Big TX Home Brew E-Herms Build Out

*** Plenty of pictures to come ***
Hey all, its been a while since I posted last, but it comes with moving I guess. I've moved to Houston in May and have been busy brewing away since. Built a slick glycol fermentation setup with room to grow, and have been relying quite heavily on my propane heated, single tier setup that I built last year. To sum a rather long story up, wife and I have come to agreement, I get to take a portion of my Christmas bonus this year and finally go all electric, and finish taking over half of my garage in the process.

Today I finalized the plans, once I picked up the breaker and Spa GFI disconnect at Home Depot I knew it could be done.

Here is a before shot of the brewery.


As well as my slick FermTroller fermentation setup:


Where it is ALL going to end up:


Keep in mind, I'm literally taking that entire wall in my garage and turning it into a brewery now.

The plans for this build:
- BCS control (no switches on the panel, since full computer in garage, plus tablet in reserve), K.I.S.S.
- ALL STAINLESS (including the HERMS coil), I'm done with copper; here in Texas copper is bad, too much humidity or something
- K.I.S.S. so the wife can even brew when she so chooses.
- Use as much from the original setup as possible
- Simple, but solid parts (taking a point from Kal's Electric Brewery build here)
- Plumb the water in so no garden hose is necessary for brewing!

Supplies for new build already obtained:
5500w Heating elements ULWD
50a Spa Disconnect with GFI
50a Breaker for panel
40a, 120v 2 pole contactors, (2)

Currently have:
3 kegs, great shape, mostly ready to go, 6 holes to cut maybe
-- From the currently functioning brewery
2 rocking pumps from Chugger, with recently replaced impellers and gaskets
Pumps wired via locking NEMA plugs, therefore have the plugs and outlets for the pumps
Couple spare 22mm pilot switches, will use these for power on/off on entire control box, plus maybe use my e-stop as well

Being that I have been busy adjusting from Wyoming to Texas brewing, I have a few other slick features to this brewery that I'll show off as well, once I implement them (just bought the last part over Thanksgiving).

Can't wait to see the results. I'm planning on making a similar move in the next year. I'll following your.progress as I build my blueprint.

Sounds like you've thought this out. Have fun!

Can you share some info and pics on how you built your fermentation chambers? I'm hoping to do something similar in the basement of the house we're moving into in a couple of months!

hatfieldenator said:

Can you share some info and pics on how you built your fermentation chambers? I'm hoping to do something similar in the basement of the house we're moving into in a couple of months!

Click to expand...

Hatfieldenator, I put a bad name on the thread, but here is the build thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/new-brewery-texas-252146/

I think it is current, I'll double check. If anything, a lot should happen in the next few weeks (in addition to what I did last month) at which point I'll update it even further. Any questions, of course, ask.

Quick update though, my glycol runs at 32 degrees with 1 gallon of antifreeze mixed, and the boxes get down to +10 of that. Carboys have been successfully dialed into +/-1 degree of desired temperature. Ultimate plan however is conical fermenters; but that's at least another year out.

Okay, so for the electrical gurus, I'm sort of stumped on perhaps the biggest step. I can get the power to my kegs but I'm not quite sure how I want to get my power to my control box yet, and once inside, how to distribute for that matter. I've looked at several different methods, Tiber_brew, Kal, and more recently BigBobsBrews, but I'm sort of stumped as to what would work best for this. Like I said earlier, I want to keep it simple, but safe.
I don't really want to drop $100/$200 on breakers and things. Any one have any recommendations? Once I have Visio re-installed I'll upload my current plans on this build.

I'm not sure I understand. If you already have the GFCI disconnect it is just a matter of:

a) Wiring up a 4-wire dryer plug to feed power into the GFCI panel
or
b) Permanently installing it to the main panel using normal 10/4 wire.

From there you can either permanently wire it your BCS/control panel or using outlets and inlets.

I would reconsider building a compete brewery with only BCS control. If your computer locks up or fails to communicate with the BCS you could be In big trouble quick. In my opinion having mechanical switches would be the KISS method and very easy to add between your relays and devices. I love the BCS but the response time is lacking at times and commonly needs to be refreshed. A couple of seconds can make all the difference when a pump runs dry, line pops off or a kettle is approaching boil over. I use on/off/auto configuration so I can override the BCS as needed or operate devices independent of the BCS. Just a thought, good luck with your build.

I'm not to worried about my computers locking up, never been a real issue for me. I will probably use my current switches and E-Stop from the old build in the new setup. Use the switches as on-auto or off. In other words, as long as the switch is on, the auto will work, other wise I can quickly shut the power off. As for the boil over, not sure an on off switch would really help here.

As for the power distribution inside, I given the okay by SWMBO for individual breakers as used by Ohio-Ed and TiberBrew. Once we realized what they cost, it was worth it to go that route. I'm right now researching the din-rail terminals as a possible solution for clean looking control box as well since I have 7 ft of DIN on order now.

Another question now is whether or not my NEMA box is too big. Stainless steel 24wx30hx12d. It was free, so I'm leaning towards using it, but there will be A TON of free space in this thing.

hatrickwah said:

Another question now is whether or not my NEMA box is too big. Stainless steel 24wx30hx12d. It was free, so I'm leaning towards using it, but there will be A TON of free space in this thing.

Click to expand...

NOT 'free space' - room for future expansion!

Looking forward to watching this come together!

Okay, so here is the tentative plans for the high voltage wiring. I'll use the Din rail breakers from Automation Direct, [2] 2-pole 25a breakers for my 5500w elements, and [2] 1-pole 15a breakers for the pumps, BCS, switches and LEDs. After more thought, I'll use auto-off-on on the pumps, but the elements will simply be on or off. I would like to have the LEDs light when the element is actually on, but not sure how to safely wire the LEDs into that circuit.

hatrickwah said:

I would like to have the LEDs light when the element is actually on, but not sure how to safely wire the LEDs into that circuit.

Click to expand...

you would need a power transformer to step 120v AC down to 5v DC which most LEDs use. you can either build your own simple circuit if you are handy like that, or just wire up a cell phone charger to switch on and off in parrallel with the heater, and use the output of that to run a LED.

I was able to answer my own questions this morning, I knew Kal had something on TheElectricBrewery.com. Turns out I need to modify my diagram a little, and add 2 220v LEDs:

hatrickwah said:

I've looked at several different methods, Tiber_brew, Kal, and more recently BigBobsBrews

Click to expand...

Wow, I'm honored to be mentioned with those guys.

One thought though, I don't see a power in contactor in your visio diagram, do you plan to use the breaker for On / Off control? I'd recommend you add one, like in kal's diagram (although that ones only rated for 30 amps, you would need 50+). I got a 60 amp contactor similar to this for the same purpose $20 shipped so keep an eye out (and its huge, so it'll help with that "free space").

Overall it looks like you have a solid plan, so keep us updated & the pics coming.

Oh & also, I really like that glycol setup you made.

I'm considering adding a BCS to my system at some point down the road, so the more I can learn about it here the better.

BigBobsBrews said:

Wow, I'm honored to be mentioned with those guys.

One thought though, I don't see a power in contactor in your visio diagram, do you plan to use the breaker for On / Off control? I'd recommend you add one, like in kal's diagram (although that ones only rated for 30 amps, you would need 50+). I got a 60 amp contactor similar to this for the same purpose $20 shipped so keep an eye out (and its huge, so it'll help with that "free space").

Overall it looks like you have a solid plan, so keep us updated & the pics coming.

Oh & also, I really like that glycol setup you made.

Click to expand...

For now I'm leaving it without the power in contactor. I should have the room to come in later if I so choose, but as the drawing shows, initially I'll use the e-stop to shut off the controlling power to everything except the BCS unit. With the breakers in between the source and the equipment I feel fairly comfortable leaving the box hot. Could easily add it down the road if I plan well.

Updated electrical drawing, again, only the high voltage. I'll worry about the BCS wiring with regard to communication with the SSRs when I finally order the box and have it in my possession.


I am so ready to pull the trigger on my orders, but must wait. I'll put up the parts list here shortly. It will show everything I have to order now, therefore excluding the parts that I already have. At some point maybe I'll update my spreadsheet to reflect those pieces as well.

Would this diagram help you?

(As always - click on the image to see a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper 11" x 17")

shouldn't each 5500w element have a 30a breaker instead of a 25a?

52pickup said:

shouldn't each 5500w element have a 30a breaker instead of a 25a?

Click to expand...

Why?
A 5500W 240V element draws 23A.

Ok... a 240v 5500w element averages 23a.

I don't know about your neck of the woods, but at my house my "240" line averages closer to 220 actual volts. So, 5500w/220v= 25a = popping breakers everytime you blink.

P-J said:

Would this diagram help you?

(As always - click on the image to see a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper 11" x 17")

Click to expand...

Thanks P-J, I was using yours from Tiber_brew's build. Honestly, both are working for me. I'm trying to keep the switches and LEDs to a minimum with this build. For instance, I don't want the function of being able to turn the element on and by-pass the BCS controller (if my wife brews, I can already hear the element popping in my mind). I'll also be programming BCS such that it won't fire both elements at the same time, but if it becomes an issue, I can always replace the ones I bought with smaller ones so the 50a circuit can handle it easily.

The question from 52pickup brings up one I had, do I need to go with 25a or 30a breakers for the elements? I just checked my wall power, turns out TX may be kicking out a little extra voltage, I was showing 130v (260v?) on my meter (steady). I'll double check at the panel later on my a/c circuit.

52pickup said:

Ok... a 240v 5500w element averages 23a.

I don't know about your neck of the woods, but at my house my "240" line averages closer to 220 actual volts. So, 5500w/220v= 25a = popping breakers everytime you blink.

Click to expand...

It does not work that way.
A 240V 5500W element on 220V will draw less than 22A.

Ohms Law.!!!!

The advertised wattage is the optimal wattage at the desired 240v draw based on the resistance of the element. The element is actually stamped with 5500w at 240v, 4000w at 208v, so...

The irony is, the breakers are the same price whether I choose 25a or 30a. Its really a question of how close to cut it. I'm leaning to the 30a but feel more comfortable with the idea of the 25a, but I say that knowing I also have the 50a GFI on the back end as well. I'll likely go 25a.

Touche' :cross:

Too many beers for me - got my ohms, watts and such all discombobulated.

However, if the OP says he is showing closer to 260v - that would put him at alomst 25a - no?

52pickup said:

Touche' :cross:

Too many beers for me - got my ohms, watts and such all discombobulated.

However, if the OP says he is showing closer to 260v - that would put him at alomst 25a - no?

Click to expand...

That's what has me still pondering tonight. I'll check the panel tomorrow. I still have time, nothing ordered yet.

If you are receiving 260V on your lines, you NEED to call your power company. That is a real problem with THEM.! Be sure to measure your voltage between the 240V posts in the breaker box.

P-J said:

If you are receiving 260V on your lines, you NEED to call your power company. That is a real problem with THEM.! Be sure to measure your voltage between the 240V posts in the breaker box.

Click to expand...

That's where I'll head tomorrow. Definitely wouldn't want to be out there today, just a bit of rain in the past 24 hours.

Yes. Do not do that in the wet and also in the dark. Not worth the risk.

Please let us know what you measure. (I'm interested.)

P-J

hatrickwah said:

The irony is, the breakers are the same price whether I choose 25a or 30a. Its really a question of how close to cut it. I'm leaning to the 30a but feel more comfortable with the idea of the 25a, but I say that knowing I also have the 50a GFI on the back end as well. I'll likely go 25a.

Click to expand...

choose whatever size breaker that your wiring can support. if your wire size can only support 25A before overheating past a point where you are comfortable, then that is the breaker you use. if your wire can handle 30A, use that breaker. it has nothing to do with any particular device you are connecting to it. a breaker is meant to protect the wiring from melting in the event you draw too much current. underprovisioning is a waste of money (well maybe not if they are the same price, but still...), and overprovisioning subverts the entire function of having circuit protection.

audger said:

choose whatever size breaker that your wiring can support. if your wire size can only support 25A before overheating past a point where you are comfortable, then that is the breaker you use. if your wire can handle 30A, use that breaker. it has nothing to do with any particular device you are connecting to it. a breaker is meant to protect the wiring from melting in the event you draw too much current. underprovisioning is a waste of money (well maybe not if they are the same price, but still...), and overprovisioning subverts the entire function of having circuit protection.

Click to expand...

At the moment nothing has been bought, but now that you bring up wire. I'm getting mixed information, and not sure how I want to procede. I plan to use 8awg stranded between the breaker and the spa panel, 30ft, outside in conduit, or at least that was the plan. If you research the wire, manufacturers and retailers all vary.

hatrickwah said:

At the moment nothing has been bought, but now that you bring up wire. I'm getting mixed information, and not sure how I want to procede. I plan to use 8awg between the breaker and the spa panel, 30ft, outside in conduit, or at lease that was the plan. Today I'm wondering if I should be using 6awg wire.

Click to expand...

Above 40 amps you should be using the 6awg. Especially considering that it's a 30 ft. run.

hatrickwah said:

At the moment nothing has been bought, but now that you bring up wire. I'm getting mixed information, and not sure how I want to procede. I plan to use 8awg stranded between the breaker and the spa panel, 30ft, outside in conduit, or at least that was the plan. If you research the wire, manufacturers and retailers all vary.

Click to expand...

How much wattage do you plan to pull? That will determine how big your breaker and wiring needs to be.

I used a 50A breaker and 6 ga wire so that I could run 2 pots at once.

FUSE MINIMUM WIRE
15 #14
20 #12
30 #10
40 #8
50 #6

There are exceptions but for our purposes, this should get you by.

Theoretically, I'm only planning on running one element at a time, but I'm building such that I could run 2 in case. I found online that there are actually grades of insulation that impact the amperage allowed. I can run 55a on 8awg, but it has to have the top level insulation 90 degree C. I will likely go 6awg. Fun will be fishing it all through the conduit.

hatrickwah said:

Theoretically, I'm only planning on running one element at a time, but I'm building such that I could run 2 in case. I found online that there are actually grades of insulation that impact the amperage allowed. I can run 55a on 8awg, but it has to have the top level insulation 90 degree C. I will likely go 6awg. Fun will be fishing it all through the conduit.

Click to expand...

This is only used in derating. The NEC lists the minimum wire size based on fuse/breaker size.

lschiavo said:

This is only used in derating. The NEC lists the minimum wire size based on fuse/breaker size.

Click to expand...

Gotcha, glad I budgeted for 6# then.

So i checked my 240v service on my dryer. Confirmed, my voltage is 270v. Any ideas anyone? Why so high?

I have no idea what to make of that, but I'm curious do your 120v outlets read 135v?

BigBobsBrews said:

I have no idea what to make of that, but I'm curious do your 120v outlets read 135v?

Click to expand...

Everything is as any other home. Nothing is marked any different. Thinking this is Houston's idea of 120/240 and i'll just have to roll with it. I am using 10# wire on the elements anyway, so 30a breakers inside, should be all okay.

hatrickwah said:

So i checked my 240v service on my dryer. Confirmed, my voltage is 270v. Any ideas anyone? Why so high?

Click to expand...

Is your meter accurate? If it's digital, I have a few that are all over the place. I have a good old analog meter that I use when it's critical. Test with another meter if you can.