weeks, any update on this?

rabeb25 said:

CO2:
3/16" shanks
1/4" bevseal ultra 235 (15ft)
3/16 keg posts (if it matters)
From keg to shank about a 1' rise

Nitro setup:
3/16" shank
1/4" bevseal ultra 235 (15ft)
3/16 keg posts (if it matters)
From keg to shank about a 1' rise

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To balance the CO2 with that setup you'd need around 25' at 12PSI. Add more line, or check out the sticky on swizzles.

The Nitro with a stout faucet doesn't matter, the restrictor in the faucet should take care of it.

Don't know about you guys, but I picked up some Tygon b-44-4X and was really disappointed. It doesn't impart any plastic flavor like the bevlex, but instead completely oxidizes any beer that sits in the line for a while (1-2 days).

For the price of this line, I actually think I'm worse off than before.

garbs said:

Don't know about you guys, but I picked up some Tygon b-44-4X and was really disappointed. It doesn't impart any plastic flavor like the bevlex, but instead completely oxidizes any beer that sits in the line for a while (1-2 days).

For the price of this line, I actually think I'm worse off than before.

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I thought it was just me. You are right, the beer tastes like butt in a couple days sitting in 11ft of line. I waste a ton of beer, since when we have guests coming over I take a pitcher and dump the beer in the lines out of the 10 taps I have here. Otherwise, I found people were taking a sampler glass of that nasty and thinking that's what I was brewing. If you pull a full pint, it's less noticeable, but still there. So you think it's the b-44-4X and not just a common problem of lines in general? If so.. does anyone want over a 100 ft of this line?

I don't remember ever tasting this level of oxidation with the bevlex 200. It might have something to do with the fact that the tygon isn't thick walled, but I'm contemplating ripping the lines out yet again and starting over.

I was considering the b-44-4X tubing, but now people are reporting that its not helping and you still have to pour some out? Is this still the case? I really don't want to use this inflexible tubing... seems like its a hassle to work with, and considering i'd need 25' of it per tap (4) that it'll be hard to get me setup on it.

Anyone with experience in changing to this, was it hard to do? Seems like since its not bendable, i'd have a hard time getting it to my taps. I can't believe after reading 19 pages of this thread i'm still confused what to replace! I don't mind dishing out $ for it, i just don't want to have to replace them again... its driving me nuts that there isn't a perfect solution to this!

Side note:
For those not noticing the flavor difference, I never did until I hooked up my german pilsner to it. The first 2-4oz almost made me gag, and the next 12oz pour was perfect. It goes bad fast too, within atleast 12 hours (i'm betting its even sooner i'd need to test). I'm guessing the other beers I did this too were just so flavorful that it didn't impact it as much. With a light lager, its extremely noticeable.

JRems said:

I recently replaced some bev flex 3/16 line and with my seltzer it has a small amount of taste. The last hose I got was from chicompany and says foxx equiptment on it. It does not impart any flavor. Anyone else using the foxx line? It is also more flexible when cold.

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I'm using it, no flavor. But with big IPAs, I'm not certain I could taste it anyway.

RichBenn said:

I'm using it, no flavor. But with big IPAs, I'm not certain I could taste it anyway.

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I switched back to the foxx brand line. The bev lex just tasted too plasticy. Especially with seltzer it was very noticeable.

So I purchased 100F of bev-seal ultra. I installed 27FT of 1/4" lines since thats all I could get... my setup is 10PSI at 37F which I caculated way over to start. The beer FLIES out so fast... its worse than my previous setup of 12PSI at 40F with 8FT lines 3/16"

I did this change for the non-plastic taste (still waiting for the beer to sit in the lines for more than 24 hours), but i'm really disappointed in the flow now. What the heck am I doing wrong??

Well you could get those little spiral thungs and insert one or two into the dip tube.

weirdboy said:

Well you could get those little spiral thungs and insert one or two into the dip tube.

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I've already ordered those to test it out... should come in soon. I just find it crazy how difficult it is balance a system. It makes me wonder if my temperature and pressure is not reporting correctly. It seems correct to me though, and i've entered beers into competition and haven't had problems with carbonation before.

I too use 1/4" Bev-Seal Ultra, and I put ~30' line on each tap after reading here how little resistance these lines offer. I'm glad I did, because at 44F and 8psi, my beer pours very quick, but acceptable. Good luck getting it dialed in.

I've read through this thread again and didn't find an answer to thoughts on the gas tubing. There seems to be this perception that it has to be bigger - meaner tubing because it is gas, but pressure is pressure. My gas tubing smells/tastes like crap and I can't believe the CO2 isn't picking up some of that.

Other than identification purposes, why is the gas side always a different hose? I can understand in a commercial setting where the beer is already carbonated. There would be minimal infusion of the potentially tainted gas. But many of us homebrew folks are carbing up from the CO2 system.

So is there a general recommendation as to which brand and dimension of beer line will work the best?

I have read about people using polyethylene plastic tubing for their soda lines and I want to know if I can also use it to replace my beer lines in my keezer. I have tried "googling" for an answer but many of the responses refer a generic type of "poly" tubing and not specifically polyethylene plastic.

McMaster-Carr carries this tubing (as referenced in a thread about soda) for 15 cents/foot. It is not a clear type of tubing that I am use to for kegging.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#5181k42/=d90lzr

Any idea if this material is appropriate for homebrew? Thanks

msa8967- i'm organizing a group buy of 3/16 bev-seal ultra. See the equipment discussions for info.

lmnop said:

It's been 3 weeks, any update on this?

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Well, it's been several months, but I've finally got my keezer up and running.

So far, with 12.5 feet of 3/16" Tygon Silver tubing, I have not noticed any off flavors. The longest the beer has sat in the line is roughly 24 hours.

I'll try to let it sit longer, but the novelty (read: awesomeness) of having beer on tap in my own dining room makes it difficult. I'll report back when I've been able to let it sit a few days.

I really need to find a solution that works for me. I've had my keezer running for 2 weeks and, like others, I hate pouring out the first few ounces. I really don't want to have 20+ ft. of line to run 10 psi. I also don't want to use thin walled tubing like tygon because I've heard it can cause oxidation.

What are my other options? Is there tubing that looks and operates the same as generic 3/16 line, but has at least less plastic taste?

I'd like proof for your claim that thin-walled tubing causes oxidation.

The Tygon Silver 3/16"ID tubing has been great so far... No discernible plastic (or any other off-) taste at all. The only downside I've come across is that it's expensive compared to other lines.

And regardless of the brand of tubing, you're still going to have to balance the system, so you may well end up with 10+ feet of tubing. You can just stuff it all in the keezer, and have a ball of beer-line spaghetti, or you can take the time and keep everything coiled and wrapped, and it'll be neat and organized. That's up to you.